A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

[Sceptre]

What happened to this?

 

[Kindrindra]

What happened to this?

Nothing happened to it... I think everyone's just waiting for Dragoon to calculate the 50-something offensive values, seeing as the rest of us seem to be to lazy to even start (Punches self).

 

[Kingdra+]

There is nothing 'objective' about smogon tiers.
It's just a small segment of the community (100+ on a good day) voting on what they PREFER and everybody following it for some reason.
Overall, it gets pretty tiresome as they are now arguing whether to consider Salamence for an Uber-ness 'test'.
Going the smogon route seems to mean less Pokemon and a rather stale game.
Personally, I'm fine with banning what is banned from Nintendo's in-game battle tower and letting the chips fall where they may.
Of course, I'm up for all alternatives to the endless banning process that is smogon's tiering.

 

[Dragoon952]

I guess it is time for an update.

I REALLY revamped the equations. To a confusing level if I even tried to explain it thoroughly

It's taking me some time to get the type modifiers worked out becuase it's a lot of busy work, but it seems to be doing a good job of what I want it to do and I have solved the few crazy results from my first run (particularly for normal and dragon typing).

Another pain in the butt is looking through ALL of the moves and seeing what needs to be factored in and what needs to be excluded. I've added factors for movepool, status effects, stat changes, and healing moves to cover some areas that make certain pokemon useful. But, I'm just trying to not go overboard to the point of deminishing returns from factoring in more. There will be a point where one more factor will take days of work and not really change values at all. I think I've hit that point, so now it's fine tuning.

I'm testing out a few calculations to see what the spread is like. I'm going to take a few pokemon from each tier to see where they end up. If it looks promising, I'll turn it all lose to try and get some helping filling in the other 400 some pokemon. Which will take some time to compile :/

It's getting there. Patience, friends!

EDIT:

Quick question, too. What would be the easiest way of posting an excel spreadsheet here? When I'm done with this first round I'd like to post it up for people to comb through.

 

[RegalStar]

I don't get why everyone's so worked up on Smogon tier lists. Except for banlists (Ubers and BL), Smogon's tier list is simply a compilation of number of usage on Smogon's Shoddy Server battle (which is as good a sample for competitive battles as any), and the concept "Pokemon X is in OU" simply means Pokemon X appears at least once in 20 teams on Smogon's Shoddy Battle server (if I understand the concept to be right). If a pokemon is in OU, that pokemon isn't more powerful than a pokemon in UU by definition, only means that people uses it more on Smogon's server. If you want something's tiering to go up, use it and convince other people to use it. If you want to claim that X in UU is more powerful than Y in OU, go ahead - invoking the tier list is a terrible counter-argument in that case.

 

[Dragoon952]

I don't get why everyone's so worked up on Smogon tier lists. Except for banlists (Ubers and BL), Smogon's tier list is simply a compilation of number of usage on Smogon's Shoddy Server battle (which is as good a sample for competitive battles as any), and the concept "Pokemon X is in OU" simply means Pokemon X appears at least once in 20 teams on Smogon's Shoddy Battle server (if I understand the concept to be right). If a pokemon is in OU, that pokemon isn't more powerful than a pokemon in UU by definition, only means that people uses it more on Smogon's server. If you want something's tiering to go up, use it and convince other people to use it. If you want to claim that X in UU is more powerful than Y in OU, go ahead - invoking the tier list is a terrible counter-argument in that case.

I think the gist of the problem is that if Pokemon A is even slightly better than Pokemon B, why use Pokemon B if A is available? That's what tiers do.

This whole project is attempting to give a reason to use B instead of A if the "point" difference allows you to invest it elsewhere. B does the same job, but maybe not as well, but it might free up enough value to get a better wall, for instance. It will hopefully make a metagame with more variety.

 

[RegalStar]

I see. So the point of this project is to create a salary cup-like system? That's a good idea, though I would honestly advise you to consider the Pokemon on an individual basis rather than trying to quantify their "power level", the reason being that BST (which is the only numerical property of a pokemon) is not a good indicator of how useful a pokemon is (as this post on smogon will show you: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59843), and other qualities about a pokemon (typing, movepool and ability) are very hard, if not impossible, to quantify.

 

[Dragoon952]

I see. So the point of this project is to create a salary cup-like system? That's a good idea, though I would honestly advise you to consider the Pokemon on an individual basis rather than trying to quantify their "power level", the reason being that BST (which is the only numerical property of a pokemon) is not a good indicator of how useful a pokemon is (as this post on smogon will show you: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59843), and other qualities about a pokemon (typing, movepool and ability) are very hard, if not impossible, to quantify.

THat's what I'm working on now. I have an equation that is attempting to take the following things into account:

Offense: Typing, STAB attack/special attack, movepool, and speed
Defense: Typing, defense/special defense, status effects, stat boosting, healing ability, entry hazards, and HP

I'm just now trying to figure out if everything is weighed properly.

 

[Sceptre]

THat's what I'm working on now. I have an equation that is attempting to take the following things into account:

Offense: Typing, STAB attack/special attack, movepool, and speed
Defense: Typing, defense/special defense, status effects, stat boosting, healing ability, entry hazards, and HP

I'm just now trying to figure out if everything is weighed properly.

Trust me, this guy knows EXACTLY what he's doing here people.

I'm rather anxious to see how this turns out, I will definitely be using your set of rules when there's something solid drawn up and I'm willing to test etc.

Earlier on your mentioned that you were gonna quantify a few from each tier. How did that go if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Dragoon952]

Trust me, this guy knows EXACTLY what he's doing here people.

I'm rather anxious to see how this turns out, I will definitely be using your set of rules when there's something solid drawn up and I'm willing to test etc.

Earlier on your mentioned that you were gonna quantify a few from each tier. How did that go if you don't mind me asking?

Well, it's taking a while to get a few put together, but the ones I've done so far are as follows:

Arceus (Normal): 33
Tyranitar: 24
Abomasnow: 17
Abra (both abilities): 6

If this is a trend that will continue, I'm hoping to see a apread of 1-10 for NFE/NU, 11-20 for UU, 21-30 for OU, and 31+ for Ubers.

Also, if that trend keeps up, taking the highest value for each tier SHOULD get battles that mix up the two corresponding tiers. For instance, if you set the value at 60 for a 6 vs. 6 battle, it should give a healthy mix of NFE/NU and UU because each point above 10 you spend to get a UU pokemon, you'll have to theoretically drop a pokemon somewhere by that many points (so picking a 15 would mean you'd have to pick a 5 somewhere else, assuming 1:1).

But, we'll have to see if there will be such a trend of ir some outliers start popping up.

 

[Sceptre]

This is looking nice so far. Arceus at 33 definitely seems fitting, same with the others. I think this metagame is gonna see the rise of the NFE pokes that never see the arena at the moment.

 

[Kindrindra]

Swezles, the final streach is in sight. Yay! ^^
Oh, as for the best way to post an excel document, I would say it would be to upload it to google docs, then post the link.

 

[TheFightingPikachu]

A Big Mistake to Beware!

What happened to this?

The same thing that happens to most threads on this site: It got buried in junk threads! You know I had planned on reviving this thread by saying something sarcastic like, "What?! Did people's ridicule get to you? Don't stop now--people need more ideas to make fun of! I mean...to analyze!"

I'm glad it's back though, because I had a few things to say. First of all, I have read every post in this thread. Thanks to all who understand the difference between attacking Smogon and just having a different idea!

But here's something important:

Any Pokemon can get a boost of 1.2x using Expert Belt, and Life Orb gives a boost of 1.3x but the 10% recoil effectively drops that boost to 1.2x.

(I hope the person who posted this doesn't come after me because I took the spoiler tags off this!)

Dragoon952, are you following Zowayix's advice? The above quote is a big error. A 130% boost to attack strength while losing 10% of your max HP when you damage an opponent is not the same as a 120% attack strength boost!

Using a Life Orb can mean the difference between sweeping three opponents (@ Battle Tower etc.) while losing only 30% of your health, and being knocked out because your move wasn't strong enough to K.O. a tough opponent.

Just wanted to share that.

 

[Dragoon952]

The same thing that happens to most threads on this site: It got buried in junk threads! You know I had planned on reviving this thread by saying something sarcastic like, "What?! Did people's ridicule get to you? Don't stop now--people need more ideas to make fun of! I mean...to analyze!"

I'm glad it's back though, because I had a few things to say. First of all, I have read every post in this thread. Thanks to all who understand the difference between attacking Smogon and just having a different idea!

But here's something important:

(I hope the person who posted this doesn't come after me because I took the spoiler tags off this!)

Dragoon952, are you following Zowayix's advice? The above quote is a big error. A 130% boost to attack strength while losing 10% of your max HP when you damage an opponent is not the same as a 120% attack strength boost!

Using a Life Orb can mean the difference between sweeping three opponents (@ Battle Tower etc.) while losing only 30% of your health, and being knocked out because your move wasn't strong enough to K.O. a tough opponent.

Just wanted to share that.

Appreciate the advice.

To be honest with you, items are an example of "diminishing returns" that I was talking about. Besides plates, items can be used by all pokemon without limitation with the same general effect. Well, besides the type boosting items, but doesn't every type have one of those?

Point being, if something gave a 10% boost in attack/special attack, every pokemon can get a 10% bonus as well. Taking all items into account would theoretically, I believe, just shift the point spectrum up a few notches without establishing a noticeable difference in value ratios.

For instance, let's take two values of 100 and 50. 100 is 2x higher than 50. Now, if we increase each by 10%, that would now give us values of 110 and 55. 110 is still 2x higher than 55.

As long as everyone has access to the same boost, it won't really change the difference in values and would just present unnecessary calculations.

I think that makes sense. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about that assumption.

 

[Sceptre]

Appreciate the advice.

To be honest with you, items are an example of "diminishing returns" that I was talking about. Besides plates, items can be used by all pokemon without limitation with the same general effect. Well, besides the type boosting items, but doesn't every type have one of those?

Point being, if something gave a 10% boost in attack/special attack, every pokemon can get a 10% bonus as well. Taking all items into account would theoretically, I believe, just shift the point spectrum up a few notches without establishing a noticeable difference in value ratios.

For instance, let's take two values of 100 and 50. 100 is 2x higher than 50. Now, if we increase each by 10%, that would now give us values of 110 and 55. 110 is still 2x higher than 55.

As long as everyone has access to the same boost, it won't really change the difference in values and would just present unnecessary calculations.

I think that makes sense. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about that assumption.

I'm with you here. It makes sense, in simple terms you mean item boosts can be applied to any Pokémon for the most part (exclusive items e.g soul dew excluded here) would just mean obsolete and unnecessary calculations as the boost is potential for all 493?

 

[TheFightingPikachu]

Testing All Things

Appreciate the advice.

To be honest with you, items are an example of "diminishing returns" that I was talking about. Besides plates, items can be used by all pokemon without limitation with the same general effect. Well, besides the type boosting items, but doesn't every type have one of those?

Point being, if something gave a 10% boost in attack/special attack, every pokemon can get a 10% bonus as well. Taking all items into account would theoretically, I believe, just shift the point spectrum up a few notches without establishing a noticeable difference in value ratios.

For instance, let's take two values of 100 and 50. 100 is 2x higher than 50. Now, if we increase each by 10%, that would now give us values of 110 and 55. 110 is still 2x higher than 55.

As long as everyone has access to the same boost, it won't really change the difference in values and would just present unnecessary calculations.

I think that makes sense. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about that assumption.

You are welcome! I strive to thoroughly, fairly, and honestly test all things. (And, yes, I learned that from the Bible.)

I just want to point out that, unlike Zowayix stated, it is a very bad idea to use items in these calculations. As several of us seem to be agreeing right now, most items are not Pokemon specific. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but even Aceus's Plates can be used by other Pokemon to gain just a simple power boost.) Also, most often, nobody will be completely able to tell what item you used. This means that many will easily get away with cheating in a system that attempts to regulate items.

Also, the same applies to Abilities. I know that Garchomp only has one Ability, but his is the perfect example of an Ability that cannot be directly detected.

Actually, when a system attempts to regulate both of those, the possibility of cheating is multiplied greatly. Unfortunately, I don't have an example on hand at the moment, but I'll try to find one.

 

[Dragoon952]

You are welcome! I strive to thoroughly, fairly, and honestly test all things. (And, yes, I learned that from the Bible.)

I just want to point out that, unlike Zowayix stated, it is a very bad idea to use items in these calculations. As several of us seem to be agreeing right now, most items are not Pokemon specific. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but even Aceus's Plates can be used by other Pokemon to gain just a simple power boost.) Also, most often, nobody will be completely able to tell what item you used. This means that many will easily get away with cheating in a system that attempts to regulate items.

Also, the same applies to Abilities. I know that Garchomp only has one Ability, but his is the perfect example of an Ability that cannot be directly detected.

Actually, when a system attempts to regulate both of those, the possibility of cheating is multiplied greatly. Unfortunately, I don't have an example on hand at the moment, but I'll try to find one.

Unfortunately abilities have to be taken into account and cause the biggest issue. There are several abilities that are easily quantifiable and, actually play an important role in determining the value of a pokemon. Good examples of this are Technician, Huge Power, Wonder Guard, etc. If some need to be taken into account, then they all do.

THe rest of them have to involve a little fudging because their usage is either entirely situational or hard to quantify. I'm trying my best to do that by making very, very slight adjustments based on abilities that MAY bump a pokemon up or down a point after rounding, but nothing drastic. That way the situational abilities still have a small effect taken into account and we can truly implement the important ones.

 

[TheFightingPikachu]

Clarification

Unfortunately abilities have to be taken into account and cause the biggest issue. There are several abilities that are easily quantifiable and, actually play an important role in determining the value of a pokemon. Good examples of this are Technician, Huge Power, Wonder Guard, etc. If some need to be taken into account, then they all do.

THe rest of them have to involve a little fudging because their usage is either entirely situational or hard to quantify. I'm trying my best to do that by making very, very slight adjustments based on abilities that MAY bump a pokemon up or down a point after rounding, but nothing drastic. That way the situational abilities still have a small effect taken into account and we can truly implement the important ones.

I have to make sure of something here: Let's say, for example, I fight using Scizor. Is a Scizor with Technician worth more points than one with Swarm? Or is the current plan to take both Abilities into account together in determining a Pokemon's point value?

If the plan is to make Technician Scizor worth a different amount of points, people can find a way to cheat the system. (Roughly the same thing applies to Soul Dew Latios--you might be able to tell if your opponent is using Soul Dew, but there are times when you may not.)

Though I've never actually battled using Smogon's tier system, anyone can instantly tell when someone is using Garchomp, Mew, Dialga, Arceus, or any other Pokemon. If they use these outside the Standard tier, you can easily catch cheaters.

It will most definitely not be as easy to tell if someone has lied about their Pokemon's point values based on different Abilities.

 

[Dragoon952]

I have to make sure of something here: Let's say, for example, I fight using Scizor. Is a Scizor with Technician worth more points than one with Swarm? Or is the current plan to take both Abilities into account together in determining a Pokemon's point value?

If the plan is to make Technician Scizor worth a different amount of points, people can find a way to cheat the system. (Roughly the same thing applies to Soul Dew Latios--you might be able to tell if your opponent is using Soul Dew, but there are times when you may not.)

Though I've never actually battled using Smogon's tier system, anyone can instantly tell when someone is using Garchomp, Mew, Dialga, Arceus, or any other Pokemon. If they use these outside the Standard tier, you can easily catch cheaters.

It will most definitely not be as easy to tell if someone has lied about their Pokemon's point values based on different Abilities.

Well, right now, it's a wait and see process. I currently am taking abilities into account, but in the end they may not make that much of a difference. We'll have to wait and see when the list is compiled. Either way there is several options. If there is little difference or no difference at all, you could just go with the higher of the two. If it does generate bigger differences here and there, you could always average the values and call it a day. Then you don't have to guess at the ability.

Basically, things like Technician make Scizor the OU beast that it is, and I want to see if that value pans out when taken into account mathematically.

 

[ExplodingMuk]

An Idea

I think the ideal would be to give certain items point values, no matter who they are attached to. Such as 2 for leftovers or 5 for life orb. Just an idea.