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A Full-Strength Battle Surprise! (922)

DS0308

<--- Actually me
I love to read comments where people talk about DEM or Sue-ness when they've been proven wrong about two posts beforehand...

The failure to the transformation is in the visual cues and dialogue. Ash wants to show it off to Swayer, when he's in battle he's trying to force it to happen, causing his battle pulse to go crazy and get nowhere near Greninja. The episode implies that they were in two different frames of mind, and especially considering all the focus that they gave to Ash it's also implied that it's Ash's fault that the transformation didn't occur. Greninja didn't look like he was actively trying to achieve the transformation himself, much like every other time this has happened. They've let it happen when it happens before. It comes about because their feelings have to be synchronised and I think it's pretty clear they weren't here. I don't even think it's that much of a problem anyway because all of what I've just said isn't necessarily apparent to the characters, especially Ash. Sure he knows they need to be synced, but does he ACTUALLY know how to do this? No. He took his new toy for granted and it bit him in the *** because he's not 100% cognison to every aspect of it, or should I say, the very essence of it. The anime is very specific in what they want to imply.

Sawyer winning is good because it makes their next match a revenge match for Ash, and it's far better he won in a close fight now then pulling something out of his *** at the League after being curb stomped every other time. Doublade isn't that weak, it was able to take a few hits with Iron Defense then retaliate with (Sacred Sword/Fury Cutter?), it's just Ash's own counter-strategy with Noivern caught him out. His Clawitzer is a strong opponent, it reminds me of Ramos' Weepinbell in some ways. Mega Launcher just made it a potent threat to increase damage output, but he's a cheating *** for using Heal Pulse in a Single Battle, lol. Sceptile is still as capable as it was before, helped by the Greninja strategy, he's a worthy rival for Greninja. Sawyer is meant to get stronger and train off-screen, he's the main rival. It's apparently bad in this situation because unlike Paul or another equivalent he started off weaker than Ash. Let's not forget the kid has purpose-built strategies to defeat Ash, I don't think it's weird in the slightest. Knowing how Ash battles I actually expect him to throw something different at him the next time around which causes him to improvise.

Is his win legitimate? Yes. Ash's distraction is no different an event to Sawyer looking at his notebook while Slurpuff got obliterated by Hawlucha. Granted, it seemed Ash had one eye on showing the transformation during the battle which took him out a little, but the only time that really played much of a part was at the end. Sceptile wasn't losing at that point anyway, you could argue it had the advantage.

We also shouldn't be making power comparisons to say Sawyer is better than Diantha. Power is relative and can be influenced by additional factors, like Sawyer's strategy for Ash. Plus there's the obvious example of Ash-Paul-Brandon before the Sinnoh League. Was Paul able to beat Brandon? No. Unlike Greninja, Sceptile currently doesn't possess the means to trouble Gardevoir IMO, plus it took base Greninja a fair few moves to actually land one hit in the first place. The Synchronisation > ME point is debatable, I'd certainly say they're equivalents, but Synchro has certain perks and negative qualities which make it function differently. Plus MC-X beat Ash-Greninja in their first match without too much trouble, and they seemed somewhat even in Round 2 with Greninja just gaining the upper-hand.

Slightly unrelated to what others have said: quite frankly Pikachu in for Hawlucha would change the entire complexion of the battle. They clearly wanted a full-health Greninja vs Sceptile battle instead of having Sceptile weakened or defeated. I mean, come on, it's Pikachu. He's been pretty dominant the last few times (Hawlucha was too but that's slightly different and I cbf explaining why).

Oh and yay Noivern! Dragon Claw looks odd with those big wings in my opinion, kind of why I wanted Dragon Pulse. He does have the Boomburst ranged attack still so I'm fine with D-Claw tbh, better he gets in a fist fight with Metang than charge head-first at him next time, haha.
 
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ShinyCharyZard

Too old for your rubbish..
Didn't Ash use the exact same strategy of "attack while the trainer is distracted" in XY075 or XY076? And people are complaining about Sawyer doing the exact same thing right here?

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm proud of Sawyer for doing it. He's definitely been learning..
 

Andre2725

Member
Sawyer actually taking advantage of Ash's mid-battle moment of confusion was impressive. The typical friendly rival would stop and check if things are okay, but not this guy, he took advantage of the moment and went in for the kill. Good going Sawyer!

Impressive? I call that cheap.
I don't mind Ash losing especially with all the focus on the pseudo mega evolution (how else to describe it), but the way the writers go about it feels off.

It's like a rival pulling out counters to everything and even gimping the main protagonist. For all intent and purposes i cannot give this battle a passing grade.
 

XXD17

Draco rex
Well...Ash losing here is a good sign that he might not end up losing to Sawyer at the league...still hopeful for Alain...the one thing that really annoyed me in this episode was that heal pulse BS they pulled though...especially since it was so pivotal to the battle...
 

Megatron213

Well-Known Member
Impressive? I call that cheap.
I don't mind Ash losing especially with all the focus on the pseudo mega evolution (how else to describe it), but the way the writers go about it feels off.

It's like a rival pulling out counters to everything and even gimping the main protagonist. For all intent and purposes i cannot give this battle a passing grade.

It wasn't impressive it's what a good trainer should do if your opponent hesitates you take advantage of that and make him suffer. What I did like was sceptile knowing greninja would use double team and that when he did that he would try to come from behind when sceptile takes out the other fake greninjas it shows that they are learning greninja and ashs style that was I liked the most he's now showing that he has ashs style pretty well calculated which those of us who have watched the anime a long time know what happens when in the big final battle the rival trys to predict his style and they can't..Paul was able to for most of the battle but towards the end reggie even said that by now Paul can't predict ashs strategy which Is what I hope happens with sawyer in the leauge
 

Master_Tyrell

Well-Known Member
Well...Ash losing here is a good sign that he might not end up losing to Sawyer at the league...still hopeful for Alain...the one thing that really annoyed me in this episode was that heal pulse BS they pulled though...especially since it was so pivotal to the battle...

I would call it BS if only we didn't have other moves that had a different effect in the anime compared to the games. It seems here the writers opted for Heal Pulse to work on the Pokémon that uses it. We'll have to see if they keep that consistent, though. I was certainly caught off guard since it's definitely not how it works in game, but hey... it's the anime and some things are bound to be different.
 

Navin

MALDREAD
There's not going to be a satisfying result when you introduce a rival character 73 episodes into the series (apart from a cameo in 64 where he gets destroyed by Clemont), make him a rookie against arguably the strongest incarnation of Ash, have only one badge (first gym), depict him as an incompetent battler whose only decent Pokémon is his starter, and give him a character design that you can't take seriously.

Then 44 episodes (3 appearances) later, he's now a strategist with all the badges and a team shaping up to be super bad***. <-- The only explanation for this is that he's receptive and takes notes.


Compare to last season where 'reset' BW Ash wasn't as skillful, whose best team (Pikachu/Krookodile/Pignite/Leavanny/Palpitoad/Boldore) wasn't that impressive, and definitely wasn't capable of defeating experienced Virgil-tier trainers.
 

Andre2725

Member
Well...Ash losing here is a good sign that he might not end up losing to Sawyer at the league...still hopeful for Alain...the one thing that really annoyed me in this episode was that heal pulse BS they pulled though...especially since it was so pivotal to the battle...

Maybe, but the whole "fainting and loss of concentration/confusion" in this episode and the previous one feels like bad writing to me. Something like "he needs to lose so let's do this to make it happen"
 
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Sonicheroesfan1

Crystal Veteran
Maybe, but the whole "fainting and loss of concentration/confusion" in this episode and the previous one feels like bad writing to me. Something like "he needs to lose so let's do this to make it happen"

Well, honestly, even if Sawyer has actually gotten a LOT better by literally studying Ash and trying to counter his strategies, making him lose "fairly" to Shota would be actual bad writing. You see, with the Ash-Greninja form he was almost able to equal the Champion's relaxed battle style. That power boost is huge, and if the synchronization succeeded, then there's no way Shota's Sceptile could've won. Making Ash lose to him in a fair fight (by making Sceptile hit everything and dodge everything until Greninja fainted) would feel even more forced than him not being able to do it because in a perfect mental/heart/bond condition, Greninja would be much more powerful.

This only proves that Sceptile can almost equal normal Greninja's power (which is still less than equal, considering the type advantage), and because they were forcing it, Greninja wasn't REALLY FEELING IT (or at least that's what I got from the ep), and Sceptile took advantage of that. That doesn't feel forced, it makes sense considering his intentions with the transformation.

You're given a gift that can only be activated when things get really bad and your battle (and possibly life) is in danger. If you FORCE it to impress someone when not really in danger, it's not gonna work.
 

diakyu

Well-Known Member
One thing I didn't like was how Greninja sheathed his freaking cut. It was one of the most hilariously stupid things this show has done in some time.
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
One thing I didn't like was how Greninja sheathed his freaking cut. It was one of the most hilariously stupid things this show has done in some time.

They tried to add a style to it befiting a ninja pokemon instead of the boring *** move it usually is
 

diakyu

Well-Known Member
They tried to add a style to it befiting a ninja pokemon instead of the boring *** move it usually is
I understand it's cool and I like dumb cool things, but this is beyond stupid. Imagine being the Scizor trainer watching Greninja do that from behind.
 

hottom3rd

Well-Known Member
Ever since halfway through Trip's development, Ash has hardly gotten annoyed.

Now that he's aware the transformation happens because of pulses, he's worse off trying to manipulate them than when he let it go by itself. Simple as that.

I agree. Originally I was unsure, considering it could have just been ash holding back. Looking back though, I see that maybe he was just annoyed at the fact that shota was doing so much better, and those insecurities played a role in his inability to sync with Greninja. Now an interesting thing to know is the actual pattern of the pulses, Greninja pattern remained calm and cool a steady pulse, while ashs turned into a jarred erratic pattern pretty much throughout his use of greninja, meaning that the weakness here was ash and his emotional insecurities and not grenina "not feeling" it
 

Outburstz

Well-Known Member
I hope everyone knows that Sawyer still has a Salamance waiting in the wings
 

jrizza88

Meteorite
I hope everyone knows that Sawyer still has a Salamance waiting in the wings

I feel like Pikachu or Noivern will be the one to take it down. Both Pikachu and Hawlucha have slayed it though, but I sort of see Hawlucha getting "revenge" against Clawitzer but falling to Salamence.
 

WaterShuriken

"I..I..Iron Tail, Pikachu."
I feel like Pikachu or Noivern will be the one to take it down. Both Pikachu and Hawlucha have slayed it though, but I sort of see Hawlucha getting "revenge" against Clawitzer but falling to Salamence.

I don't think every Pokemon needs a rivalry or to get revenge against another Pokémon. I think Mega-Sceptile vs Ash-Greninja is enough. Because with certain rivalries it makes the battle match-ups so predictable.
 
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