A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

[Steelix211]

*Bump*

Seeing as there aren't many regular posters, do you guys think it's worth trying to advertise the Point Value system?

 

[Dragoon952]

*Bump*

Seeing as there aren't many regular posters, do you guys think it's worth trying to advertise the Point Value system?

I've contemplated that, but not sure how to go about it. Maybe this thread should be moved to the competitve section? Also, I wonder if it needs to wait until all pokemon have values finished up.

I thought about going to smogon and seeing if anyone would be interested in helping. I've lurked the boards a few times, and I'm not sure if I want to put up with the hassle of some of the people over there. I'm sure there are plenty of nice people that post there, but there just seems to be too much elitism among some regular posters. I had to put up with plenty of resistance initially here at serebii, can't imagine what it would be like over there. And when I say resistance I don't just mean constructive criticism. Kind of boggled my mind actually.

However, anyone can feel free to spread the word around about this system and direct them here. If they are interested I'm sure they can sign up here at serebii and join in.

 

[TheFightingPikachu]

Maybe this thread should be moved to the competitve section? Also, I wonder if it needs to wait until all pokemon have values finished up.

I'm not sure moving the thread is a good idea. It might help, but then again, it might cause some people to forget about it.

However, anyone can feel free to spread the word around about this system and direct them here. If they are interested I'm sure they can sign up here at serebii and join in.

This is a good idea. Another thing to remember is that we can also tell others on Serebii. This is, after all, a huge forum. Only a small percentage of its members have even seen the PVS thread. I'm going to tell others on Serebii about this thread, that's for sure.

 

[Dragoon952]

This is a good idea. Another thing to remember is that we can also tell others on Serebii. This is, after all, a huge forum. Only a small percentage of its members have even seen the PVS thread. I'm going to tell others on Serebii about this thread, that's for sure.

THere was a thread in another subforum here about trying to find an alternative to smogon and he was directed here by several people. THey locked the thread because this thread already existed. But never saw the guy post here after that.

Maybe a mod could sticky this thread so it stays up top ;346;

 

[TheFightingPikachu]

Unfortunately, if we're both thinking of the same poster, he might have actually been some variant of a troll, just trying to annoy the status quo. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I don't think I saw him again.

It would be really cool if the mods would sticky this thread, but I doubt that will happen. There was at least one other thread, the Platinum Frontier Ranking Hall, that struggled along and the mods would never sticky it. It was a good thread, but when it got moved to the "My D/P/Pt Games" section, the thread maintainer went ballistic on the mods, then just quit. Sad.

Anyway, we can try to get this thread stickied, but I think a tournament, league, or social group would do the most good. (If we did any of those, we wouldn't need to get rid of this thread yet.) Whatever we decide to do, we all have done an excellent job keeping this alive!

 

[Dragoon952]

I set up a group for playtesters here:

http://www.serebiiforums.com/group.php?groupid=2660

Feel free to join up. Hopefully it will make it easier to find other players.

 

[Steelix211]

I've just joined the group Dragoon952. It could also come in handy for discussion in general about the PVS. I'm not sure how much of the un-valued Pokemon we'd need; we should be fine as long as we have most of them.

I'll definitely mention this to the other folk i know on this forum (all two of them!). I'm also part of the PE2K forums, so i'll try and spread the word there as well.

TheFightingPikachu, I completely agree with the tournament/league idea. I bet that loads of people will be interested just to try it out. Should help with advertising as well. Speaking of which, do you guys think I should try and get a banner made from somewhere?

 

[Dragoon952]

By banner, do you mean something to put in your signature? That's not a bad idea, if anyone is up for designing one. Can link it to this thread.

 

[Dragoon952]

By banner, do you mean something to put in your signature? That's not a bad idea, if anyone is up for designing one. Can link it to this thread.

 

[Steelix211]

That's the one. I know that the PE2K forums have an art board with loads of art shops, so I could easily get one made there. I think we'll have to come up with something catchy to put on the banner though!

Just a quick thought: Maybe I could create a thread similar to this one on the PE2K forums? There's a fair few folk that are into competitive battling there as well.

 

[Dragoon952]

That's the one. I know that the PE2K forums have an art board with loads of art shops, so I could easily get one made there. I think we'll have to come up with something catchy to put on the banner though!

Just a quick thought: Maybe I could create a thread similar to this one on the PE2K forums? There's a fair few folk that are into competitive battling there as well.

Like I said earlier, advertise as much as you want The more interest the better.

 

[Steelix211]

That’s me created the PE2K branch.
http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3109693#post3109693
Is there anything that I’ve missed out/need to include/remove? I've added all the Pokemon you've found values for to the quote at the start.

Btw, should priority be included in the formula somehow? I noticed that Pokémon such as Scizor and Hitmontop were both pretty low, despite the fact that they both commonly use priority attacks that negate the low speed they’d have in the formula.

 

[Dragoon952]

That’s me created the PE2K branch.
http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3109693#post3109693
Is there anything that I’ve missed out/need to include/remove? I've added all the Pokemon you've found values for to the quote at the start.

Btw, should priority be included in the formula somehow? I noticed that Pokémon such as Scizor and Hitmontop were both pretty low, despite the fact that they both commonly use priority attacks that negate the low speed they’d have in the formula.

Looks good. You'll have to let me know if it gains any interest.

I included priority has a factor by boosting the attack "power" by 30. So, something like Bullet Punch would be rated a 70 instead of a 40. That was further modified by Scizor's technician ability.

I also made a special rule for Scizor in particular because of his STAB technician priority move which I haven't really documented yet. In taking his STAB calculations, I separated Bullet Punch from the rest and calculated with an assume Speed modifier of the highest speed possible. It made little sense to modify it by Scizor's actual speed since it is a priority move.

I haven't done anything further to modify non-stab priority moves. For most, however, even with 30 bonus it isn't "stronger" than some other moves available in calculations terms, so taking it into account instead would actually lower the value. Because of Technician, Bullet Punch was actually the strongest physical move available for Steel STAB on Scizor, so he was the exception.

It will take some more testing, but it appears to me that hte problem with some monotype Fighting Pokemon is that they are mostly one dimensional. THey aren't getting value out of their defenses, and generally they are focused on physical attacks so they lose value on the special side as well. Support options seem to be limited, too. Testing will see if this value is truly representative for them, but if you think about it, when you see a Machamp, you basically know exactly what you're going up against because there doesn't seem to be a lot of versatility there.

 

[Steelix211]

Things are looking good so far; I've already got someone saying that he likes the idea behind it. I've also noticed that there are a few more people in the Playtesters group here as well.

Ahh, I get it now. I'm guessing you've done something similar with Pokemon such as Absol then?

I completely agree about the Fighting types; perhaps that low value is reasonable as many of them are quite predictable. I guess the question is whether or not their power and type coverage balances that predictability.

 

[Dragoon952]

Things are looking good so far; I've already got someone saying that he likes the idea behind it. I've also noticed that there are a few more people in the Playtesters group here as well.

Ahh, I get it now. I'm guessing you've done something similar with Pokemon such as Absol then?

I completely agree about the Fighting types; perhaps that low value is reasonable as many of them are quite predictable. I guess the question is whether or not their power and type coverage balances that predictability.

I think it will pick up a bit once word gets out and now that OU and UU are covered with a few NU mixed in. Most of the discussion here has been theory and the like and the playtesting phase really hasn't been going on that long.

In terms of Sucker Punch, I did add the 30 since it is a priority move, but I didn't make any further exceptions like I did with Bullet Punch even though it is a STAB priority move. Sucker Punch is still dependent on the action taken by the opponent so it doesn't operate with (arguably) the 100% efficiency of Bullet Punch. Same goes for Fake Out (Persian can use a Technician Fake Out, for instance) since it has limited applicability. So, it is still factored in, but I decided to group it normally instead of separating it like with Scizor.

Machamp can still have a few additional points added because of the unique No Guard/Dynamic Punch combo. I don't think the way i took No Guard into account has accurately valued that combination, so it might need its own special rule. In the test battles I've done Machamp has shown up quite a bit.

EDIT: Also, make sure to mention about the playtester group here. It would be good to have a centralized location for playtesters to talk and get together.

DOUBLE EDIT: 1.) You can direct any questions to me if someone needs something clarified, and 2.) I took a quick look at the thread and make sure you tell them that ubers are getting a second look. Someone had a question about Kyogre, and tell them that it will most likely get a special adjustment (like Scizor and possibly Machamp) because of the drizzle/water spout/choice scarf combo.

 

[Dragoon952]

Ok, since the other thread was generating some questions, I decided to try a Stealth Rock modifier.

I ran some simple numbers for a Stealth Rock damage adjusted value. I deducted 25% for a 2x weakness and 50% for a 4x weakness. This is what resulted from the Pokemon I've already done:

Pokemon, Original Value->New Value
Abomasnow, 12->9
Aerodactyl, 23->17
Altaria, 16->12
Arcanine, 13->10
Araidos, 6->5
Armaldo, 9->7
Articuno, 18->9
Beautifly, 10->5
Beedrill, 9->7
Butterfree, 10->5
Charizard, 19->10
Chatot, 12->9
Cloyster, 12->9
Crobat, 21->16
Dragonite, 19->14
Drifblim, 17->13
Farfetch'd, 8->6
Flareon, 10->8
Froslass, 17->13
Glaceon, 9->7
Glalie, 10->8
Gyrados, 15->11
Honchkrow, 16->12
Houndoom, 17->13
Moltres, 18->9
Mothim, 11->6
Ninetales, 12->9
Ninjask, 17->9
Pidgeot, 13->10
Salamence, 22->17
Scyther, 15->8
Staraptor, 14->11
Swellow, 16->12
Togekiss, 19->14
Walrein, 14->11
Weavile, 19->14
Xatu, 16->12
Yanmega, 17->13
Zapdos, 19->14

Does any of that sound reasonable? Did that kind of change solve some of the anomalies that are present?

Just an inital thought. The deduction might be too much, but I figured I'd ask for opinions.

 

[Kindrindra]

Well, it sounds good for the most part, but Ninjask bothers me. Since Ninjask is almost solely used as a lead to Baton Pass Speed and Attack on to another battler, Stealth Rock doesn't really apply to it. Then again, I suppose Stealth Rock makes it impossible for him to come back in and do it again, so it could work. Still, I would decrese Ninjask's decrese from a 50% one to a 25% one, to show that, being a lead, he typically isn't affected by it.

 

[Dragoon952]

Well, it sounds good for the most part, but Ninjask bothers me. Since Ninjask is almost solely used as a lead to Baton Pass Speed and Attack on to another battler, Stealth Rock doesn't really apply to it. Then again, I suppose Stealth Rock makes it impossible for him to come back in and do it again, so it could work. Still, I would decrese Ninjask's decrese from a 50% one to a 25% one, to show that, being a lead, he typically isn't affected by it.

Is Ninjask the only one with Speed Boost that can use Baton Pass? That could be reason enough to change that deduction. Give it a quantitative reasoning (in case new Pokemon come out in Gev V with similar situations).

 

[Kindrindra]

Yes, Ninjask is the only Baton Passer with Speed Boost, seeing as the Yamna line don't get Baton Pass. For increasing the amount, maybe some formula that takes into account how long they can get boosts? They can get at least one turn with Protect, another with a Focus Sash, and a third with another Protect. Yes, you can use something like Substitute to get more, but the average amount of boosts he'll be able to get is three. So, by sacrificing a single moveslot and item, he is garanteed -bar priority moves- to pass three speed ups. How would a triple boost effect a pokemon's calculations?

 

[TheFightingPikachu]

In terms of Sucker Punch, I did add the 30 since it is a priority move, but I didn't make any further exceptions like I did with Bullet Punch even though it is a STAB priority move. Sucker Punch is still dependent on the action taken by the opponent so it doesn't operate with (arguably) the 100% efficiency of Bullet Punch. Same goes for Fake Out (Persian can use a Technician Fake Out, for instance) since it has limited applicability. So, it is still factored in, but I decided to group it normally instead of separating it like with Scizor.

You're absolutely correct about Sucker Punch. It isn't quite the same as the other moves, but at this point that simplification is completely understandable.

Yes, Ninjask is the only Baton Passer with Speed Boost, seeing as the Yamna line don't get Baton Pass. For increasing the amount, maybe some formula that takes into account how long they can get boosts? They can get at least one turn with Protect, another with a Focus Sash, and a third with another Protect. Yes, you can use something like Substitute to get more, but the average amount of boosts he'll be able to get is three. So, by sacrificing a single moveslot and item, he is garanteed -bar priority moves- to pass three speed ups. How would a triple boost effect a pokemon's calculations?

That's funny--I tried to reply, and you beat me to that question! That's kind of a shame, because I got a Yanma off of XD with a Timid nature, and I thought it could learn Baton Pass. When i went and checked...I found it that doesn't work. Oh well.

Here is basically how a triple Speed Boost would affect the calculations of a Pokemon: When a Pokemon's Speed is up three levels, it is 250% of its usual (or two and a half times=2.5x). It could be described more in-depth than that, but in the PVS equations, Speed Value interacts with a number of things.


And regarding the above chart, the first thing that comes to my mind is...oh wow...many more of my favorite Pokemon are more usable now. Except only sort of. This might require a decrease in the point total cap, because Pokemon like Gyarados and Salamence might become too easy to use. I think something should most likely be done about Stealth Rock, but I'm not sure this quite works.

And maybe we should set a tentative date for a tournament? A tournament might be an easier first step than a league.