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A Full-Strength Battle Surprise! (922)

Pikachu52

Well-Known Member
There's a huge difference between a Pokemon battle and a 100m sprint. Poor comparison. Believe it or not you actually can write stuff down to help improve how you battle (or just memorise it). He still has to put it into practice but if he's go the strategy the execution comes naturally.

I watch YouTube videos of competitive battles and I've completely changed how I play over the past two years since I started.

Battling on the video games =/= battling in the anime. Ash is a more experienced trainer, using Pokémon he's had for longer perhaps that Sawyer's actually been a trainer let alone caught and trained his. Similarly Ash's style while it has a pattern isn't identical one eye battle so practice =/= natural execution. A great deal of skill is required. Knowing an opponent is helpful but it can't replace actual skill and strenght - and it's those two things that Sawyer has almost randomly been able to acquire that sit uneasily with me. At the very least it's inconsistency in narrative at worst it's undermining Ash and making him look like less of a trainer than he actually is.

If you didn't notice by the time Ash got to sceptile he was already completely off his game. The timing of his attacks were completely off and Greninja was'nt able to land a single hit on Sceptile. No matter how tough an opponent is Ash should at least be able to get a few hits in when he's focused. When you take into account how he was pushing the Champion in his last battle when he went Ash-Greninja it makes perfect sense he'd let that go to his head and get frustrated when he does'nt even get Greninja to transform this time. This match played to Ash's weakness and fear that Greninja might leave him. Of course he tried to shrug the loss off but that look Pikachu gives him should make it pretty obvious he's shaken up.

Though they were experinced trainers the fact remains they were able to knock Ash off his game by either overwhelming him or taking advantage of his arrogance. Sawyer is not like Trip his growth is actually believable, especially when you consider he's inspired by Ash's battle style. He's a bookworm I would think it makes sense he'd be able to adapt quickly to how Ash battle's. For example Ash prefers speed so using a pokemon that can take alot of hits like Clawretzier is the best choice to turn it around on him. He also knows three of Ash's pokemon are flying types so ice beam would clearly be the best choice.

Trip's growth was actually more believable because he started strong, maybe too strong, and increased strenght progressively throught out the series. Sawyer has really on developed in the space of 13 espidoes. Being a bookworm isn't training. Ash allowing things to go to his head or fearing Pokémon would leave him isn't entirely within character - I did not pick either of those things up the first time I watched it. The shrugging off I thought was genuine. This show has never been particularly complex or deep - It was fairly obvious Ash was upset after loosing to Paul. There's a line between putting your character though difficult situations and exposing their flaws and mistreating the character. Using a novice trainer who up to this episode had limited skill falls more to the latter than the former. This espidoe has less made it clear of the need for Ash to focus than it has made him look like a failure and made Sawyer almost irritating.
 
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Cloud5001

Well-Known Member
Battling on the video games =/= battling in the anime. Ash is a more experienced trainer, using Pokémon he's had for longer perhaps that Sawyer's actually been a trainer let alone caught and trained his. Similarly Ash's style while it has a pattern isn't identical one eye battle so practice =/= natural execution. A great deal of skill is required. Knowing an opponent is helpful but it can't replace actual skill and strenght - and it's those two things that Sawyer has almost randomly been able to acquire that sit uneasily with me. At the very least it's inconsistency in narrative at worst it's undermining Ash and making him look like less of a trainer than he actually is.



Trip's growth was actually more believable because he started strong, maybe too strong, and increased strenght progressively throught out the series. Sawyer has really on developed in the space of 13 espidoes. Being a bookworm isn't training. Ash allowing things to go to his head or fearing Pokémon would leave him isn't entirely within character - I did not pick either of those things up the first time I watched it. The shrugging off I thought was genuine. This show has never been particularly complex or deep - It was fairly obvious Ash was upset after loosing to Paul. There's a line between putting your character though difficult situations and exposing their flaws and mistreating the character. Using a novice trainer who up to this episode had limited skill falls more to the latter than the former. This espidoe has less made it clear of the need for Ash to focus than it has made him look like a failure and made Sawyer almost irritating.

The writers for Black and white did'nt know what they even wanted with Trip, for him to be seen as a credible threat they literally had a legendary pokemon give an excuse for Ash to lose to him which is contrived as all heck. Sawyer is better in that he never needed a crutch like that, we got beliveable charachter traits to explain his rapid growth but you continually ignore them.

Second where the heck have you been Ash has had several instances where he's grown arrogant or worried he might be holding his pokemon back. The first full battle with Paul is a perfect example, he was so determined to prove his training style was right he never took into account that Paul would be ready for him and he paid dearly for it, the reason he was down the next episode is because he realized this.

Need I remind you he's attempted to release Pikachu cause he thought he'd have a better life in the forest then with Ash. He has some insecurities as a trainer namely whenever he screws up royally he's incredibly hard on himself. Heck we saw that earlier this season when he lost to Viola. So a fear that Greninja may leave him giving the pokemon's history as well as the nightmare he had a few episodes ago is completely justified.
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
Battling on the video games =/= battling in the anime. Ash is a more experienced trainer, using Pokémon he's had for longer perhaps that Sawyer's actually been a trainer let alone caught and trained his. Similarly Ash's style while it has a pattern isn't identical one eye battle so practice =/= natural execution. A great deal of skill is required. Knowing an opponent is helpful but it can't replace actual skill and strenght - and it's those two things that Sawyer has almost randomly been able to acquire that sit uneasily with me. At the very least it's inconsistency in narrative at worst it's undermining Ash and making him look like less of a trainer than he actually is.

50 episodes isn't unnatural for growth seeing that Serena became a runner-up to the more experience Aria and Clemont an arc and a pretty good gym battle. It's not unnatural, especially for dealing with Ash, a person with a glass cannon battle structure.
 

Pikachu52

Well-Known Member
The writers for Black and white did'nt know what they even wanted with Trip, for him to be seen as a credible threat they literally had a legendary pokemon give an excuse for Ash to lose to him which is contrived as all heck. Sawyer is better in that he never needed a crutch like that, we got beliveable charachter traits to explain his rapid growth but you continually ignore them.

But Sawyer's traits aren't believable. Writing notes in a notebook won't make him a skilled trainer. He' been writing things down from the start but that didn't help him in his previous appearance. Even though the appearance of Zekrom to give Trip a boost in the first episode of BW is contrived, it's less contrived than changing an entire cannon mechanic to allow Sawyer to win - heal pulse does not heal the user it heals other Pokémon on the field.

Second where the heck have you been Ash has had several instances where he's grown arrogant or worried he might be holding his pokemon back. The first full battle with Paul is a perfect example, he was so determined to prove his training style was right he never took into account that Paul would be ready for him and he paid dearly for it, the reason he was down the next episode is because he realized this.

Need I remind you he's attempted to release Pikachu cause he thought he'd have a better life in the forest then with Ash. He has some insecurities as a trainer namely whenever he screws up royally he's incredibly hard on himself. Heck we saw that earlier this season when he lost to Viola. So a fear that Greninja may leave him giving the pokemon's history as well as the nightmare he had a few episodes ago is completely justified.

Releasing Pikachu was because he thought Pikachu would be happier with it's own kind not because of any insecurity he had as a trainer. In the other instances where Ash has been "incredibly hard on himself" it's been clear from the dialogue and the character actions that that was what he was thinking - he shrugs off the loss here so it's not immediately obvious that that's what he's thinking. He's never voice the fear that Greninja will leave him, that's been left to the audience to infer from Greninja walking away in the dream. It's a somewhat randomly included fear as by this stage Greninja's been happily battling along side him for all of the series and no insecurity has presented itself. If the writers are trying to demonstrate insecurity or arrogance on Ash's part it's been poorly constructed and is dependent on inconsistent narrative.

50 episodes isn't unnatural for growth seeing that Serena became a runner-up to the more experience Aria and Clemont an arc and a pretty good gym battle. It's not unnatural, especially for dealing with Ash, a person with a glass cannon battle structure.

It's not 50 episodes. Sawyer was not even close to matching Ash in his appearance 13 episodes ago. Serena's not a great comparison because she didn't match Aria - Aria got significantly more audience votes that Serena did. Serena simply out performed the other masterclass performances. Clemont was a gym leader from the start so it's implied he was strong from the start. Sawyer stretches believability by being clearly a novice in his first appearance halfway through the series.
 
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U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
it's less contrived than changing an entire cannon mechanic to allow Sawyer to win - heal pulse does not heal the user it heals other Pokémon on the field.

Just like you can't use thunderbolt on yourself oh wait Ash did exactly that. That's the least absurd thing in this anime.
 

Cloud5001

Well-Known Member
But Sawyer's traits aren't believable. Writing notes in a notebook won't make him a skilled trainer. He' been writing things down from the start but that didn't help him in his previous appearance. Even though the appearance of Zekrom to give Trip a boost in the first episode of BW is contrived, it's less contrived than changing an entire cannon mechanic to allow Sawyer to win - heal pulse does not heal the user it heals other Pokémon on the field.



Releasing Pikachu was because he thought Pikachu would be happier with it's own kind not because of any insecurity he had as a trainer. In the other instances where Ash has been "incredibly hard on himself" it's been clear from the dialogue and the character actions that that was what he was thinking - he shrugs off the loss here so it's not immediately obvious that that's what he's thinking. He's never voice the fear that Greninja will leave him, that's been left to the audience to infer from Greninja walking away in the dream. It's a somewhat randomly included fear as by this stage Greninja's been happily battling along side him for all of the series and no insecurity has presented itself. If the writers are trying to demonstrate insecurity or arrogance on Ash's part it's been poorly constructed and is dependent on inconsistent narrative.



It's not 50 episodes. Sawyer was not even close to matching Ash in his appearance 13 episodes ago. Serena's not a great comparison because she didn't match Aria - Aria got significantly more audience votes that Serena did. Serena simply out performed the other masterclass performances. Clemont was a gym leader from the start so it's implied he was strong from the start. Sawyer stretches believability by being clearly a novice in his first appearance halfway through the series.

Ok then it's clear you have'nt been paying attention to Ash's charachter all these years. I like him and it's why I can keep watching this show, I do think he's a great trainer. Unlike you though I'm not blind to his faults. Everything I've said has happened at various points in this anime, I'm not going to ignore another character's growth just because he beat Ash. Infact I'm happy they introduced Sawyer because I really enjoy when the rival starts out weak but grows to surpass the trainer. Especially since it leads to nice development for Ash. Also taking notes help you anaylze things and figure out how to solve the problem. The flashback showed that Sawyer uses this thinking to put together a strategy to beat an opponent he lost too before. To give you an example my little brother managed to get his Chimchar all the way up to Infernape before the first gym, and it was without using cheat codes. So yeah it's pretty possible for a trainer to have fast development.
 
Can't we just agree things are fishy no matter how we look at them.
 

Soaring Pikachu

Cool Trainer
I think Bonnie could make a fine trainer someday if she wanted to.
Despite CUT being weak and underused when it first appeared, it gets a lot of screen time now. I have no objections to this attack move re imagining.

It seems like the Ash Greninja dominance has been delayed for a while, its just as well since it might not be good for Ash's team to become too strong.
 

Pikachu52

Well-Known Member
Ok then it's clear you have'nt been paying attention to Ash's character all these years. I like him and it's why I can keep watching this show, I do think he's a great trainer. Unlike you though I'm not blind to his faults.
I'm not blind to his faults, I'm simply arguing that they weren't clearly presented in this episode. Neither Clemont or Serena made a statement to the effect of Ash not having his head in the game whereas in previous series another character has said just that. If that was what the anime was going for it's doing it incredibly subtly.

Everything I've said has happened at various points in this anime, I'm not going to ignore another character's growth just because he beat Ash.

I'm not ignoring the character's growth I'm criticising the narrative.

Infact I'm happy they introduced Sawyer because I really enjoy when the rival starts out weak but grows to surpass the trainer.

Personally I think there are two problems with the "rival starts out weak but grows to surpass the trainer." Firstly it's more or less an underdog trope which is relatively cliché given it's used all the time by the American film industry. It's generally not something that happens in real life. Secondly it's unrealistic. Sawyer didn't just start as weak - he was incredibly weak, going down to a gym leader in one hit, and his turn around has happened in the space of 13 episodes. We don't know anything about Sawyer other than a few glimpses into his thought process so it's difficult for the audience to empathise with his position as opposed to the protagonists.

Especially since it leads to nice development for Ash.

But it didn't lead to development for Ash. It leads to a rushed Greninja development. The audience is distracted by the rapid progress of a novice to focus on Ash and even with Ash's flaws they shouldn't explain a loss to a character who's sudden burst in strength is plot amour.

Also taking notes help you anaylze things and figure out how to solve the problem. The flashback showed that Sawyer uses this thinking to put together a strategy to beat an opponent he lost too before.
Strategy only works if you have something strategic to use. In 9 out of 10 cases in the anime battles come down to who's Pokémon are stronger. For Ash to loose like this it means either he's peaked or Sawyer's managed to significantly boost his strength.

To give you an example my little brother managed to get his Chimchar all the way up to Infernape before the first gym, and it was without using cheat codes. So yeah it's pretty possible for a trainer to have fast development.

Games=/=anime. The games use a mechanic that gives exp to a Pokémon each time it defeats another, so it is possible to level up Pokémon simply by to use the fan term "grinding." The anime tries to bring a level of realism implying that to become stronger you have to train over a period of time. One could not go from amateur runner to Olypmic sprinter in mere months.
 
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Cloud5001

Well-Known Member
I'm not blind to his faults, I'm simply arguing that they weren't clearly presented in this episode. Neither Clemont or Serena made a statement to the effect of Ash not having his head in the game whereas in previous series another character has said just that. If that was what the anime was going for it's doing it incredibly subtly.

Yeah they were, as I said Ash started to get frustrated around the middle of the battle because he was shocked at how fast Sawyer had improved. As a result it messed up his battling so much that Greninja was'nt able to land a single hit on Sceptile. No matter how tough an opponent Ash can at least get a few good hits in when he's at the top of his game.


I'm not ignoring the character's growth I'm criticising the narrative.

No your nitpicking and ignoring several things people have pointed out to you to explain why this is believable.

Personally I think there are two problems with the "rival starts out weak but grows to surpass the trainer." Firstly it's more or less an underdog trope which is relatively cliché given it's used all the time by the American film industry. It's generally not something that happens in real life. Secondly it's unrealistic. Sawyer didn't just start as weak - he was incredibly weak, going down to a gym leader in one hit, and his turn around has happened in the space of 13 episodes. We don't know anything about Sawyer other than a few glimpses into his thought process so it's difficult for the audience to empathise with his position as opposed to the protagonists.


Why is it so unrealistic no one learns things in exactly the same way. Some people pick things up faster than others, and we know Ash can be pretty slow at times. But your forgetting that the reason for that was that Sawyer got too frustrated during battle and it effect his focus just like how it effected Ash this time. As he said when a trainer is distracted their pokemon can feel it as well and it was effecting Sawyer's battling.
But it didn't lead to development for Ash. It leads to a rushed Greninja development. The audience is distracted by the rapid progress of a novice to focus on Ash and even with Ash's flaws they shouldn't explain a loss to a character who's sudden burst in strength is plot amour.


Strategy only works if you have something strategic to use. In 9 out of 10 cases in the anime battles come down to who's Pokémon are stronger. For Ash to loose like this it means either he's peaked or Sawyer's managed to significantly boost his strength.

Again why is it so shocking, Sawyer has no travel companions meaning he has no obligations to anyone else other than himself, plus he does'nt have a trio of clowns to harass him every day. So it makes sense that he would be able to get things done faster than Ash would. Also again Sawyer has studied Ash's battle style and planned to counter it.

Games=/=anime. The games use a mechanic that gives exp to a Pokémon each time it defeats another, so it is possible to level up Pokémon simply by to use the fan term "grinding." The anime tries to bring a level of realism implying that to become stronger you have to train over a period of time. One could not go from amateur runner to Olypmic sprinter in mere months.

I KNOW the anime is diffrent from the games, but the point is still valid because that's exactly why Sawyer's other pokemon have underperformed other then Clawritzer, he probably focused alot of time to trainning his Grovyle as a result his other pokemon lagged behind. He got Clawritzer to have a defense against Ash's style as well as having a way to do major damage against his flyer's. So that's why Clawritzer and Sceptile did so well against Ash.
 

the1stpkmnfan

Your Big Buff Bro
Catching up with the anime before the Kalos League finale in the dubbed version.

Good episode. I like that Sawyer gets an onscreen win, and against Ash of all people. I like this because Ash usually wins a majority of the time, and it almost felt like regular practice after a while.

Can't wait to see Ash, Sawyer and everyone else in the Kalos League now.
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
RIP "Noivern is the new Torterra".


Look man...I love these mons as much as you do but you can't get THIS mad just because there are fall guys sometimes. It's unrealistic for Ash to never fail giving his Mons wins. At least these guys have multiple wins under their belts already at this point, they're not Torterras.

Technically yes, but given that this is the only battle he won, it was only this one win that saved him from that label
 

Mega Altaria

☆~Shiny hunter▢~
Well because the writers didn't want Greninja to become too strong after the battle with Mega Gardevoir in the previous episode, Greninja was unable to sync with Ash and lost to Sceptile. And OK, Sawyer got like 3 badges that quickly from his last battle with Ash. Sawyer has become a lot stronger, even making good use of Doublade's Iron Defense and Clawitzer's Mega Launcher Ability, which would have boosted the power of Dragon Pulse and amplified the healing effects of Heal Pulse, and surprised Ash with Ice Beam, a move that doesn't get the Mega Launcher boost, and used it to KO Hawlucha as a super-effective attack..
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
It seems like the Ash Greninja dominance has been delayed for a while, its just as well since it might not be good for Ash's team to become too strong.

Gekkouga getting a loss was refreshing since it was receiving an enormous amount of praise, so it needed a reality check. Shota's win with Jukain was a nice bonus, too.
 
This was Sawyer's shining moment, revealing just how much stronger he's become. Bonnie talking about Ash-Greninja was really cute. Clemont's comment on the Snowbelle Gym was a little weird to me though. I thought he would have suggested for Ash to use Talonflame, seeing how Fire attacks are really good against Ice Pokemon.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
FullmetalJackie said:
Clemont's comment on the Snowbelle Gym was a little weird to me though. I thought he would have suggested for Ash to use Talonflame, seeing how Fire attacks are really good against Ice Pokemon.

Fiarrow had little experience against Ice-types from what I can remember however, so perhaps Citron took that inexperience into account.
 
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