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A Riveting Rivalry! (931)

K.N.

Well-Known Member
Cameron, Morrison, Tyson, Harrison, and Gary (yes him) are all more underwhelming to me then this match was.

I can understand Cameron and Morrison- now that I think about the latter, that match was pretty forced too. The unintended implication you took away from that match was that had Morrison actually put in the effort right from the get-go he would've won against Ash easily.

I don't see how this is a better match than Tyson or Gary though. Animation-wise there's obviously no contest, but I don't see how it's fair to make that comparison when both those matches are from over a decade ago.

The biggest problem with the Tyson match was that they knocked out Glalie and Sceptile immediately with no fanfare. They did that so they could put more effort into the other 5 matchups though. I think I prefer that to this match where everything felt spread thin.

I admit I give a lot of bonus points to the vs Gary match just because of all the backstory they gave it- it's a lot easier to get emotionally invested in the concept that Ash and Gary had been competing with each other since they were toddlers and that was their final confrontation. There's also the fact that he purposefully left Pikachu out of the match because he wanted to use his powerhouses- to me that showed how seriously Ash took that match, that he was willing to bench his closest partner just to have a better chance at winning.
 

Navin

MALDREAD
Mal's Review:

"Maarvelousss" * Slow claps in front of face*


Pros:

* "Zettai Akiramenai!" Based OP is based

* Fantastic animation

* Using the blocks of wood as distraction + log jamming the scabbard was excellent

* Loved the throwback music in the first part of Sceptile vs Smogonfrog

* That Frenzy plant exploding in the air followed by SatoSmogonfrog going Tarzan on the vines was ridiculously epic

* Nice to see the writers not forget to include the pain sharing mechanic

* Loved how the vocals transitioned into the XY&Z instrumental before the final blows

* Ash reached the finals FINALLY; now hopefully we can get an even better full battle in the Ashlain Bowl


Neutrals:

* Despite it not being a win and a bit of an attack spam fest, Dracula Otachi at least drew against a pseudo-legendary; that Salamence looked quite tough as well

* Too bad the Ash v Leprechaun rivalry suffered from some mediocre writing, otherwise that yellow screen monologue was quite meaningful


Cons:

* Hey Ash…you have an exhausted Pikachu. Send him to get some free damage on the Slurpuff, instead of letting your dragon weak to Fairy-types do all the work…

* Barney should have beaten Slurpuff. Back to back draws? Kek

* Goddamnit Leprechaun, just kiss Ash already


Thoughts:

* SatoSmogonfrog and Pikachu carried this full battle. Dracula Otachi did well in neutralizing the Salamence. I expected more from Barney. Lucha did his best in damaging the Slaking as much as possible for Smogonbird to finish it; the bird itself was rather disappointing, since Clawitzer wrecked it afterwards.



I would have liked to seen more switching throughout this entire full battle, but despite its flaws, it ultimately delivered. Setting aside my thoughts on Leprechaun as a character, this ‘rivalry’ at least had a satisfying dramatic conclusion. The animation, especially (Sato)Smogonfrog vs (Mega) Mega Sceptile was superb. Onwards to the Ashlain Bowl.


9/10
 

Mr. Reloaded

Cause a pirate is free
Goodra V Slurpuff is the reason Goodra shoulda got Sludge wave/bomb over Ice Beam. The latter never made any sense.

Hopefully this means Hawlucha, Noivern, and Goodra at the very least get solid wins individually against Alain.

And no Ash-Greninja V Mega Sceptile was no curbstomp, Ash-Greninja may not even be as strong as we thought, but god damn was that a beautiful fight.
 

Ofrea123

Well-Known Member
i honestly think ash greninja actually took down sceptile fairly easily. Even though at the end he collasped from exhaustion of using the form, the water shuriken probably knocked back the leaf storm and the cloud of dust didnt even cover greninja at the end ( probably means the impact wasnt close enough to damage him)
 

AuraChannelerChris

Easygoing Luxray.
Lol GGs SSS. Please never return after this.

Well, I was right. They just had to rush the fights so they had to use...2 draws to get to the main event (you're so big and reliable, Noivern!), even Sceptile ended up getting more screen time than Greninja.

I expected a kiss between those two kids...or more realistically, more tears from the faux-leprechaun, by the way.
 

Holy157

Well-Known Member
I actually rewatched the entire thing. What I found interesting was the fact that Ash never showed any worry, besides the pain sharing. The cut-ins of Ash and Sawyer were well implemented.

Alain's smug smile was just WTF. I would be worried after seeing Ash-Greninja in action at such a level. Maybe's he a Masochist.

Sawyer not longer needing his notebook shows his growth.

Also, did I mention how neat the cut-ins of Ash and Sawyer were instead of actually showing them?
 
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Red and Blue

Well-Known Member
Technically this isnt the first time we had two draws. It happened twice in the Ash vs. Morrison fight
 

Soniman

Break the Limit
Production values were way different back then. Ash v Gary was better than this battle, but I'd rank it on par or slightly better than Ash v Tyson.

Ignoring animation, Ash vs Gary is way more rushed and there were a gross amount of one/two shots. The final match up, Heracross vs Magmar, and the rivalry itself(and just the wonder of seeing Ash and Gary finally battle) are the only REALLY good highlights to me
 

Xenon Blue

No Hard Feelings
Ash vs Gary is better than this... this is probably on par with Tyson/Harrison. Only thing this battle has over every other league battle is that the animation makes other league animations look silly. Honestly, it was a poor written battle for the amount of supposed hype it got. Oh wait, my opinion does not matter because I'm criticizing the league. Sorry you can skip my post.
 

Nume-chan

Pokémon Breeder
Despite the lack of development at least Noivern didn't became a Torterra, still I hope that he gets a win against Alain to end on a somewhat good note.
 

Navin

MALDREAD
Ignoring animation, Ash vs Gary is way more rushed and there were a gross amount of one/two shots. The final match up, Heracross vs Magmar, and the rivalry itself(and just the wonder of seeing Ash and Gary finally battle) are the only REALLY good highlights to me

Those "REALLY good highlights" are enough to make it better than Ash v Leprechaun.
 

Xenon Blue

No Hard Feelings
Those "REALLY good highlights" are enough to make it better than Ash v Leprechaun.

Yeah, I mean some moments felt pretty lame, like Arcanine and Tauros doing next to nothing, but I actually perfer it this way, because it makes the battle feel "alive"
One player pulls ahead by a lot, then the other one comes back gradually only to see them fall behind again. This "treat all pokemon equally" creates a sense of predictability.
That's my personal opinion, you are free to disagree all you want.
 

knightwolf09

Well-Known Member
I can't help but feel that this battle overall has gotten some unfair judgement.

Pikachu vs Aegislash: That was brilliant. I don't know if anybody would have the idea to literally clog up King's Shield. Pikachu not only outsped it, but outsmarted it as well. Way to go Pikachu.

Noivern vs Salamence: Well at least he finally got a win off. Noivern actually did fairly well against a pokemon that would normally wreck him. Both did pretty well.

Goodra vs Slurpuff: Here's where I think this has unfair judgement. Making people think the battle was rushed or boring. For one Goodra couldn't do much against it. It's not fast so it can't move around much making it kinda stationary and it had a move that doesn't damage it and a one it's completely immune to. So Bide and Ice Beam were the best it can do. Even if Ash just switched to Pikachu, he was too tired and Slurpuff is tanky. Pikachu probably wouldn't have lasted long anyway, and even if Goodra defeated Slurpuff in turn Sceptile would beat it real quick because it outspeeds it and has Dragon Claw. So again, not much Ash could do in that situation

Ash-Greninja vs Mega Sceptile:......That was god like. That battle was epic as heck. Fast-paced, well animated, well strategized, and greatly shows how powerful those two are. Now I'm even more curious what's up with Greninja's shuriken. I don't think it's Torrent, cause those kind of abilities give the pokemon some kind of aura and he didn't have that, so it must be something else to it. But hands down, Greninja for Ash's best pokemon.

You were a worthy rival Sawyer, but you still have a bit to learn to catch up with Ash. And now it's time to move on to what could be the history maker of pokemon. I'm rooting for you Ash, and I got my eye on you writers. >:c Don't screw this up.
 

Danny L

Active Member
It's impossible to pull off in a realistic way now. They have to pull some bull**** for Ash to win the finals.

I don't see it happening anymore...

Alain's Charizard is really strong but that doesn't mean the rest of them are. His other Pokemon are probably relatively recently caught so they're not that much different than Ash's pokemon not named Greninja or even Pikachu
 

K.N.

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I mean some moments felt pretty lame, like Arcanine and Tauros doing next to nothing, but I actually perfer it this way, because it makes the battle feel "alive"
One player pulls ahead by a lot, then the other one comes back gradually only to see them fall behind again. This "treat all pokemon equally" creates a sense of predictability.
That's my personal opinion, you are free to disagree all you want.

Yeah, that's pretty much has always been my take. I've never minded that certain Pokemon need to be "fall guys" or that certain Pokemon Ash has just aren't as strong as the others. The very nature of how Pokemon matches are set up (both trainers have equal number of Pokemon) you need to have some guys lose more otherwise everything will be really predictable. Admittedly it's a bit different with Ash's Kalos Team since they've been trying to make them all out to be strong in their own way, but if that's what they wanted to do they could've had Ash switching his members in and out to play to each of their strengths rather than this match where they basically just traded KOs (or draw'd a bunch of times) and had Ash doing dumb decisions like leaving Talonflame in on a water type or sending out Goodra against a Fairy.

And just because one of Ash's members loses doesn't mean they're not key to victory- like how Grovyle made huge dents on Tyson's Metagross to allow Pikachu to take it out (or just about every moment of Ash vs Paul). That gives a better sense of Team Synergy instead of it feeling like a bunch of 1v1s.
 

UltimateNinja

Praying for the holy relics
Well there are actually 3 flaws in this battle. No switching out, Pikachu getting two wins and the two draws.

1.) No switching out was pretty dump for this battle, especially after Hawlucha spamming his attacks on Slaking without damaging it? Why not changing the pokemon instead of using Hawlucha for no reason? The same with T-Flame and Clawitzer.
2.) Pikachu getting two wins was absolutely stupid. We know that electric rat for almost twenty years and we know how strong it could be on the later part of each series. Now Hawlucha played the fall guy for what? Pikachu already have a good W/L ratio. Noivern would greatly benefit from two wins or one win and the draw with Salamence. Or even Goodra. Meh. I hope Pikachu plays the fall guy against Alain.
3.) Two draws? One draw is ok, but two in a row? Goodra should've won this thing after getting recalled. Gliscor returned for the Sinnoh league and fighted great against Paul's Drapion. The same for Charizard for the Johto league.

Besides that, that was a great battle. Animation was good, there are quite some strategic moments and the end was touching. Also both draws have something positive in it. It shows how even both Ash and Sawyer were here. Also finally a full and good 6vs6 battle since Ash vs Paul. And we still have the real final fight before us! Hope Ash vs Alain will be Ash vs Paul level.

8.5/10 for both episodes.
 
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