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A Riveting Rivalry! (931)

Frozocrone

Miraculous!
I would call anime logic on Pikachus wood throw attack but improvising is part of the regional tournaments, so I will allow it. (and I did like watching the jumping between stuff in mid air scenes)

The final match was neat to see.

I won't. Anime logic is Pikachu hitting that wood and beating Aegislash - OK, that's fine. What's absolutely not fine is the blatant disregard for gravity.
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
ITT incredibly praised thing in XY suddenly he becomes the worst thing ever because dub

In other news, water is wet

Also Greninja having trouble with getting close and suddenly DEM Water Shuriken appears, enough said.
DEM misuse! *takes a drink*
Because it shouldnt really be a surprise the water shuriken that's been shown to be super strong ends up being super strong

It makes more sense from a narrative perspective if Sawyer wins and why I was rooting for Sawyer to win.
No.... Sawyer won the previous battle (I don't care if it apparently "wasn't legit", Sawyer was kicking his *** even before the synch mishap) AND HES A FRESH YOUNG TRAINER STILL GOING UP AGAINST A 6 REGION EXPERIENCED ASH, no way in hell it should've a win and I garuntee everyone would've hated that.
 
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U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
ITT incredibly praised thing in XY suddenly he becomes the worst thing ever because dub

In other news, water is wet

To say nothing when Ash vs Alain comes around ...
 

Frozocrone

Miraculous!
ITT incredibly praised thing in XY suddenly he becomes the worst thing ever because dub

I was able to pay attention to the battle more. In the Japanese version, the score is too good to not pay attention too. The only good thing about this battle is that it got Ash to top 2, which is a huge achievement considering the previous times he's entered the league (side note, I don't think this was the worst thing ever, but it was still pretty bad).

DEM misuse! *takes a drink*
Because it shouldnt really be a surprise the water shuriken that's been shown to be super strong ends up being super strong

Please show me where Water Shuriken (that was sliced before by Sceptile and Mega Sceptile) was shown to be strong. It came out of nowhere after Greninja couldn't get close (Shauna points this out).

No.... Sawyer won the previous battle (I don't care if it apparently "wasn't legit", Sawyer was kicking his *** even before the synch mishap) AND HES A FRESH YOUNG TRAINER STILL GOING UP AGAINST A 6 REGION EXPERIENCED ASH, no way in hell it should've a win and I garuntee everyone would've hated that.

It was made to seem like Sawyer only won because Ash couldn't sync with Greninja. It's still a win, but Sawyer doesn't count it because he doesn't see Ash at his best. How can you root for Ash when he only loses because he's not at his best? If anything you want Sawyer to win because you want to see him grow and actually beat Ash through a fair fight, not because Ash isn't trying. I understand we all want Ash to win because he's the main protagonist, but it's hard to want him to win when his opponent's are nothing more than a speed bump. Let's hope Alain provides a better challenge.

Said 'fresh young trainer' has also been taking notes throughout his journey in order to get smarter in battle - so no, he's not 'fresh'. He's learning all the time and the league was the culmination of all of his obtained knowledge.
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
I was able to pay attention to the battle more. In the Japanese version, the score is too good to not pay attention too. The only good thing about this battle is that it got Ash to top 2, which is a huge achievement considering the previous times he's entered the league (side note, I don't think this was the worst thing ever, but it was still pretty bad).
I just think it's silly how someone is apparently incapable of watching and judging a battle just because of good music but now that the mood and emotion has been stripped away by the dub it *gasp* ends up being worse, imagine that. I just don't see how this was anything close to a bad rival battle with no redeeming qualities when the only criticisms I see are "the wood floated for to long, I can't root for Ash so Sawyer should've won, and the final battle suddenly sucks when half the reason it was good was taken away in the dub"



Please show me where Water Shuriken (that was sliced before by Sceptile and Mega Sceptile) was shown to be strong. It came out of nowhere after Greninja couldn't get close (Shauna points this out).
It was shown to be strong in its many previous battles? Most notable in its debut appearance against Diantha


It was made to seem like Sawyer only won because Ash couldn't sync with Greninja. It's still a win, but Sawyer doesn't count it because he doesn't see Ash at his best. How can you root for Ash when he only loses because he's not at his best? If anything you want Sawyer to win because you want to see him grow and actually beat Ash through a fair fight, not because Ash isn't trying. I understand we all want Ash to win because he's the main protagonist, but it's hard to want him to win when his opponent's are nothing more than a speed bump. Let's hope Alain provides a better challenge.

Said 'fresh young trainer' has also been taking notes throughout his journey in order to get smarter in battle - so no, he's not 'fresh'. He's learning all the time and the league was the culmination of all of his obtained knowledge.
Again, improving doesn't mean you instantly should be a expert after one region, people were complaining enough about Sawyer's rushed as hell growth and him winning would've been the final nail in the coffin
 
So good music prevents people from judging battles the right way?
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
So good music prevents people from judging battles the right way?

A battle in real life can be judged without the music. A battle in media like animation or live action needs to be judged on multiple factors. Music that sets the tone, choreography, coloring, fluidity of animation. All are factors.
 

Frozocrone

Miraculous!
So good music prevents people from judging battles the right way?

I just think it's silly how someone is apparently incapable of watching and judging a battle just because of good music but now that the mood and emotion has been stripped away by the dub it *gasp* ends up being worse, imagine that. I just don't see how this was anything close to a bad rival battle with no redeeming qualities when the only criticisms I see are "the wood floated for to long, I can't root for Ash so Sawyer should've won, and the final battle suddenly sucks when half the reason it was good was taken away in the dub"

Similar sort of post so I'll address at same time - I tend to get caught in the moment. Call it a flaw on my part - so when the music/VA quality went away, I was watching just the battle, if that makes sense. (I would also say the quick battles were also a criticism that I left out in my first text post, but that can be applied to the rest of the league in general, with the spot light only really shining on Sceptile, Greninja and MCX (possibly Pikachu).

It was shown to be strong in its many previous battles? Most notable in its debut appearance against Diantha

It doesn't explain where the giant Water Shuriken came from (I'd also argue that against Diantha, there was no conclusion as to whether it would land the finishing blow, since Ash passed out).

Again, improving doesn't mean you instantly should be a expert after one region, people were complaining enough about Sawyer's rushed as hell growth and him winning would've been the final nail in the coffin

Of course not, which is a problem for me in terms of his character. Should have been introduced as a rival earlier in the series, not as a Scottie cameo vs Clemont. But he was still learning all the time and writing in his notebook and constantly showing us he's trying to get better.
 

Pikachu52

Well-Known Member
Rather late to reviewing this one. The episode was mostly the Ash Sawyer rivalry finish which more or less went down as expected with Ash winning though Sawyer evidently having grown alot too. Relatively typical for Pokémon, so I'm not going to discuss that. I'm only really interested one character in this episode; ;025;. For most of the battle Pikachu has been amazing. He took out two of Saywer's Pokémon, which is impressive given Hawlutcha went down in the first round, Goodra and Noivern were double knock outs and even the mighty Greninja only took out Scepitle. Then he battle Scepitle and lost - he shouldn't have. In a BW episode I ran the argument that Pikachu of all of Ash's Pokémon should not be beaten by trainers who are clearly weaker than Ash. That kinda plays out here - Sawyer's a novice trainer and there is simply no way Sceptile has greater experience or strength than Pikachu. Sceptile won way too easily - it didn't even need to Mega evolve. Mega Sceptile defeating Pikachu would have made more sense simply given it's ability prevents him using his best moves. The battle ultimately seemed to exist for no reason other than to sweep Pikachu aside to make way for his Magesty Greninja to take his place. Pikachu really shouldn't have been used agaisnt Sceptile at all - Ash should simply have gone straight to greninja. That way he would have won with two Pokémon still standing as opposed to the tense even finish we had. Ash is an experience and competent trainer and Pikachu has in previous series taken down Regice and Latios. He shouldn't have these sorts of losses as here and in BW. But in this case it's less detrimental as Ash won in the match - Which is how Pikachu should be written. Losses infrequent and inconsequential unless necessary for the plot.

It was made to seem like Sawyer only won because Ash couldn't sync with Greninja. It's still a win, but Sawyer doesn't count it because he doesn't see Ash at his best. How can you root for Ash when he only loses because he's not at his best? If anything you want Sawyer to win because you want to see him grow and actually beat Ash through a fair fight, not because Ash isn't trying. I understand we all want Ash to win because he's the main protagonist, but it's hard to want him to win when his opponent's are nothing more than a speed bump. Let's hope Alain provides a better challenge.

Said 'fresh young trainer' has also been taking notes throughout his journey in order to get smarter in battle - so no, he's not 'fresh'. He's learning all the time and the league was the culmination of all of his obtained knowledge.

Sawyer only winning agaisnt Ash because of Ash being off game is a plausible explanation for that loss. A fair fight would always have gone to Ash. Sawyer may have taken notes and had a reasonable strategy, but at the end of the day he has, being generous, a 6th of the experience that Ash does. He's still a novice and this is his first leauge, yet he's still in the Semi-final. It took Ash 4 generations to get to that position and he couldn't maintain it in the 5th. He's done better that is arguably realistic for a character introduced as a novice even within Pokémon's cannon. All the notes and culmination of obtained knoweldge, which isn't huge given Sawyer's short journey, can't replace Ash's long developed skills, strenght and the close bond he was with his Pokémon.
 
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the1stpkmnfan

Your Big Buff Bro
Pretty weird pacing going on. Double draws felt like BS, though. Bet its because the writers didn't want both Noivern or Goodra to be total losers entirely. Such a lame way to play out.

Honestly, Sceptile VS Greninja was the real highlight here. I was enjoying the animation up to the end, so that paid off very well.

Yay, finals time.
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
Ignoring animation, Ash vs Gary is way more rushed and there were a gross amount of one/two shots. The final match up, Heracross vs Magmar, and the rivalry itself(and just the wonder of seeing Ash and Gary finally battle) are the only REALLY good highlights to me

Yeah the Ash vs. Gary battle didn't even start until after the WTP of ep 1 of that battle

T1: Paul
T2: Gary, Trollbias, Leprechaun
T2.5: Tyson, Katie
T3: Morrison, Harrison
-
T5: Cameron

Where do Drake and Paul part 1 fit in?

Your misinterpreting what I said



Your right they're both different when it comes to personality and everything that makes them tick... but battle wise they are practically the same. Ash has heavily relied on Ash-Greninja is every single one of his fights since his evolution (even basically once it became a Frogadier) bar the Astrid battle. Same with Alain and Mega Charizard X. Everyone else has gotten shafted over the coarse of the series bar the Gym battles Talonflame got to participate in.

Frogadier didn't battle in the fifth or sixth gyms. It's nowhere near Chimchar levels of starter overuse
 

Mega Altaria

☆~Shiny hunter▢~
Still a somewhat intense battle between Sawyer and Ash and it was nice to see Ash-Greninja's shuriken become even larger, showing that Ash has gone to another level of synchronisation. Glad that at least he made it to the finals and nice to see the Alain smile in the end that he found out that his next challenger is Ash. But still I'd like to see more of the Noivern vs Salamence and the Goodra vs Slurpuff despite the focus being on Ash-Greninja vs Mega Sceptile.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
Frankly, I was pleased when Onvern tied with Shota's Bohmander. Since Onvern hadn't received much training, a draw against a fellow Dragon-type seemed fitting. I also enjoyed Mega Jukain versus Satoshi-Gekkouga.
 
The battle animation was so good. It was strange how this rivalry between Ash and Sawyer went down. Ash was more or less the superior for the majority of it, before Sawyer surpassed him but ultimately lost in the League. Noivern vs Salamence was unbelievable. Noivern has had at best a handful of battles with only one victory under its belt prior to this point.
 

Sinnoh Ash

Electrifying Hair
This match was amazing and I loved the monologues the two were having before the final phase.
Sawyer: You were my goal
Ash: And you ended up surpassing me
Such a great scene to conclude their mentor and student relationship.

The amount of haters on Serebii for Ash vs Sawyer's match is hilarious. Everywhere else this battle is praised as one of the best of any league. Don't worry I get it, when the next league comes around I'm sure this match will be the great match to be compared to just like how much the league battle of Ash vs Paul was hated in their discussion threads but now is the pedestal for league matches. Don't believe me, go look back at the discussion threads for Ash and Paul's 3 episode battle. Lol how fickle
 

RafaSceptile

Well-Known Member
What the...5 YEARS?!

Anyways, reviewing the Pokémon anime in 10 words or less:
"One of the best animated battles ever"

Episode: 10/10
Now a bit longer, this episode was the best one for the Kalos League. It has the action (usual from XY), it has awesome animation especially in the Ash-Greninja vs Mega-Sceptile and the conclusion of Ash and Sawyer's rivalry feels satisfying. My only big complain is that when Ash-Greninja appears, Sawyer and Sceptile's screentime is reduced significantly, and I think it should be more equally distributed when we are talking about the main rivalry during the series.

Also, controversial(?) opinion, but I think this battle was better than Ash vs Alain which I believe is the most popular one during XY.
 

Ragnarok4

Currently hidden in the mysterious Glimwood Tangle
Naruto vs Sceptile
 
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