• We're currently experiencing a minor issue with our email system preventing emails for new registrations and verifications going out. We're currently working to fix this
  • Be sure to join the discussion on our discord at: Discord.gg/serebii
  • If you're still waiting for the e-mail, be sure to check your junk/spam e-mail folders

A Full-Strength Battle Surprise! (922)

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
You do realize Noivern hit it like ten times, right? Sawyer wanted to tire it out but Noivern ultimately had more endurance. After all, ineffective attacks do do some damage.
Well, it was more like 4 or 5 times, but it seems that in the anime stat raises aren't cumulative. So, Doublade needed Iron Defense after every hit, it seemed. Or so is my assumption.
 

DS0308

<--- Actually me
Well, it was more like 4 or 5 times, but it seems that in the anime stat raises aren't cumulative. So, Doublade needed Iron Defense after every hit, it seemed. Or so is my assumption.
I think moves like Iron Defense and Cotton Guard end up just blocking damage rather than increasing stats. It's kind of the same with Reflect and Light Screen somewhat.
 

Orton155

Pokemon Enthusiast
Two battle episodes in a row! We are lucky indeed.

I think Sawyer is maturing, very fast in fact, and it showed in the battle. His emotions are kept in check and also his note taking is less frequent. It will be interesting how he fairs at the league.

The battle itself was nice. Noivern began to dominate but clever strategy from Sawyer and Clawitzer clawed (sorry) them ahead. Unfortunately, Ash depended on Greninja too much and then when the transformation didn't work it was all over. Sawyer has come a long way from the beginning.

Another good episode, onto the next one!
 

Pokemonfan358

Active Member
I'm also somewhat confused with Noivern. When it evolved it was Japanese, then it changed vs Alain and you could hear it say "Noivern" quite clearly, now it's... growling? Or at least it sounds like someone impersonating the Japanese version. At least with Eevee even though they changed mid-episode they at least stuck with one version for the rest of it's appearances.

Not a lot to say about how the dub did besides that. Apart from minor BGM changes that didn't really change anything this time around.

I still maintain Pikachu would've made this battle different.
i talked with lisa and she said they dont have the rights to use noivern's japense voice. the reson for eevee is because they dont have the rights to some of eevee's japense voice in some parts. whenever they get a disk for a episode they tell them what voices they have the right too just like the music and episode and season titiles.
 

Pikachu52

Well-Known Member
When I first found out the plot of this episode when it was released in Japanese I was apprehensive about it, mainly because it confirmed the writers were taking a path I thought they wouldn't. They've put Sawyer on an equal paring to Ash, which not only makes the narrative inconsistent, and making Ash appear weaker than he actually is. This was my problem by some parts of the BW series, namely the first tournament so it's unfortunate it's been repeated here. I have four criticisms of the episode.

Firstly, Sawyer is unrealistically overpowered. This kid started out as a novice, now he's spamming Clawitzer and Sceptile and has managed to beat Ash. Not only was this a reasonably comfortable win, it was actually party due to decent strategy. In the second battle managed to work out what Hawlutcha was going to do and had a plan to defeat it - this is the same kid who didn't know dragon moves are ineffective on fairy Pokémon.

He's also one gym badge ahead, despite starting three behind. Even considering Ash has Clemont, Bonnie and Serena slowing him down and had to spend time at Serena Masterclass (I knew going to that was a mistake) his turnaround in strenght. His progress seems like going from loosing a school swimming carnival to competing and winning against members of the Australian Olympic swimming Team (which considering London might not actually be that much of a stretch). Ash is a competent trainer - the series should reflect that more often.

Secondly, Noivern. This is the third time it's battled since it evolved, and despite it's initial win against doublade, it went down fairly quickly to Sawywer's second Pokémon. So far this series I think it's had four battles including both of Sawyer's and three have a been losses. Ash remarked that it had gotten stronger since evolving - That is unfortunately not supported by it's record.

Thirdly, Greninja spamming. Greninja may have lost to Scepitle but it still held up the battle for Ash, by defeating Clawitzer. And as with the previous Diantha and Alain espidoes it's undeniably the focus. It spent longer on screen than the other Pokémon, won a battle against an unnamed trainer just to remind us of it's strength and worst of all, Hawlutcha is sacrificed simply so Greninja can have a small extra moment of glory. Slightly unfair this is the first time Hawltucha has had a serious battle since prior to the masterclass.

Fourth, Bonnie's singing. Either the voice actor can't sing or is trying to sound too much like a child, but the singing is irritating. It's trying to be cute, but fails dramatically for four reasons. 1) Bonnie's singing voice is, well just like a child, high pitched and off key, with pointless silly lyrics. 2) There's something off about singing to a Zygarde core. Singing to a Pokémon that is cute of is portrayed using a woobie trope such as Oshawott or Pikachu, would be cute. The Zygarde core is a legendary of unimaginable power. It would be like singing to Rayquaza or Aceus. 3) To make the singing work as a scene, the trainer and Pokémon need to have an indentifable bond. Ash singing to Pikachu would be adorable, because they're clearly close to one another and Ash's affection for Pikachu is established. The way Bonnie and Zygarde have been written come across a little girl picked up a legendary Pokémon off the ground and started playing with it like a doll. The notion of friendship is false because it's one sided, Zygarde doesn't openly show affection to Bonnie. 4) Bonnie, saying it has you isn't going to make Zygarde feel better about the other core being locked in a cage by a group of terrorists.

That aside, the battles are good and Sawyer's still a cute character. He has a certain innocence, good nature and determination that even though he is not the protagonist endears him to the audience - which I suppose is why people were rooting for him to get mega Sceptile and why ultimately this episode will probably be viewed favorably. In particular the part where he thinks to himself 'I know I have eight gym badges but beating him will prove I've become a fully fledged trainer' gives Sawyer a strong combination of self-doubt but also of determination that allows the audience to feel happiness at his success.

8/10
 
Last edited:

roguedr4g0nite

WishiWashi Trainer
i talked with lisa and she said they dont have the rights to use noivern's japense voice. the reson for eevee is because they dont have the rights to some of eevee's japense voice in some parts. whenever they get a disk for a episode they tell them what voices they have the right too just like the music and episode and season titiles.
Well, there's another argument to give sub complainers on YT videos. So is it that they can't afford it or the Japanese won't allow them to use it whatsoever?

Anyways this was a decent episode. Noivern kept using physical moves and Doublade used Iron Defense. Arceus forbid you use Boomburst, a Special Attack, Ketchum! We get Hawlucha but it loses to Ice Beam. I would've expected more from something that went to confront Zapdos. Greninja was also a disappointment. No synchro? Really? I'm sure we'll find out in the next episodes why but the dub and the sub themes of Sawyer and Ash in the forest made me think Mega evolution and synchro we're going to appear then. Anyways a battle uninterrupted by incompetent Team Rocket is always a plus for me. 8/10
 

AuraChannelerChris

"How did you manage to faint while standing up?"
i talked with lisa and she said they dont have the rights to use noivern's japense voice. the reson for eevee is because they dont have the rights to some of eevee's japense voice in some parts. whenever they get a disk for a episode they tell them what voices they have the right too just like the music and episode and season titiles.
...Pics or it didn't happen.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
Well, there's another argument to give sub complainers on YT videos. So is it that they can't afford it or the Japanese won't allow them to use it whatsoever?

Anyways this was a decent episode. Noivern kept using physical moves and Doublade used Iron Defense. Arceus forbid you use Boomburst, a Special Attack, Ketchum! We get Hawlucha but it loses to Ice Beam. I would've expected more from something that went to confront Zapdos. Greninja was also a disappointment. No synchro? Really? I'm sure we'll find out in the next episodes why but the dub and the sub themes of Sawyer and Ash in the forest made me think Mega evolution and synchro we're going to appear then. Anyways a battle uninterrupted by incompetent Team Rocket is always a plus for me. 8/10
Maybe he didn't because Boomburst is a Normal type move and Doublade is part-Ghost...
 

roguedr4g0nite

WishiWashi Trainer
Maybe he didn't because Boomburst is a Normal type move and Doublade is part-Ghost...
Well now I feel silly. :(
I had a brain fart and forgot about typing. But I guess that's what you get when Horn Drill works on Gourgeist. The anime has messed up my mind with typing because immunities rarely show they're immune.
 

Pokemonfan358

Active Member
its somtimes both and the desion is mostly up to the music composer. in the bigging when they get the disk for the episode the apense will say what they have the rights too and they will say the music commpose has the choice to choose the music. its eather he or she will choose the muic and the japense will say yes or no. he or she wont choose the peace if it cost alot of money. he or she will skip over a pice they want to use to get to other peaces they want to use and not choocing them because they think they could make a piace that suits that seace they use it in.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
Well now I feel silly. :(
I had a brain fart and forgot about typing. But I guess that's what you get when Horn Drill works on Gourgeist. The anime has messed up my mind with typing because immunities rarely show they're immune.
True, but typically in big battles between trainers, typing isn't ignored. It's usually mostly ignored against TRio.
 

Pikachu52

Well-Known Member
It's really interesting how he's been hiding this from Pikachu as well, pretending the Greninja loss was okay. He's been treating Pikachu not poorly but definitely not as the partner he once was. That's also an interesting development. I look forward to a much more interesting battle at the league.
I couldn't tell whether or not Ash was genuinely brushing off the loss when he winked at Pikachu or if the failure to synchronise had actually upset him. That being said I agree that it's a side effect of the Greninja spamming and rapid development of Greninja that the last few episodes have pushed Pikachu to the sidelines almost as much as the other Pokémon. It's as if they're setting up a strong bond between Ash and Greninja by pretending Ash doesn't have one with his main partner. At least in the Alain episode Pikachu was shown being disappointed by not getting to battle. This episode has barely any focus on him. It's a saving grace of the episode that if Ash had to loose to Sawyer, at least it wasn't with Pikachu. That would be falling back to something I was critical of best wishes for, using Pikachu as a punching bag and making him responsible for significant defeats to trainer Ash was better than and Pokémon Pikachu was more experienced that. Clawitzer based simply on type advantage would have lost to Pikachu and quite possibly since it's not yet a Mega, Sceptile as well.
 
This was a pretty good episode. I particularly enjoyed the battle between Ash and Sawyer.
 

Cloud5001

Well-Known Member
I look at these complaints and am honestly wondering what episode they were watching. Remember Sawyer's written down all of Ash's strategies and such it's reasonable he'd get a pokemon that can succesfully counter Ash's preferred way of battling. Seeing Sawyer improve so much was clearly getting to Ash before he tried Ash-Greninja, Greninja normally moves so much faster than how it moved against Sceptile this time. Ash was growing frustrated and it affected his reaction time, the transformation failing only made things worse. The look Pikachu gives him at the end clearly shows that he's not taking this loss well.

The synchronicity relies on both Ash and Geninja to be on the same page. The problem was'nt Greninja it was Ash, his mind was all over the place by the time he tried it that it was no shock to me when they could'nt do it. Ash's one major flaw is when he let's himself get distracted either by getting arrogant or frustrated he ends up paying for it in a big way. This isn't the first time something like this has happened.
 

Pikachu52

Well-Known Member
I look at these complaints and am honestly wondering what episode they were watching. Remember Sawyer's written down all of Ash's strategies and such it's reasonable he'd get a pokemon that can succesfully counter Ash's preferred way of battling. Seeing Sawyer improve so much was clearly getting to Ash before he tried Ash-Greninja, Greninja normally moves so much faster than how it moved against Sceptile this time. Ash was growing frustrated and it affected his reaction time, the transformation failing only made things worse. The look Pikachu gives him at the end clearly shows that he's not taking this loss well.

The synchronicity relies on both Ash and Geninja to be on the same page. The problem was'nt Greninja it was Ash, his mind was all over the place by the time he tried it that it was no shock to me when they could'nt do it. Ash's one major flaw is when he let's himself get distracted either by getting arrogant or frustrated he ends up paying for it in a big way. This isn't the first time something like this has happened.
Sawyer writing Ash's style down doesn't get him anything more than notes on paper. He still had to capture those Pokémon and raise them to their evolved forms and master the techniques and moves required to pull off a win like that. And Ash should have been able to notice what Sawyer was up to when Noivern got taken down. It's undeniable that Sawyer's had a massive turnaround in his ability in such a short space of time given that only a few espidoes ago he lost to the same Pokémon 3-0. I can't think of another character having that amount of improvement in such a short space of time. Even the parts of the battle that didn't overpower Sawyer were weird - Heal Pulse doesn't heal the user it heals other Pokémon on the field. To make Sawyer's victory work it's almost as if the writers have had to flip move mechanics. Ash was getting frustrated with his success and may have been slightly overconfident yes, but that's understandable given in his last appearances Sawyer was getting his butt kicked. It would be like a kid loosing a school track and field carnival in Januray and then winning gold in Rio. The plot would have worked so much better if Sawyer had not been presented in every episode up until now as a novice without a clue. This episode had one purpose as you said - to demonstrate Ash-Greninja Synchro evolution failing due to Ash not being able to concentrate. It was all about Greninja just like the previous espidoe was, and will be every other espidoe up to the league bar the Goodra episode and Clemont filler. No other series, Johto, Hoenn, Unova or Sinnoh had Ash loosing like this so close to a league. It wouldn't have been necessary to include Ash having a loss like this if they treated Greninja like an ordinary Pokémon.
 
Last edited:

Cloud5001

Well-Known Member
Sawyer writing Ash's style down doesn't get him anything more than notes on paper. He still had to capture those Pokémon and raise them to their evolved forms and master the techniques and moves required to pull off a win like that. And Ash should have been able to notice what Sawyer was up to when Noivern got taken down. It's undeniable that Sawyer's had a massive turnaround in his ability in such a short space of time given that only a few espidoes ago he lost to the same Pokémon 3-0. I can't think of another character having that amount of improvement in such a short space of time. Even the parts of the battle that didn't overpower Sawyer were weird - Heal Pulse doesn't heal the user it heals other Pokémon on the field. To make Sawyer's victory work it's almost as if the writers have had to flip move mechanics. Ash was getting frustrated with his success and may have been slightly overconfident yes, but that's understandable given in his last appearances Sawyer was getting his butt kicked. It would be like a kid loosing a school track and field carnival in Januray and then winning gold in Rio. The plot would have worked so much better if Sawyer had not been presented in every episode up until now as a novice without a clue. This episode had one purpose as you said - to demonstrate Ash-Greninja Synchro evolution failing due to Ash not being able to concentrate. It was all about Greninja just like the previous espidoe was, and will be every other espidoe up to the league bar the Goodra episode and Clemont filler. No other series, Johto, Hoenn, Unova or Sinnoh had Ash loosing like this so close to a league. It wouldn't have been necessary to include Ash having a loss like this if they treated Greninja like an ordinary Pokémon.
Ash was put off by how much Sawyer had improved, as you said Ash curbstomped Sawyer both times but the fact that your missing is that we've seen in flash back that Sawyer is able to analyze his notes and work on a counter to win. It's the same here he was able to catch Ash off guard by preparing counters for his battle style, after that he just took advantage of the momentum he was gaining as well as Ash's growing frustration.

This loss was necessary not just for Ash-Greninja but also for Ash himself. As I said his greatest flaw is letting himself get distracted when he can't afford to do so. It's happened a few other times such as Ash's first full battle with Paul, Paul was overwhelming him so much he was getting frustrated about not being able to succesfully gain any momentum, as well as with Drake where he had gotten overconfident after gaining his 7 badges. It happened with Wulfric to because of this match with Sawyer. It shows that Ash is still human and he's not the perfect trainer nor should he be. To be honest I'm happy for this as I think this arc is being nicely handled.
 

Pikachu52

Well-Known Member
Ash was put off by how much Sawyer had improved, as you said Ash curbstomped Sawyer both times but the fact that your missing is that we've seen in flash back that Sawyer is able to analyze his notes and work on a counter to win. It's the same here he was able to catch Ash off guard by preparing counters for his battle style, after that he just took advantage of the momentum he was gaining as well as Ash's growing frustration..
Analysing notes isn't enough. I could not write down on paper "when the race started he ran really fast" and expect that to get an olympic gold. Within the timeframe he's had, which I think is only about 13 episodes, it might be more, he's had to catch a new Pokémon, evolve another Pokémon and actually train them to be able to use those counters. Doing so is still relying heavily on plot amour as is Ash's frustration to an extent - he could see Sawyer was countering his preferred strategy, so the solution would have been to change his own style. He could have used Talonflame to counter Sceptile instead of Greninja.

loss was necessary not just for Ash-Greninja but also for Ash himself. As I said his greatest flaw is letting himself get distracted when he can't afford to do so. It's happened a few other times such as Ash's first full battle with Paul, Paul was overwhelming him so much he was getting frustrated about not being able to succesfully gain any momentum, as well as with Drake where he had gotten overconfident after gaining his 7 badges. It happened with Wulfric to because of this match with Sawyer. It shows that Ash is still human and he's not the perfect trainer nor should he be. To be honest I'm happy for this as I think this arc is being nicely handled.
Paul, Drake and Wulfric weren't novices though. Those battles are more believable because we know and expect the trainer he's fighting against to be strong. They also happened earlier in their respective series, well before Ash had 7 badges and they weren't inserted as part of an arch around one Pokémon. It would be easier for the audience to see this as a reminder of Ash's humanity if they didn't have the distraction of "wtf how did this kid get so strong so fast." Ash loosing badly to another much less experienced than himself makes Ash look weak rather than drawing attention to flaws - Every series is more or less a soft reset, but in cannon Ash has been a trainer for a long time competing at the highest levels in 5 other regions. He should not be loosing to a trainer we know only got his first Pokémon recently.
 
Last edited:

Cloud5001

Well-Known Member
Analysing notes isn't enough. I could not write down on paper "when the race started he ran really fast" and expect that to get an olympic gold. Within the timeframe he's had, which I think is only about 13 episodes, it might be more, he's had to catch a new Pokémon, evolve another Pokémon and actually train them to be able to use those counters. Doing so is still relying heavily on plot amour as is Ash's frustration to an extent - he could see Sawyer was countering his preferred strategy, so the solution would have been to change his own style. He could have used Talonflame to counter Sceptile instead of Greninja.



Paul, Drake and Wulfric weren't novices though. Those battles are more believable because we know and expect the trainer he's fighting against to be strong. They also happened earlier in their respective series, well before Ash had 7 badges and they weren't inserted as part of an arch around one Pokémon. It would be easier for the audience to see this as a reminder of Ash's humanity if they didn't have the distraction of "wtf how did this kid get so strong so fast." Ash loosing badly to another much less experienced than himself makes Ash look weak rather than drawing attention to flaws - Every series is more or less a soft reset, but in cannon Ash has been a trainer for a long time competing at the highest levels in 5 other regions. He should not be loosing to a trainer we know only got his first Pokémon recently.
If you didn't notice by the time Ash got to sceptile he was already completely off his game. The timing of his attacks were completely off and Greninja was'nt able to land a single hit on Sceptile. No matter how tough an opponent is Ash should at least be able to get a few hits in when he's focused. When you take into account how he was pushing the Champion in his last battle when he went Ash-Greninja it makes perfect sense he'd let that go to his head and get frustrated when he does'nt even get Greninja to transform this time. This match played to Ash's weakness and fear that Greninja might leave him. Of course he tried to shrug the loss off but that look Pikachu gives him should make it pretty obvious he's shaken up.

Though they were experinced trainers the fact remains they were able to knock Ash off his game by either overwhelming him or taking advantage of his arrogance. Sawyer is not like Trip his growth is actually believable, especially when you consider he's inspired by Ash's battle style. He's a bookworm I would think it makes sense he'd be able to adapt quickly to how Ash battle's. For example Ash prefers speed so using a pokemon that can take alot of hits like Clawretzier is the best choice to turn it around on him. He also knows three of Ash's pokemon are flying types so ice beam would clearly be the best choice.
 

DS0308

<--- Actually me
There's a huge difference between a Pokemon battle and a 100m sprint. Poor comparison. Believe it or not you actually can write stuff down to help improve how you battle (or just memorise it). He still has to put it into practice but if he's go the strategy the execution comes naturally.

I watch YouTube videos of competitive battles and I've completely changed how I play over the past two years since I started.
 
Top