A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

[Dragoon952]

I am not simply saying "it can't be done". I am saying "This system is flawed for reasons A, B, C and D. Fix them, and it would be less flawed." My posts were more helpful then all posts saying "Great system" or "I hate the Smogon tiers".
If you can't take critisism, go ahead and leave the system broken. But if you want it to improve, I suggest taking the critisism.

Maybe you should double check your posts. Pointing out areas that need improvement is one thing. Marching in, saying you are missing variable in your first draft formula that less than a day ago didn't exist, and then declaring it DOA and saying it's impossible is completely different. I'm not reacting to helpful insight. I'm reacting to some of the people here that seemingly think a new idea is a personal affront to a system they already like and declare an idea impossible when it's barely come into existence yet. And I think saying "You can't express the power of a Pokémon in numbers. The closest thing would be usage. If you actually want a format such as this, it needs to be based on Smogon's tiers," is simply saying it can't be done.

I don't know where you ever got the idea that I ever implied this was a good, final formula. I simply threw it together as a starting point, showing that you can get at least some level of variability and predictability with a formula. You are acting like I presented a final formula after years of work for you to pick apart.

That all aside, and since you've changed your tone, I can say that your suggestions here are very, very helpful. The trick all along has been to add spacing between the pokemon to give them real values. And, Smogon is invaluable in being able to tell right off the bat if something doesn't look right. All of your suggestions are wonderful and they are very, very helpful.

 

[MaxiWant]

They shuld put garchomp back in ou. Its not faiiiiiir

 

[Kindrindra]

^Must... ignore... the... spam...

Anyway, it seems we just got a HUGE shipload of help. Great... now I have to figure out what he just said... (Let's see... so... you square that, and then...)

This could take a while ;^_^

 

[Jb]

that seems pretty solid.

 

[Sceptre]

Just thought I'd say this now while it's fresh in my mind.

A tournament may be the best way of testing this metagame when there is a draft list of the 493 and their values.

I know it's not going to happen today before anyone points that out but I had to post it before I forget lol.

 

[Dragoon952]

Ok, as a quick update, I came up with what I feel is a much better type modifier formula.

Normal and Dragon types were throwing me off, but I started from the ground up to see how to remedy the situation. I decided that I wanted a modifier of 1.0 to represent a theoretical completely neutral pokemon and, therefore, a neutral modification of the number presented. That made me realize that I shouldn't count neutral damage strictly in the numerator of the ratio. A completely neutral pokemon on defense would therefore be 17/17.

I also weighted immunities as 5 rather than 2

So, the new formula I'm using is as follows for type modifiers:

Attack Type Modifier = [(4 * # 4x Effective) + (2 * # 2x Effective) + #1x Effective] / [# 1x Effective + (2 * # 0.5x Effective) + (4 * # 0.25x Effective) + (5 * # Immunities)]

Defense Type Modifier = [(5 * # Immunities) + (4 * # 0.25x Effective) + (2 * # 0.5x Effective) + #1x Effective] / [# 1x Effective + (2 * # 2x Effective) + (4 * # 4x Effective)]

I've only worked out the Defense modifiers for now because there are only 17 types of attacks that can hit a particular defensive type. On the other hand, attacks can hit a much more varied amount of types and will have, I believe, 89 different type combinations to factor in (giving a theoretical neutral attacking pokemon a ratio of 89/89).

The defensive modifier, so far, looks pretty good and very predictable. These are the numbers I came up with (in descending order) using the new formula for a Defensive type modifier, and I believe it's pretty representative of type defensive capabilities. A value of 1.00 for the ratio would represent a pure neutral defense when everything is taken into account:

TYPE	0.25x Def	0.5x Def	1x Def	2x Def	4x Def	Immune	RATIO
Steel/Dragon	4	20	3	4	0	5	4.57
Flying/Steel	8	14	4	4	0	10	4.50
Water/Steel	8	18	2	6	0	5	4.13
Electric/Steel	8	20	1	4	4	5	3.78
Steel	0	22	2	6	0	5	3.63
Fighting/Steel	12	12	4	6	0	5	3.30
Fire/Steel	16	12	3	4	4	5	3.27
Steel/Ground	4	16	2	8	0	10	3.20
Bug/Steel	4	16	6	0	4	5	3.10
Steel/Psychic	4	14	6	4	0	5	2.90
Ghost/Dark	0	2	13	0	0	15	2.31
Rock/Steel	8	14	4	2	8	5	2.21
Electric/Ghost	0	10	7	6	0	10	2.08
Ghost/Dragon	0	12	5	8	0	10	2.08
Ghost/Flying	8	4	6	10	0	15	2.06
Electric/Flying	0	10	9	4	0	5	1.85
Poison/Dark	0	8	11	2	0	5	1.85
Ghost/Poison	8	2	8	8	0	10	1.75
Fire/Flying	8	6	8	4	4	5	1.69
Poison/Flying	12	2	8	8	0	5	1.69
Ghost	0	4	11	4	0	10	1.67
Flying/Dark	0	6	9	6	0	10	1.67
Fire/Dark	0	12	6	8	0	5	1.64
Water/Dark	0	12	6	8	0	5	1.64
Ground/Flying	0	6	10	2	4	10	1.63
Water/Poison	0	14	7	6	0	0	1.62
Water/Flying	0	10	9	2	4	5	1.60
Water/Ground	0	8	11	0	4	5	1.60
Water/Electric	4	8	10	4	0	0	1.57
Flying/Dragon	4	8	8	4	4	5	1.56
Water/Dragon	8	2	13	2	0	0	1.53
Bug/Ghost	0	8	6	10	0	10	1.50
Normal/Flying	0	4	10	6	0	10	1.50
Normal/Water	0	8	9	6	0	5	1.47
Fire/Ground	0	8	10	2	4	5	1.44
Fire/Fighting	4	10	6	8	0	0	1.43
Water/Fighting	0	14	6	8	0	0	1.43
Poison/Fighting	4	10	8	4	4	0	1.38
Ice/Ghost	0	6	7	10	0	10	1.35
Dark	0	4	12	4	0	5	1.31
Flying	0	6	10	6	0	5	1.31
Rock/Flying	0	10	6	10	0	5	1.31
Poison	0	8	9	4	0	0	1.31
Ground/Dragon	0	6	11	2	4	5	1.29
Dragon	0	8	11	4	0	0	1.27
Electric	0	6	13	2	0	0	1.27
Fire	0	10	9	6	0	0	1.27
Water	0	8	11	4	0	0	1.27
Poison/Bug	8	4	9	8	0	0	1.24
Ground	0	4	11	6	0	5	1.18
Normal	0	0	15	2	0	5	1.18
Bug/Ground	0	6	9	8	0	5	1.18
Normal/Psychic	0	2	13	4	0	5	1.18
Grass/Dark	0	12	4	10	4	5	1.17
Psychic/Flying	4	4	8	10	0	5	1.17
Rock/Dark	0	12	4	10	4	5	1.17
Bug/Flying	8	2	8	8	4	5	1.15
Fighting	0	6	12	4	0	0	1.13
Dragon/Psychic	0	12	6	10	0	0	1.13
Water/Psychic	0	12	6	10	0	0	1.13
Bug/Fighting	0	10	9	4	4	0	1.12
Bug/Water	0	10	9	8	0	0	1.12
Grass/Poison	4	6	9	8	0	0	1.12
Water/Grass	4	4	11	6	0	0	1.12
Water/Rock	4	8	8	6	4	0	1.11
Fire/Rock	4	10	7	4	8	0	1.11
Ground/Psychic	0	8	6	12	0	5	1.06
Grass/Flying	4	4	8	8	4	5	1.05
Ground/Rock	4	8	5	8	8	5	1.05
Bug	0	6	11	6	0	0	1.00
Fighting/Psychic	0	4	13	4	0	0	1.00
Grass/Fighting	0	12	6	8	4	0	1.00
Grass/Ground	0	4	10	6	4	5	0.95
Ice/Dark	0	6	8	8	4	5	0.95
Ice/Flying	0	4	10	6	4	5	0.95
Poison/Ground	0	6	8	8	4	5	0.95
Grass/Bug	8	6	6	8	8	0	0.91
Water/Ice	4	2	11	8	0	0	0.89
Grass	0	8	8	10	0	0	0.89
Psychic	0	4	12	6	0	0	0.89
Rock	0	8	8	10	0	0	0.89
Bug/Rock	0	4	12	6	0	0	0.89
Ice/Ground	0	2	10	10	0	5	0.85
Grass/Psychic	0	12	4	12	4	0	0.80
Grass/Rock	0	4	11	8	0	0	0.79
Rock/Psychic	0	10	5	14	0	0	0.79
Ice	0	2	12	8	0	0	0.70
Grass/Ice	0	8	6	12	4	0	0.64
Ice/Psychic	0	4	9	12	0	0	0.62

 

[Trainer Red]

I don't know if this idea has been said already but what about making it so that one has to use a pokemon from each of the pre-established smogon tiers in their team. For example, you would be required to have exactly one uber, one ou, one bl, one uu, one nu, and one nfe for your team. This could also of course be adjusted to be something like having one uber, one ou, two uu, and two nu per team or something like that.

 

[Dragoon952]

I don't know if this idea has been said already but what about making it so that one has to use a pokemon from each of the pre-established smogon tiers in their team. For example, you would be required to have exactly one uber, one ou, one bl, one uu, one nu, and one nfe for your team. This could also of course be adjusted to be something like having one uber, one ou, two uu, and two nu per team or something like that.

Well, I think the inherent problem is that only having four tiers mean pokemon only have one of four different values. So, looking at usage, #1 is no different value wise than #50 (or wherever the cut off is). You will still see less variety because, as they do in Smogon now, you are usually going to see the "best" of each tier when you battle. Personally, I get tired of seeing Scizor, Gyrados, etc. all day long.

With values established, hopefully it will start to be apparent why #1 in OU is #1 and #50 is #50.

 

[Agonist]

Regardless until a better system, smogons tiers are going to be standerd

 

[Dragoon952]

Regardless until a better system, smogons tiers are going to be standerd

Of course. No other system really exists yet. I'm just trying to get the ball rolling here.

 

[Agonist]

And I see that, and I think it would be great if there was a widely accepted alternative to the smogon tier system

 

[pokemaster001]

GAH!!!! MY BRAIN!!!!!
ok, sorry about that but it just seems like a really complicated system of numbers and stuff....I love the idea (not that I'm ever going to battle competitively, but still....) and I would love to help out in any way I can (which is probably not much)

seeing as I haven't been able to read through everything I'm not sure if you've covered this yet but would there be some sort of system for abilities? like ading a slightly higher defensive stat for intimidate (by comparison to the attacking pokemon's attack stat) and a slightly higher speed and defensive stat for static (because people know it has static and most contact moves are physical...and paralysis lowers their speed and they might not attack)
multi-ability pokemon would probably have the most common ability in competitive battling or have half of both

it's just a thought, mind you, but isn't that what this started out as (and still sort of is)?
and now I'm thinking of something...do you think game freak goes through similar calculations when creating new movesets or pokemon to try and make them balanced?

 

[kingofmaelstroms]

i simply think that smogon has underated some of the pokemon, like entei which smogon has rated as NU

 

[Dragoon952]

GAH!!!! MY BRAIN!!!!!
ok, sorry about that but it just seems like a really complicated system of numbers and stuff....I love the idea (not that I'm ever going to battle competitively, but still....) and I would love to help out in any way I can (which is probably not much)

seeing as I haven't been able to read through everything I'm not sure if you've covered this yet but would there be some sort of system for abilities? like ading a slightly higher defensive stat for intimidate (by comparison to the attacking pokemon's attack stat) and a slightly higher speed and defensive stat for static (because people know it has static and most contact moves are physical...and paralysis lowers their speed and they might not attack)
multi-ability pokemon would probably have the most common ability in competitive battling or have half of both

it's just a thought, mind you, but isn't that what this started out as (and still sort of is)?
and now I'm thinking of something...do you think game freak goes through similar calculations when creating new movesets or pokemon to try and make them balanced?

Haha, quite alright. Numbers are scary things But, keep in mind, the main discussion now is simply coming up with a formula to arrive at a total value. If the system works, no one has to do any calculations and you'll just have a simple list of Pokemon and their value (which should easily be established as a simple number). Those values should never change unless there is a movepool change or something similar. So don't be scared yet!

Abilities will indeed be factored in. Right now I'm just trying to get an accurate representation for attack and defense, but each ability will definitely be figured into the final formula somehow. For instance, Wonder Guard would change Shedinja's defensive type modifier, huge power would modify Medicham's attack stat, etc. That'll be a later step once the basics are figured out.

For Pokemon with several abilities, I'm sure there can be a calculation for both abilities so they each have a different point value.

As for what Game Freak does, it beats me. I'm sure they do testing to make sure certain pokemon aren't horribly unbalanced, but I don't know if they have a formula to give a specific value to the pokemon they make. But, even though it might not be expressed in numbers, I'm sure some of the core concepts of the formula come into play. That's why you see walls like Blissey and Probopass have low base attack values. I'm sure they take typing into consideration when establishing base stats and move pool. That being said, they obviously make some just for fun or knowing that they are very powerful. That's why certain ones are banned from the Battle Tower, I think, because they didn't want every online team to consist of powerful legendaries.

i simply think that smogon has underated some of the pokemon, like entei which smogon has rated as NU

That's part of the variety issue that I think a different system might help. There are a lot of pokemon that do something well, but there is just someone else that does it better. That doesn't make the pokemon worthless, it's just that a system that let's you freely choose A or B and A is slightly better, you are going to choose A if you want the best chance of winning. A formula style system, in essence, doesn't let you freely choose between A and B because limits are set. Choosing A instead of B might mean that another party slot will need to be filled with D instead of C.

 

[Agonist]

i simply think that smogon has underated some of the pokemon, like entei which smogon has rated as NU

The reason why smogon has entei as nu is because it's movepool is limited and it has no physical stab more powerful then fire fang

 

[muumajii23]

The reason why smogon has entei as nu is because it's movepool is limited and it has no physical stab more powerful then fire fang

Also 'cause it has a really bad typing... Fire gets a 25% hit from the ever popular Stealth Rock, and he also is hit by Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Sandstorm. So he racks up damage fast.

 

[1ee7leader]

Also 'cause it has a really bad typing... Fire gets a 25% hit from the ever popular Stealth Rock, and he also is hit by Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Sandstorm. So he racks up damage fast.

Yeah, he does.

 

[clone1]

This seems really though out and it could possible work with more research and work. Nice job! ^^

 

[Kindrindra]

No, there is no alternative to Smogon.

*Facepalm*

Exactly. That's because no one has made one. That's what's happening in this thread. (Jeez, why don't you actually read...?)

 

[jellsprout]

No, there is no alternative to Smogon.

Libelldra, I think Regi League, that thing VALO made (which doesn't appear to exist anymore?). Smogon just happens to be the most objective and most used.