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A Fire Battle! Marowak Shows Up! (977)

thor94

Well-Known Member
Without that Latios feat, I doubt fans would have considered Pikachu Ash's strongest upto that point.

And though Rowlet and Rockruff aren't experienced, but pulling of a win against Olivia would mean that the assessment of their strength would be quite different after that.
Even with latios, pikachu is not really ash strongest pokemon since his power is inconsistent (for example, in unova, league pikachu was not even strong enough to be considered part of ash A-team or even top10 and in kalos greninja was obviously stronger than pikachu). ash owned (means not released) strongest pokemon was and will always be charizard.

To come back to the topic. a bit disappointed that again, ash only played supporting character for the totem challenge.
Like others, i hope ash will lose his trial and take a legit totem challenge for fire crystal, otherwise it would sound like the all kanto pity badges again (free pass for random good deed).
Given the turn of the events, i bet ash won't probably take the jungle totem challenge too and will only play supporting character for mallow.
 

JLK2707

Well-Known Member
I'm surprised that they didn't have the Fire Trial on Akala Island. I wonder why that is. I thought that for sure that Ash would just end up battling Totem Salazzle and get the Firium Z.
 

Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
Not only Alolan Marowak, even Pikachu exploited it brutally. If your weakness is too easily exploitable by your opponent, then you aren't that strong because then you're going to end up losing many battles. I'm not saying Turtonator's weak, but it isn't that strong either.
So one may be a scientific genius in most sciences, but the one discovers one is not so good at chemistry. Does that make one an idiot now? That is kind of what you are arguing here, and it doesn't really make sense. Turtonator has a weakness that can be easily exploited, and therefore it's not strong? Even the strongest Pokémon has a weakness that can be exploited. However, you can overcome your weakness with strategy. That's what this episode was about--Kiawe and Turtonator learning to overcome Turtonator's weakness (its lack of speed) with strategy. And that was the point of Ash and Kiawe's battle. Pikachu is much faster than Turtonator, so that training battle was a chance for Kiawe and Turtonator to develop a strategy to counter a speedier Pokémon.

True, Turtonator probably isn't as strong as Pikachu, but that's because Pikachu is a freakin' god among its species. As Akkipeddi said, at this point, Pikachu would fry everyone else's Pokémon. Turtonator being weaker than Pikachu doesn't mean it's weak; it just means Pikachu is just that strong.

As for Alolan Marowak, for starters, we can't assume a Pokémon is weak just because it's wild. Secondly, its power was boosted by the Wela Crown.

Some great fighters can be really put off their game when put in a strategy they are unused to. Remember what happened to Torterra.

Turtonator was used to just being able to tank all speedy opponents because that is the usual ratio of things; speedy but weaker Pokemon. I suspect he could sumo stronger slower Pokemon (actually I'd love to see a battle like that in action). This episode was about Kaiwe having to work out of his usual comfort zone with Turtonator.
This right here. Turtonator is strong, but it's also slow, so it got used to tanking speedy opponents, because typically, speedy Pokémon are weaker. Alolan Marowak was an exception due to the power boost from the Wela Crown, and its speed combined with that increased power threw Turtonator off its game.

To come back to the topic. a bit disappointed that again, ash only played supporting character for the totem challenge.
Like others, i hope ash will lose his trial and take a legit totem challenge for fire crystal, otherwise it would sound like the all kanto pity badges again (free pass for random good deed).
Given the turn of the events, i bet ash won't probably take the jungle totem challenge too and will only play supporting character for mallow.
Alolan Marowak wasn't a Totem Pokémon, and this wasn't a Trial. This was an episode focusing on Kiawe and his Turtonator, and that resulted in Kiawe catching Alolan Marowak. This had nothing to do with Ash's Island Challenge. Where do people get the idea that this episode was a Trial episode?

The summary for SM35 states that Ash is going to battle Totem Lurantis, so that more or less confirms that Ash is the one taking on the Lush Jungle Trial, not Mallow.
 

345ash-greninja

Auto-Memories Doll
Even with latios, pikachu is not really ash strongest pokemon since his power is inconsistent (for example, in unova, league pikachu was not even strong enough to be considered part of ash A-team or even top10 and in kalos greninja was obviously stronger than pikachu). ash owned (means not released) strongest pokemon was and will always be charizard.
If you consider Pikachu inconsistencies, then things are different, but considering Pikachu's peak feats, it's the strongest upto the point in the Sinnoh League where it tied with Latios. That was my point.

But considering the series as a whole, I'd currently say Greninja (Ash-Greninja obviously) was the strongest Pokemon Ash ever owned, because I think none of Ash'a Pokemon has shown a better feat than going toe to toe with a Champion's ace and literally overpowering it(which Greninja did against Mega Gardevoir). But if you consider Pikachu's inconsistency and released Pokemon(which Greninja is), then Charizard's Ash's strongest.
 

Daniel31

HopingGaryReturns
Don't kid yourself here, there not stronger then Turtonator, just because they beat Totem Lurantis does not make them stronger then Turtonator.
I have to agree here.

Not only did the Alolan Marowak have a power up boost from the crown, but one also has to look at the fact, that Kiawe (Turtonator's trainer) is more to blame than Turtonator itself. Turtonator may have had a problem with Marowak or Pikachu's speed, but that's not Turtonator's fault, it's up to the trainer (Kiawe) to TRAIN his Pokemon to be able to deal with that disadvantage at the time, which he later does, by training with Ash. So, I wouldn't say Turtonator is weak at all, because it did tank quite a few attacks in both battles.
 

Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
I have to agree here.

Not only did the Alolan Marowak have a power up boost from the crown, but one also has to look at the fact, that Kiawe (Turtonator's trainer) is more to blame than Turtonator itself. Turtonator may have had a problem with Marowak or Pikachu's speed, but that's not Turtonator's fault, it's up to the trainer (Kiawe) to TRAIN his Pokemon to be able to deal with that disadvantage at the time, which he later does, by training with Ash. So, I wouldn't say Turtonator is weak at all, because it did tank quite a few attacks in both battles.
You bring up a very good point here and I'm surprised no one else has brought this up. As Turtonator's Trainer, it's up to Kiawe to develop strategies to counter as many of Turtonator's weaknesses--its lack of speed, its bulk, etc.--as possible. The fact that he didn't is Kiawe's fault, not Turtonator's, and doesn't really reflect on Turtonator's power. Pokémon can be naturally strong, but if they have a bad Trainer, then they are going to appear weak, even when they are not.
 

Xuxuba

Well-Known Member
Did you misread my post that you quoted? I said I do believe the battle against Totem Wishiwashi in SM33 was the Brooklet Hill Trial--just that Lana completed that Trial instead of Ash. So, no, I don't agree with you.

Not really, you're the one who misread my post. I was just trying to make you see that you can believe it was a trial, but you can't say for sure based merely on assumptions of what Olivia's intentions were. You are basically saying you know for sure it was a trial, even though you have no way to prove that Olivia's intention was to test Lana nor you have any canon statement that a trial isn't a task required to face the Grand Trial (like Rotom said), but rather just a pokemon battle where the winner receives a z-crystal at the end.
 
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Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
Not really, you're the one who misread my post. I was just trying to make you see that you can believe it was a trial, but you can't say for sure based merely on assumptions of what Olivia's intentions were. You are basically saying you know for sure it was a trial, even though you have no way to prove that Olivia's intention was to test Lana nor you have any canon statement that a trial isn't a task required to face the Grand Trial (like Rotom said), but rather just a pokemon battle where the winner receives a z-crystal at the end.
You can't say for sure that Brooklet Hill was not a Trial, either. It had all the key elements of the Totem battle portion of a Trial: a Totem Pokémon; an ally Pokémon; and a Z-Crystal reward after the Totem was defeated. Unless it's stated it wasn't a Trial, then we don't have any reason to assume it wasn't.

But this really doesn't have anything to do with this episode.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
You bring up a very good point here and I'm surprised no one else has brought this up. As Turtonator's Trainer, it's up to Kiawe to develop strategies to counter as many of Turtonator's weaknesses--its lack of speed, its bulk, etc.--as possible. The fact that he didn't is Kiawe's fault, not Turtonator's, and doesn't really reflect on Turtonator's power. Pokémon can be naturally strong, but if they have a bad Trainer, then they are going to appear weak, even when they are not.

It makes sense when you consider this is actually the first really developed battle we've seen from Kaiwe. Mostly we've got glimpses of battles, or Turtonator tanking attacks or using a Z Move. This was Kaiwe being made to develop out of that and use strategy to outwit an opponent (notice how even the new attack didn't change the entire battle, it would have gone against the point).

I have to say, while there isn't a lot of battling this series, I do like the substance put into some of the moments we do get. We've seen Pokemon actually training to learn moves and strategies and gratifying context and display put into it. I mean there is still the odd usual deus ex machina or spam fest battle, but moderated in between some properly and cleverly handled moments, they're far more tolerable.
 
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Xuxuba

Well-Known Member
You can't say for sure that Brooklet Hill was not a Trial, either. It had all the key elements of the Totem battle portion of a Trial: a Totem Pokémon; an ally Pokémon; and a Z-Crystal reward after the Totem was defeated. Unless it's stated it wasn't a Trial, then we don't have any reason to assume it wasn't.

I didn't tho. I made it clear that it was just my opinion:

It's hard for me to consider it as a trial
IMO, it was more of a nod to the games than a trial per se.
I wouldn't really define that as a trial
In the anime, Rotom said that grand trials comes after the smaller trials.
So, IMO, if it's not a task required to face the kahuna and Ash can just skip it, then it's not really one of the smaller trials.
That is one way to see it, but, personally

Granted i asked why would they show Ash completing some of the Akala's trials but not the others when you said that he was going to complete the fire trial after the battle with Olivia, but that was mainly because i assumed no one really considered that incident as an official trial. I wasn't really saying you couldn't believe it was one.

It had all the key elements of the Totem battle portion of a Trial: a Totem Pokémon; an ally Pokémon; and a Z-Crystal reward after the Totem was defeated. Unless it's stated it wasn't a Trial, then we don't have any reason to assume it wasn't..

You're doing it again. You're saying that i can't believe it wasn't a trial, because of your assumptions of what it makes a trial (something that was never explained very well in the anime).
Also, that last part is a fallacy called argumentum ad ignorantiam. Can we please be more rational than that?

But this really doesn't have anything to do with this episode.
Well, the discussion started mainly because some people were talking about the reason why the fire trial wasn't portrayed in this episode, but yes, at this point, it has nothing to do with the actual episode.
 
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Navin

MALDREAD
Mal's Review - Sun&Moon Edition

Rotate for a Kiawe obligatory episode


Pros:

* Hikers

* Alola Marowak would have been a good alternate for Litten for Ash

* Kiawe character development

* Who said SM Ash couldn't be inspirational?

* Dancing Marowak is best Marowak

* Turtanator vs Marowak


Cons:

(none)


Not bad, not spectacular episode either.

5.5/10


Last ten episodes ratings: 4/4.5/3/4.5/7.5/3/5.5/3/5/4
Average of episodes 21-30: 4.65/10
Average of episodes 11-20: 4.95/10
Average of episodes 1-10: 6.6/10
 

Tabasco Boshi

★★★★★
I find funny and sad that this is the first time the Kalos Elite 4 theme has been kept in the dub, since it was replaced every single time It played during the XY series.

Watchable episode, at least. Looking forward to the Spanish dub.
 

Mr.Munchlax

Great Ball Rank Trainer
Hands down one of the best Sun & Moon dubbed episodes to date. The dubbed dialogue sounded perfect, there was a great balance between the dub scores and the original music, and Ed Goldfarb's battle scores are honestly getting a lot better. Plus, I'm still geeking out over how they kept the Kalos Elite 4 theme in here since it's been one of my favorite scores.

That, on top of this already being a good episode, easily makes this a 10/10 for me!!
 

Ryu Taylor

Unwavering beliefs. Richter Taylor is my name now.
Nice to see what brought that photobombing Hiker meme back in full force.

"Rotomdex: The chance it went right is 50%. The chance it went left is also 50%.
Ash: We can only pick one of them?"
THIS is why literal translations don't work. Hurry up and learn that, TPCi! It's okay to adapt!

Well, Lana had her turn last week, so Kiawe's up now. And sorry dude, but hers was better. The battle wasn't nearly as impressive. And overall, it didn't feel as fulfilling as Lana's trial.

Hmph... TPCi just HAD to preserve the worst Elite Four battle theme ever, and for a moment that didn't call for it... THIS kind of nonsense is what people want the dub to keep??! Oh, and last I checked, Kiawe's a Trial Captain (game)/student (show), so why's the maintained JP music making it seem like he's an Aether goon??? Talk about making a mountain out of a... no, this isn't even a molehill, but Mima still managed to make a mountain out of it. How? HOW??????
Yes, yes, I know it's no crime to prefer the JP soundtrack. But honestly, stuff like this is the reason why I can't see its appeal any longer. It's just so awful overall, and its editing is even worse.
Now, the dub soundtrack was just as good as last week's. As Mr. Munchlax said, Mr. Goldfarb's battle themes are getting better. He's finally overcoming that one and only problem he once had. Needless to say, those were the musical highlights of the episode.

I do still value character and story writing more than anything else, but honestly, music's starting to matter to me more than it did before. I made it look like nothing else mattered in the past, which isn't true of my feelings on the matter, but I can see now how much assistance it lends to enjoyment of the show. Again, my top priority is the character and story writing, but the music's gaining more significance to me.

But anyway, this was a good episode, but not as good as last week's. If another trial is next week's episode, I hope it turns out better.
 

Ultra Beast Lover

Well-Known Member
Only thing that bothered me was when they were explaining Marowak's motives "Oh so you wanted to get stronger." Well yeah you guys should've already figured that out after you heard that these crowns make Pokemon stronger and a Pokemon stole it. This could've been better if they said something like, "Next time you can just ask for the crown so as to make you stronger. That's what you wanted right?" Otherwise good episode.
 

Zoruagible

Lover of underrated characters
The best episode a companion has gotten in awhile. It was nice being able to see Kiawe fight somebody other than Ash for a freaking change and also experience loss. Marowak was the perfect capture for Kiawe and it has a perfect personality to fit in with Kiawe's group.
Kiawe is the only perfect classmate. He never fails to be amazing, never an annoyance.
Hiker David is a blessing, I hope they return whenever the Fire Totem appears.
Seeing all those Fire types was neat too, we don't get to see older generation starters that often.
The only thing that would have improved this episode was a Team Rocket appearance.
10/10
 

Vipsoccermaster

Well-Known Member
Good Kiawe episode. Major plus on Kiawe getting development, backstory, and even a new Pokémon, Alolan Marowak. Battles were fine. Good for Ash to help Kiawe to battle against speed with his Pikachu.

Like Zoruagible, seeing all of the Fire starters (one form of the three for each generation) was great, as well as Hiker David. Those hikers love to steal every shot at every opportunity.
 

Bguy7

The Dragon Lord
That episode was actually alright. Probably one of the better Sun and Moon episodes so far. It's still only an average episode in the grand scheme of Pokémon, but at this point I'm fully willing to accept average. Best part of the episode was the hikers.
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
Well, the Fire Festival was interrupted by the Marowak, but at least it went way better then the Fyre Festival

Which still has nothing to do with what satopi said, so I'm not sure why you brought it up in the first place

because he's an Ash Stan who dreams every night about himself being Ash and kissing Serena. I'm glad he's been banned

Hmph... TPCi just HAD to preserve the worst Elite Four battle theme ever, and for a moment that didn't call for it... THIS kind of nonsense is what people want the dub to keep??!

Wow dude. You are so wrong. It is an incredible E4 theme, and I'm SO HAPPY it was used :)
 
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