A Possible Alternative to Smogon Tiers

[Kindrindra]

So, 250%? Okay, then multiply Ninjask's value by 2.5, to reflect that not only is it garanteed to do that to it's own speed, but it can then pass it onto another battler, making, say, a slow yet extremely powerful attacker almost unstopable. That would bring his value to... 22.5. Whoa. That may be a bit much. Then again, it's close to Blissey, and, like Blissey, it's a somewhat situational pokemon that can easily earn the win.

 

[Kindrindra]

So, 250%? Okay, then multiply Ninjask's value by 2.5, to reflect that not only is it garanteed to do that to it's own speed, but it can then pass it onto another battler, making, say, a slow yet extremely powerful attacker almost unstopable. That would bring his value to... 22.5. Whoa. That may be a bit much. Then again, it's close to Blissey, and, like Blissey, it's a somewhat situational pokemon that can easily earn the win.

 

[TheFightingPikachu]

Scary High Speed

So, 250%? Okay, then multiply Ninjask's value by 2.5, to reflect that not only is it garanteed to do that to it's own speed, but it can then pass it onto another battler, making, say, a slow yet extremely powerful attacker almost unstopable. That would bring his value to... 22.5. Whoa. That may be a bit much. Then again, it's close to Blissey, and, like Blissey, it's a somewhat situational pokemon that can easily earn the win.

Actually, multiplying the Speed Value by 2.5 will not multiply the total Value by 2.5. The total Value of a Pokemon is Offensive Value + Defensive Value + Movepool Value. The Speed Value is factored into both the Offensive Value equation and the Movepool Value equation in different ways.

You are absolutely correct--22.5 for Ninjask would be waaaay too much.

 

[Dragoon952]

What I was referring to is making it a 25% decrease instead of a 50% decrease due to Speed Boost/Baton Pass (making it a popular lead). It would drop Ninjask from a 17 to a 13 instead of from 17 to 9. Would that be enough to compensate?

Back to the original "theory" it's hard to value something a few turns out. A lot can happen in three turns, you know?

 

[Kindrindra]

Yes, a simple 25% decrease instead of 50% would be a lot better.

Though Speed Boost pokemon should get some kind of boost. The best way would be to look at their defensive value; it stands to reason that the longer one survives, the greater the boost. However, how you factor the defense value into a value that creates the offensive value... I'm not sure.


Oh, almost forgot. Yes, TheFightingPikachu, I did guess that you wouldn't multiply the whole thing. The reason I did that was 1) It can pass on those boosts, and 2) I'm lazy. Mostly the latter. XD

 

[Dragoon952]

Yes, a simple 25% decrease instead of 50% would be a lot better.

Though Speed Boost pokemon should get some kind of boost. The best way would be to look at their defensive value; it stands to reason that the longer one survives, the greater the boost. However, how you factor the defense value into a value that creates the offensive value... I'm not sure.


Oh, almost forgot. Yes, TheFightingPikachu, I did guess that you wouldn't multiply the whole thing. The reason I did that was 1) It can pass on those boosts, and 2) I'm lazy. Mostly the latter. XD

I can't remember what I did for the Speed Boost ability off the top of my head, but it is possible that it isn't accurately taking it into account. Like I said before, abilities are where the real tweaking power lies. But if we're tweaking Speed Boost, it will affect Yanmega as well depending on what we do with it.

 

[Prince Amrod]

after keeping up with the thread, ive clicked to join the group, i think this is a great idea and the amount of work thats been put into it is astounding. i really hope this takes off now.

 

[Dragoon952]

after keeping up with the thread, ive clicked to join the group, i think this is a great idea and the amount of work thats been put into it is astounding. i really hope this takes off now.

Glad to hear it, the more the merrier! It's been a labor of love, but a labor nonetheless.

First off, I'm going to "officially" implement the Stealth Rock weakness modifier. That has seemed to really take care of quite a few outliers and was much needed anyway.

Ok, so first question for the masses. I'm still too focused on just getting the main values done and haven't really been able to give individual pokes thought, but maybe now that testing is going to start up it's time to deal with some "suspect" pokemon. The question is, would you rather discuss it here or start a thread in the playtester group?

Here are a list of what I've seen that need discussed:

1.) Scizor: is the modification I made for STAB Technician Bullet Punch sufficient? In light of the Stealth Rock modifier, does his Value of 16 accurately reflect his value?
2.) Machamp: No Guard needs to have more oomph to boost Machamp since he seems too low.
3.) Ninjask: Speed Boost/Baton Pass: Does it need further modification or does reducing the Stealth Rock modifier to -25% rather than -50% good enough? (i.e., is 13 an accurate value for Ninjask or does that need to go higher).
4.) Gyrados: With Stealth Rock, is 11 even close to accurate? Is his lack of FLying STAB moves and a support movepool really limit his value that much or is there something specific that needs accounted for?

Those seem to be the main culprits. I think Scizor, in light of the Stealth Rock Modifier, looks about right at 16 since that is a pretty high value now. So he might be solved.

Second question for the masses: With the Stealth Rock modifier in place, what should the new standard OU/UU mixed team value be? 75 might be too high now.

Anyway, let's keep the convo going.

 

[Steelix211]

I'm not sure about where we should discuss it, but I'll mention those questions on the PE2K thread as well.

At the moment, I think that the numbers seem a bit too close together, but maybe that's just me. Even if they were, that would just be a matter of multiplying them all by the same number.

We could try team values of around 65-70 and see how they turn out.

 

[Dragoon952]

I'm not sure about where we should discuss it, but I'll mention those questions on the PE2K thread as well.

At the moment, I think that the numbers seem a bit too close together, but maybe that's just me. Even if they were, that would just be a matter of multiplying them all by the same number.

We could try team values of around 65-70 and see how they turn out.

I think it was suggested to make the values in the 100's instead of 10's. Which can easily be done by dividing by 10 rather than 100 in the equation.

 

[Dragoon952]

Ok, when I was working out the new stealth rock numbers and calculating in 10's and 100's, I came across two major calculation shifts that I want to implement. This means the equations are changing slightly and it might take me a while to run the newest set of numbers.

The two changes, which I think were leading to some under/overvaluing before, are as follows:

1.) Currently, offensive movepool numbers are lumped in with all other movepool aspects and are modified by the average of the Speed and HP stat modifiers. There really is no reason for that, and they should be modified by the Speed modifier separately before being added to the movepool numbers. This will eliminate a lot of discrepancies for pokes with high speed but low HP. No reason HP should figure into it. It will also affect pokes like Blissey, where the huge HP modifier should have no affect on those purely offensive numbers.

2.) For status affects that are secondary effects to attacks, I've been adding them together for each attack that has such an effect. It really should only take into account the highest value out of all of them because you can only cause the effect at the highest rate available. So, if three moves have a 20%, 30%, and 30% chance to flinch, it should really only be taken into account as 30 rather than 80. That can make a huge difference for some pokemon, because as it stands 80 would add .8 to the overall value (or more/less depending on the average modifier). That's way too much.

So, in other words, I'm going to go back and make those changes and it might be a while for that to get done, considering I have to go into every one I've done so far.

MATH IS FUN.

 

[Steelix211]

Dragoon, perhaps you should try those changes on the over/undervalued Pokemon first, to see if it changes their value significantly? That way you don't need to make unnecessary changes to any of the other Pokemon.

 

[Zowayix]

I thought of something that might work.

Since Stealth Rock deductions seem to lower values too much, how about factoring out the "standard" 1/8 deduction, so that 25% now becomes (3/4)/(7/8), or 6/7 (a ~14% deduction), while 50% becomes (1/2)/(7/8), or 4/7 (a ~43% deduction). Since a 25% SR weakness isn't that much while a 50% weakness is a severely crippling, these edited values would help reflect that.
Also, a 1/16 deduction (SR resistance) becomes (15/16)/(7/8) or 15/14 (a ~7% increase) while a 1/32 deduction (SR double resistance) becomes (31/32)/(7/8) or 31/28 (an ~11% increase). This allows a slight increase for those that resist Stealth Rock.
The same can be applied to Magic Guard which gives Clefable and its evolution line an SR immunity.

Basically:
SR double weak -> Value becomes 4/7 original value (~43% drop)
SR weak -> Value becomes 6/7 original value (~14% drop)
SR resist -> Value becomes 15/14 original value (~7% increase)
SR double resist -> Value becomes 31/28 original value (~11% increase)
SR immunity (Magic Guard) -> Value becomes 8/7 original value (~14% increase)

EDIT:
This probably wouldn't work so well for Shedinja...should Shedinja keep its 14% drop or have some other modifier?

 

[Dragoon952]

I thought of something that might work.

Since Stealth Rock deductions seem to lower values too much, how about factoring out the "standard" 1/8 deduction, so that 25% now becomes (3/4)/(7/8), or 6/7 (a ~14% deduction), while 50% becomes (1/2)/(7/8), or 4/7 (a ~43% deduction). Since a 25% SR weakness isn't that much while a 50% weakness is a severely crippling, these edited values would help reflect that.
Also, a 1/16 deduction (SR resistance) becomes (15/16)/(7/8) or 15/14 (a ~7% increase) while a 1/32 deduction (SR double resistance) becomes (31/32)/(7/8) or 31/28 (an ~11% increase). This allows a slight increase for those that resist Stealth Rock.
The same can be applied to Magic Guard which gives Clefable and its evolution line an SR immunity.

Basically:
SR double weak -> Value becomes 4/7 original value (~43% drop)
SR weak -> Value becomes 6/7 original value (~14% drop)
SR resist -> Value becomes 15/14 original value (~7% increase)
SR double resist -> Value becomes 31/28 original value (~11% increase)
SR immunity (Magic Guard) -> Value becomes 8/7 original value (~14% increase)

EDIT:
This probably wouldn't work so well for Shedinja...should Shedinja keep its 14% drop or have some other modifier?

That's an interesting thought. Would it be easier, if decudting the 1/8 standard damage, to just subtract 1/8 from each amount of damage done?

So, a Stealth Rock weakness would normally deduct 1/4, but deducting the standard 1/8 would be (1/4) - (1/8) = 1/8 = 12.5% reduction (Value x 0.875). A double weakness would then be 3/8 = 37.5% reduction (Value x 0.625). Would that be more representative of the drop in value by removing the standard deduction?

As for taking Stealth Rock resistance into account, I guess the question is this: do people take that into account when choosing pokemon? Is it a big enough factor that people look for it? I ask that honestly because I don't know.

Shedinja is one of those unique guys that is going to take some bit of subjectivity with Wonder Guard, so it will probably wait until last (along with Wynaut and Wobuffet).

 

[Steelix211]

Zowayix, that's a pretty good idea - that way the Pokemon that resist it get a bit of a boost. I'm not sure about anyone else, but when teambuilding I try to to balance out Pokemon that resist Stealth Rock with those that are weak to it, so the resistors would probably deserve a slightly higher value.

Speaking of entry hazard resistors, should Clefable get a positive modifier for Spikes and Toxic Spikes too? Is it necessary to also add a modifier for all the Levitating/Flying/Poison/Steel Pokemon that resist these?

Dragoon, how are you getting on with those adjustments to the formula? Any changes to Scizor, Gyarados, Machamp, etc?

 

[Dragoon952]

Zowayix, that's a pretty good idea - that way the Pokemon that resist it get a bit of a boost. I'm not sure about anyone else, but when teambuilding I try to to balance out Pokemon that resist Stealth Rock with those that are weak to it, so the resistors would probably deserve a slightly higher value.

Speaking of entry hazard resistors, should Clefable get a positive modifier for Spikes and Toxic Spikes too? Is it necessary to also add a modifier for all the Levitating/Flying/Poison/Steel Pokemon that resist these?

Dragoon, how are you getting on with those adjustments to the formula? Any changes to Scizor, Gyarados, Machamp, etc?

I think I'm about half way through with the adjustments on the Pokemon already listed. Right now I'm just sticking with the -25%, -50% stealth rock modifiers until something else is worked out.

I think Clefable would be best dealt with by giving an arbitrary bonus for his ability. I already did that, but it can always be adjusted up or down if people think he is off. As for levitators, I tried to take that into account. I had the defensive type modifier adjsuted for the ground immunity and I added an arbitrary value to the movepool number (25 I beleive) to account for entry hazard resistance. Again, that arbitrary modifier can be adjusted up or down if need be, but that's a little harder because it will affect more than one pokemon.

Scizor shouldn't have much of a change because he is Stealth Rock neutral, but I'm not quite sure if the adjustments will have any effect on him. The adjustments I'm making really only have a major affect on Pokemon with a large difference between their speed and their HP stats. Gyrados was dropped to an 11 because of Stealth Rock. I'm not sure how that will play out, but with the new numbers that is still high seeing as how there seems to be an average between 7-9 for most mid grade pokemon (meaning he's still above average). I tried making a new rule for No Guard by taking into account the 100% confuse rate of dynamic punch even though it isn't listed as one of the "most powerful" moves. That change boosted him up to a 9, but testing will tell if that needs adjusted further.

Hopefully I can post the new numbers this weekend. Does anyone have a way to block real life without any ramifications?

 

[Talz]

So would this bring about a separate, fully functioning teir list used by Serebii, or be the birth of a new competitive community that won't just bend over to Smogon or what?

Sorry for just barging in, but this thread is now so long.

 

[Kindrindra]

So would this bring about a separate, fully functioning teir list used by Serebii, or be the birth of a new competitive community that won't just bend over to Smogon or what?

Sorry for just barging in, but this thread is now so long.

Basically, it's an alternate metagame than the Smogon teirs. However, it's not quite as clear cut as choice one and choice two. This system assigns pokemon differing numerical values based on a number of factors, and gives you a maximum number you may not go above. Because it functions completly differently this method (PVS) can actually couple with Smogon quite interestingly. Say you have an OU match with a max value of 75. Would mean you can use pokemon who's values do not total over 75, but cannot use Ubers.

 

[TheFightingPikachu]

Lots of PVS Ideas

First off, I'm going to "officially" implement the Stealth Rock weakness modifier. That has seemed to really take care of quite a few outliers and was much needed anyway.

Okay. I might caution though, that 25% and 50% decreases might just be a little too much. On the other hand, it could be just right.

Ok, so first question for the masses. I'm still too focused on just getting the main values done and haven't really been able to give individual pokes thought, but maybe now that testing is going to start up it's time to deal with some "suspect" pokemon. The question is, would you rather discuss it here or start a thread in the playtester group?

Here are a list of what I've seen that need discussed:

1.) Scizor: is the modification I made for STAB Technician Bullet Punch sufficient? In light of the Stealth Rock modifier, does his Value of 16 accurately reflect his value?
2.) Machamp: No Guard needs to have more oomph to boost Machamp since he seems too low.
3.) Ninjask: Speed Boost/Baton Pass: Does it need further modification or does reducing the Stealth Rock modifier to -25% rather than -50% good enough? (i.e., is 13 an accurate value for Ninjask or does that need to go higher).
4.) Gyrados: With Stealth Rock, is 11 even close to accurate? Is his lack of FLying STAB moves and a support movepool really limit his value that much or is there something specific that needs accounted for?

Those seem to be the main culprits. I think Scizor, in light of the Stealth Rock Modifier, looks about right at 16 since that is a pretty high value now. So he might be solved.

Let's discuss these things here in the thread.
(1) I think Scizor is about right at 16.
(2) I don't particularly think Machamp is too low, because as some have said, basically the only reason he could get into OU is No Guard/Dynamicpunch. It's cool and all--I like it--but I don't think that combination is especially valuable.
(3) Is Ninjask really only used for Speed Boost/Baton Pass?
(4) I'm pretty sure Gyarados is worth more than 11. Gyarados can actually get the Flying type move Bounce, BTW, which is better than nothing. I can't say for certain why Gyarados is as good as he is.

Second question for the masses: With the Stealth Rock modifier in place, what should the new standard OU/UU mixed team value be? 75 might be too high now.

Anyway, let's keep the convo going.

Good question. I wish I had a good answer!

MATH IS FUN.

Amen.

Basically:
SR double weak -> Value becomes 4/7 original value (~43% drop)
SR weak -> Value becomes 6/7 original value (~14% drop)
SR resist -> Value becomes 15/14 original value (~7% increase)
SR double resist -> Value becomes 31/28 original value (~11% increase)
SR immunity (Magic Guard) -> Value becomes 8/7 original value (~14% increase)

These decreases sound like they might be a bit more workable than 25% and 50% decreases. However, I'm not really sure Stealth Rock resistance needs any bonus. Overall, I like this idea.

On an entirely different note, wouldn't it be interesting if more Pokemon were completely immune to Stealth Rock?

I tried making a new rule for No Guard by taking into account the 100% confuse rate of dynamic punch even though it isn't listed as one of the "most powerful" moves. That change boosted him up to a 9, but testing will tell if that needs adjusted further.

Okay, Machamp doesn't sound too high at 9.

Does anyone have a way to block real life without any ramifications?

Block? No. Circumvent? If you want to time-travel! (Anybody got a used time machine?) Do mathematical work, go back in time with your newfound knowledge, use your newfound free time on real life--it's that simple. I've thought of how cool it would be to take whole college courses, memorize whole books of the Bible, or discover new fields of mathematics through time travel. I wish it worked, but it would get into the wrong hands.

And Kindrindra, great explanation of the PVS!

Finally, I just want to remind everyone of my suggestion from the previous page: How about we set a tentative date for a tournament? I'm getting back from my vacation in a few days, so it wouldn't have to be too far off. It might just be the best advertising we could do.

 

[Dragoon952]

Sorry, been on a business trip and haven't had much time recently. But I'm back.

A tournament could actually work. I'm really close to finishing the adjustments, so a tournament could be workable. Still, it might be useful to get some semblance of a total team value to work with so people can prepare. If I can get the new numbers up soon then it would give everyone a better idea.