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A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

Dragoon952

The Winter Moth
Obviously, you can see the thread has been moved to the competitive section. Hopefully we can get more insight through conversation down here!
 
Oh yeah! :cool:

I got the first post-switch-to-new-section-after-Dragoon952 post!

Does that even count? I can never tell.

Anyway, to continue the previous page's conversation a bit, I had forgotten about Darkrai's Ability. That is certainly something that adds to his value directly (though how much isn't easy to determine).
 

Prince Amrod

Dragon Tamer
bad dreams does a fixed 1/8th damage, one idea could be to add 1/8th of darkrai's calculated value to itself and use that? it could provide a useful balance tool for all abilities that deal damage perhaps?
 
So.. I've only briefly glanced at this and never really read it because I'm lazy and didn't have to mod it back then.

But now that this is in my section could someone give me a quick review of what this is?
 
We Are the Future

So.. I've only briefly glanced at this and never really read it because I'm lazy and didn't have to mod it back then.

But now that this is in my section could someone give me a quick review of what this is?
This is... the future.

In this system, we look at many details about each Pokémon and analyze them mathematically. Each Pokémon is assigned a value based on its stats, moves, etc. Battles are then capped at a certain point total (right now, 70 is the most popular and has been working well).

At least in theory, this should also provide more precision than simply placing a Pokémon in one broad group or another. We are right now considering how to deal with Ubers, which looks like it will be a difficult task.

I'm sure there's more to explain, though.
 
Smogon has done tournaments in the past based off that (though they used a much simpler formula). It was a lot of fun trying to make the best use of your "points" (though this turned into a lot of UU based Rain Dance teams).

I doubt it will ever overtake OU as OU has an extremely small banlist and a huge variety of teams you can use. But if you want to try a tournament with this, by all means go for it (unless you already have?)
 

Dragoon952

The Winter Moth
Smogon has done tournaments in the past based off that (though they used a much simpler formula). It was a lot of fun trying to make the best use of your "points" (though this turned into a lot of UU based Rain Dance teams).

I doubt it will ever overtake OU as OU has an extremely small banlist and a huge variety of teams you can use. But if you want to try a tournament with this, by all means go for it (unless you already have?)

We're just designing this an an alternative, not necessarily competition. It is basically an attempt to make mixed teams standardized so every pokemon is competitive in some way in the same environment. It's been in development for almost a year (few days away), and the thread was started before the competitive section was opened up. I just asked for it to be moved because it seems better suited here.

We are actually at the tail end of our first tournament to test the current structure. It's almost finished up. This is just kind of a "development" thread, if that makes sense.
 

Dragoon952

The Winter Moth
Just finished Dialga. Came out to 34. That's probably going to be close to, or is, the upper limit for the system in terms of values. I'm guessing Arceus will be around there when he is totally figured out.

EDIT:

Finished Giratina (Altered) and it turned out as 29.
 
One Year!

Just finished Dialga. Came out to 34. That's probably going to be close to, or is, the upper limit for the system in terms of values. I'm guessing Arceus will be around there when he is totally figured out.

EDIT:

Finished Giratina (Altered) and it turned out as 29.

A value of only 34 for Dialga greatly surprises me. This means a 70-point team could fit one Dialga, 3 nine-point Pokémon, one eight-point Pokémon, and a one-point (very weak) Pokémon. This is still a six-Pokémon team.

We might end up needing to ban Ubers. This should probably be tested at some point in the future. Conversely, we might need to find a similar-yet-fundamentally-different set of equations.


And, it has been one year since this thread opened! Oh, yeah! :cool:
 

Dragoon952

The Winter Moth
A value of only 34 for Dialga greatly surprises me. This means a 70-point team could fit one Dialga, 3 nine-point Pokémon, one eight-point Pokémon, and a one-point (very weak) Pokémon. This is still a six-Pokémon team.

We might end up needing to ban Ubers. This should probably be tested at some point in the future. Conversely, we might need to find a similar-yet-fundamentally-different set of equations.


And, it has been one year since this thread opened! Oh, yeah! :cool:

We could always test it and see how it goes. Do you think your 70 point team could go against the team you described? But we can always make our own ban list. The Battle Tower ban list might be a good start. Or we can just use Smogon's uber list.

As for the equation, I actually thought that we could add an extra modifier for pokemon with a base stat total of 600 or more. That would cover most all of the uber bans, and stop short of most everything else. Maybe multiply the value by 1.2 or something like that? That would take Dialga, for instance, up to a 41 instead of 34. That Giratina would be 35 instead of 29. It would raise pokemon like Garchomp and Salamence, too, without affecting the rest. It would raise a 20 point poke to 24, as an example. Just a thought. It would represent the ungodly stat distributions of the pseudo and legendary pokes.

And happy one year/thanksgiving to all the PVS supporters!
 
We could always test it and see how it goes. Do you think your 70 point team could go against the team you described? But we can always make our own ban list. The Battle Tower ban list might be a good start. Or we can just use Smogon's uber list.
:cool:

I'm sorry; I've just been enjoying using that smiley waaay too much. To be honest, I'm not really sure, so testing may be a good idea.

As for the equation, I actually thought that we could add an extra modifier for pokemon with a base stat total of 600 or more. That would cover most all of the uber bans, and stop short of most everything else. Maybe multiply the value by 1.2 or something like that? That would take Dialga, for instance, up to a 41 instead of 34. That Giratina would be 35 instead of 29. It would raise pokemon like Garchomp and Salamence, too, without affecting the rest. It would raise a 20 point poke to 24, as an example. Just a thought. It would represent the ungodly stat distributions of the pseudo and legendary pokes.

And happy one year/thanksgiving to all the PVS supporters!
That may indeed work. I'm a little bit uncertain about applying a multiplier in such a manner. But it may be the best option.

Happy Thanksgiving to all! And a great one-year anniversary of the PVS it is!
 

Prince Amrod

Dragon Tamer
a multiplier does seem like the best option for the +600 base pokemon, i think the metagame as it is now shows just how much damage one of those pokemon is capable of so it would reflect that power more closely if they had a higher value, and short of finding a fair number to add to their value, multiplier of 1.2 would seem very fair

happy 1 year anniversary!! cant believe its been a year already, where has the time gone
 

zodiacsage

Challenge Seeker
Well for all you PVS Battlers out there I would like to say I have reworked my team and welcome any of you to PM me for a battle anytime. If you do message me just let me know what times are best for you to meet up and have a match and in most cases I should be able to work my schedule around that. Hope to get some PVS battles in soon!
 
So is this going to be a separate metagame (like OU / Ubers) or another way to play entirely?

If you take this as the latter I fully support it. Simply by adding "point values" into games you can completely transform how matches are played. Possibly a battle with 50-60 points where Ubers are allowed, one in which your "flagship" Uber is a centerpiece of the battle. Maybe 70~ points where Ubers are banned, or an extremely restricted game of 20-30 points where something like Sunflora might be useful to alleviate the stress of having so few good options.

By using multiple rulesets you have the capacity to form an extremely varied and fun way of playing. I give this my full support in that case.

(sorry if I said anything already discussed or horribly wrong, I'm too lazy to read through 28 pages of STUFF)
 

Dragoon952

The Winter Moth
So is this going to be a separate metagame (like OU / Ubers) or another way to play entirely?

If you take this as the latter I fully support it. Simply by adding "point values" into games you can completely transform how matches are played. Possibly a battle with 50-60 points where Ubers are allowed, one in which your "flagship" Uber is a centerpiece of the battle. Maybe 70~ points where Ubers are banned, or an extremely restricted game of 20-30 points where something like Sunflora might be useful to alleviate the stress of having so few good options.

By using multiple rulesets you have the capacity to form an extremely varied and fun way of playing. I give this my full support in that case.

(sorry if I said anything already discussed or horribly wrong, I'm too lazy to read through 28 pages of STUFF)

You got the entire gist of it. It's a completely new system that will allow multiple ways of playing. You can essentially set any point value total you want, and in each case it will completely change what you see. There are no "tiers," but rather point value totals for teams. I just throw around Smogon terms because it's easy to understand, since most people know what yo umean when you say an "OU pokemon" and the like.

The "testing" that we're kind of doing now is to see at what point you see a truly fun, mixed game where you see pokemon from all over the place. Right now we are seeing what 70 point temas look like and what vareity you get. So, even though you can choose any point total you want, you can still have "standardized" battles where a lot of people like to battle. 70 seems to be good right now, but dropping it to 65 might even be better.

Essentially I have a value for all NU, UU, and OU pokemon (using Smogon terms) and I'm working on Ubers. It would be fun to test if Ubers were allowed under this system and see what happens. Work ok NFE at some point, too. And, the nice thing is that there shouldn't need to be any major changes when 5th gen is finally fleshed out, since I can fit them into the equation and churn out the numbers and work on minor changes from new moves and abilities for old ones.

Anyway, it's just an alternative. Smogon has been instrumental with all of its data, because I want to see if the equations are good at reflecting what people see with (sort of) unrestricted usage. It's good to compare to see if we're on track.

I welcome a veteran like you and your insight, so feel free to join us and see if you like it!
 
I welcome a veteran like you and your insight, so feel free to join us and see if you like it!

I second that! Since I've been defeated in the tournament, I'm thinking of challenging some people. I might have to challenge you sometime Blue Harvest!
 
If you could somehow set up a PO server that enforces these rules this could become big. Or at least bigger. I have a very small amount of programming experience so I'll look into it, but realistically we'd need experience volunteers to set it all up.

Otherwise.. any idea when the next tournament will be held?
 

Dragoon952

The Winter Moth
We're currently just waiting for the championship match to finish up in our first tournament. Once that's done, I'll post all of the battle video numbers I have so you can view the videos and get a taste of what some of the teams look like.

I might wait a bit for a second tournament. We had a lot of drop out issues from scheduling problems and not enough people to fill in. the idea might be too new to generate good interest for tournaments, so maybe a little advertising of the system beforehad will do the trick.
 

Kindrindra

大事なのは自分らしいくある事
I totally forgot to mention this when it was brought up earlier- I really like the idea of multiplying the value of pokemon at or above 600 BST is a good idea. I seem to recall there was another, similar idea earlier in the thread, but that was about giving a boost to pokemon with over 100 in two related stats- for example, attack and sp attack, allowing a pokemon a great degree of surprise (Example=Salamence. :p).
 
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