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A saga don't focused on the games's quest. What's your opinion?

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
Apologies but from what I'm getting is, you don't seem to understand why people care so much about battles in the first place. See people who do care about battles will understand to an extant why I consider the Unova 1v1 arc better than past tournaments. From this, you don't seem to truly understand how tournament story-lines commonly work or why many people choose which Pokemon Leagues are the best and are the worst or the reason why people care about battles. To disregard character development of tournament story-lines as the main factor is also to disregard battles of the Pokemon anime.

You say that people don't care about this stuff but from what I've seen of what people think of Pokemon battles in Serebii.net at least, that seems to be the exact opposite. According to a lot of people's opinions I've seen around Serebii.net, there is such thing as too much battles to the point it comes across as boring. Some people have mentioned that they get battle-fatigue to the point that they skim through some of the Gym Leader battles or through some of the Pokemon League battles. Why is this boring? For many it's boring character development. Battles are another way of character interactions in the anime. Some people forget that this isn't the games where you grind your Pokemon's level but this is an anime in the end where character development is also built on Pokemon battles. In fact one of the reasons why the Sinnoh and Kalos league are consider to be the greatest of the Pokemon Leagues commonly by the majority of fans is how it skims the Pokemon Leagues to just the battles that fans want to see, battles between established characters. As you said, people want to just see the battles but why are certain battles consider better or boring than others? Is it the tactics and action involved? Of course but you have to understand that every blow, every tactic, every dodge is a factor to consider in character development. These battles showcase character development and the popular ones are often between two already established characters with good reason. In fact that's the main reason why the Kalos League was so short was that it was only focusing on Ash's major rivals already established throughout the story. It's why Ash vs. Alain was so exciting, it was by some fans as not only the pinnacle of Ash's strength as a character, a display of how far he's come across as a character including his Pokemon but also his rival Alain who showed just how far his own training has got him. Whereas someone like Tobias just showed up and left in a few episodes. If you just want to see battles for the sake of battles and don't care how far Ash has come as a trainer, then you'll probably enjoy Tobias's battle for the most part but most people have a polarize view of Tobias. On one hand we get to see Ash's Sceptile get some character development through how he finished off Darkrai. On one other hand this battle is straight-up boring for some people as it's just a stupid plot-device that shows how much of a boring character Tobias is. Actually the thing is. This battle could've been really good character development for Tobias if this battle took place earlier in the series, establishing Tobias as a rival throughout the story but instead he was just a last-minute rival to give Ash an excuse to lose again. In fact it's through battling that we see Ash's own character come through. If you didn't notice, Ash's battle style is a mixture of offense, speed and playing to his Pokemon's strengths in other areas outside of typing. He always surprises characters around him for using a typing that isn't really supereffective against the opponent's typing, using unorthodox tactics. These battles are a display of Ash's character.

These are the reasons why people grow excited or bored of battles is because EVERY SINGLE BATTLE is character development at it's most exciting or at it's worst and most boring to the point that some people have battle fatigue. To ignore the character development that each battle carries is to ignore why people love, hate or grow bored of battles so much. It's why people often criticize these last-minute rivals and Ash losing at the last-minute as it's a roadblock to Ash's character but also at the same time highlight some of the greatest moments of these Pokemon Leagues like Ash vs. Gary, Paul or Alain which is a progression of his character. The reason why battles are second to character development is not necessarily because battles are weaker than the character development, it's because battling is a part of character development. That's why tournament story-lines seen in stuff like Dragon Ball Z or Naruto are so exciting because we get to see just how far their characters have come afar through battles and people who fail to understand this will fail to understand why people want to see or care about these battles in the first place.

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As for the second question, I have never seen the Best Wishes series when I started watching the XY series. I don't know if you know this but it was at the XY series point of time that Pokemon fans were yelling out, "POKEMON IS FINALLY GOOD!" to everyone, recommending that anyone who call themselves a Pokemon fan to watch the XY series. The XY series was a vast improvement over past anime series according to many fans however it was also a good refreshing start severing it's ties from past series almost completely to the point it felt like a refreshing reboot. To you it may seems like it can't be without the Best Wishes series but to someone like me and all the others who haven't watched Pokemon in a long time, all I saw was Ash stepping out of the plane with Alexia prepared for another new region to explore like any other series before it only this time it practically severed it's relationship with past regions with the exception of Prof. Oak and Hoenn I believe. I didn't need to know the backstory behind this trip. Alexia already explained it in a few quick words and that's it. When the series ended, it ended on a note that was loved by all fans. For new fans, we get to see Ash go back home and relax. It was a satisfying ending. For older fans, we see Ash going back home to meet with Delilah Ketchum, his mother, who was never mentioned at all in the XYZ series except as simply Ash's mother. It was because of this "isolation" I suppose that the XYZ series, the entire 6th gen of animation, felt like a refreshing reboot of Pokemon.
I already said I respected your opinion, so I'm not sure why you had to spend 3 paragraphs trying to get me to agree with you. I'm not going to.
 

shoz999

Back when Tigers used to smoke.
I already said I respected your opinion, so I'm not sure why you had to spend 3 paragraphs trying to get me to agree with you. I'm not going to.
Respecting my opinion or not has nothing to do with this. Sorry but I do not see the logic behind your statement. On a different note, to sum up my three paragraphs, I am saying that you have failed to understand why people like battles so much and it has to do with the fact that every battle is a character interaction, playing a huge part of character development. You do not have to agree. You only have to understand which you have clearly failed to previously when you thought people care more about battling than character development, as in you think it's separate and unrelated when in actuality the battles are an extension of character development. Apologies from how rude this looks, but I do not respect your previous opinion for the simple conclusion that it seems to lack understanding.
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
Respecting my opinion or not has nothing to do with this. Sorry but I do not see the logic behind your statement. On a different note, to sum up my three paragraphs, I am saying that you have failed to understand why people like battles so much and it has to do with the fact that every battle is a character interaction, playing a huge part of character development. You do not have to agree. You only have to understand which you have clearly failed to previously when you thought people care more about battling than character development, as in you think it's separate and unrelated when in actuality the battles are an extension of character development. Apologies from how rude this looks, but I do not respect your previous opinion for the simple conclusion that it seems to lack understanding.
I think you're the one who's failed to understand people who prefer battles because I'm one of them and I care about them because of the strategy and tactics, quick moves and how brilliantly and excitingly they can be animated sometimes, and much less about the character development that comes out of a battle. I even like wild battles for this reason, like between the wild Dewpider and wild Surskit in Dewpider Ascending! The strategies they each used, the moves and how they physically moved around and above each other, etc, waiting for the next strike, was what I cared about way more than character development. Obviously that battle led to character development as Surskit evolved and Dewpider got to claim the pond, but even if it hadn't ended that way, I would have still enjoyed it because I enjoy battles for the battles themselves, and as I described above the tactics they used and moves and how they visually looked as well were what I liked.

Everything I just told you is my opinion about what I myself prefer, which is in my brain, and therefore only I can know. I don't think you're in a position to be telling me why I like battles smh
 

shoz999

Back when Tigers used to smoke.
I think you're the one who's failed to understand people who prefer battles because I'm one of them and I care about them because of the strategy and tactics, quick moves and how brilliantly and excitingly they can be animated sometimes, and much less about the character development that comes out of a battle. I even like wild battles for this reason, like between the wild Dewpider and wild Surskit in Dewpider Ascending! The strategies they each used, the moves and how they physically moved around and above each other, etc, waiting for the next strike, was what I cared about way more than character development. Obviously that battle led to character development as Surskit evolved and Dewpider got to claim the pond, but even if it hadn't ended that way, I would have still enjoyed it because I enjoy battles for the battles themselves, and as I described above the tactics they used and moves and how they visually looked as well were what I liked.

Everything I just told you is my opinion about what I myself prefer, which is in my brain, and therefore only I can know. I don't think you're in a position to be telling me why I like battles smh
It appears I was wrong. You do seem to understand to an extant as you just described a huge aspect of character development. Also I don't think you seem to realize that what you largely described, the strategy, animation and tactics, is actually a huge and vital part of character development. I assume you did skipped one of my previous comments since you just used a really good example of how character development works in battles. Do you know what character development specifically means because I am starting to get the idea that you don't seem to realize that tactics and strategies are the details that give a more in-depth look or believability of a character.
 
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LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
It appears I was wrong. You do seem to understand to an extant as you just described a huge aspect of character development. Also I don't think you seem to realize that what you largely described, the strategy, animation and tactics, is actually a huge and vital part of character development. I assume you did skipped one of my previous comments since you just used a really good example of how character development works in battles. Do you know what character development specifically means because I am starting to get the idea that you don't seem to realize that tactics and strategies are the details that give a more in-depth look or believability of a character.
That may be the case, but as a result of my opinion (the strategy and tactics one), it means that I like 3v3 and 6v6 battles far more than 1v1 battles, and just because "character development" doesn't make this tournament arc the best one ever if it has these short battles.
 

shoz999

Back when Tigers used to smoke.
That may be the case, but as a result of my opinion (the strategy and tactics one), it means that I like 3v3 and 6v6 battles far more than 1v1 battles, and just because "character development" doesn't make this tournament arc the best one ever if it has these short battles.
Fair enough. Still I personally think the tournament in the middle of BW is one of the best. I liked how the anime crew took full advantage of the tropes of a tournament storyline to flesh out there characters and by extension certain Pokemon's personalities even further. Even the rival, Stephan, who I thought was forgettable when he made his debut made a far better impression here. His Sawk was hilariously funny. Also I liked how they reveal that Pawniard was a girl, how she did her flashy gesture was just funny. Also Joltik's defeat was hilarious even though it was extremely fast. Then there was the time Axew was facing a rolling Golurk. And the time when Larvesta used his stringshot to create a shield. I liked how it acted like a sun, by lighting it's horns on fire. So much Pokemon characterization goodness in that arc. Honestly, it doesn't just remind me of Pokemon Adventures. It literally reminds me of some tournament story-lines from other manga like DBZ, Fairy Tail, Naruto, One Piece. You know. I think I'm starting to get the reason why Best Wishes gets a lot of hate lol from how people describe what happens after Nimbasa. I think the Best Wishes builds up the hype tremendously early on and it all just crashes down after the Nimbasa gym which supposedly everone says is where it truly starts to fall apart. Am I right? Is that what happens?
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
Still I personally think the tournament in the middle of BW is one of the best.
I think you'll like the rest of BW a lot then because there are two more similar tournament arcs before the league, and the league itself is actually similar to these tournament arcs (which made me hate it lol) so you have at least 3 more similar tournament arcs left to go in the rest of BW if you liked this one. As much as I dislike BW I like that they did these as it overall made Iris and Cilan battle a lot more than previous or future companions.
 

shoz999

Back when Tigers used to smoke.
I think you'll like the rest of BW a lot then because there are two more similar tournament arcs before the league, and the league itself is actually similar to these tournament arcs (which made me hate it lol) so you have at least 3 more similar tournament arcs left to go in the rest of BW if you liked this one. As much as I dislike BW I like that they did these as it overall made Iris and Cilan battle a lot more than previous or future companions.
Don't know about that. There was a lot of strategy and planning involved in these matches. One of the reasons why it was so good is that a lot of the stuff that happened made a lot of sense in an unorthodox way. Honestly it's kind of like the Kalos Pokemon League but junior level. Best Wishes however, I heard the Pokemon League however is one of the worst though because it doesn't have this same strategy and planning. I guess I won't know till I see it.
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
Don't know about that. There was a lot of strategy and planning involved in these matches. One of the reasons why it was so good is that a lot of the stuff that happened made a lot of sense in an unorthodox way. Honestly it's kind of like the Kalos Pokemon League but junior level. Best Wishes however, I heard the Pokemon League however is one of the worst though because it doesn't have this same strategy and planning. I guess I won't know till I see it.
You'll at least like the remaining two pre-league tournament arcs that are similar to the one you just saw.
 

shoz999

Back when Tigers used to smoke.
You'll at least like the remaining two pre-league tournament arcs that are similar to the one you just saw.
I see. If it's anything like the XYZ series, it should be pretty good as the tournament arc I speak of feels like a predecessor for the greatness to come of XYZ's action scenes.
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
I see. If it's anything like the XYZ series, it should be pretty good as the tournament arc I speak of feels like a predecessor for the greatness to come of XYZ's action scenes.
Let me know when you see them! One is between the Mistralton and Icirrus Gyms and the other is between the Virbank and Humilau Gyms.
 

shoz999

Back when Tigers used to smoke.
Let me know when you see them! One is between the Mistralton and Icirrus Gyms and the other is between the Virbank and Humilau Gyms.
I'm not sure if I'll remember that request by the time I reach those episodes to be honest but if it's really good to leave a long-lasting impression, I'd probably post it in the episode discussion section.
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
I'm not sure if I'll remember that request by the time I reach those episodes to be honest but if it's really good to leave a long-lasting impression, I'd probably post it in the episode discussion section.
OKay sounds good but I also feel like anyway as you're watching BW you end up sometimes referencing recent episodes you've seen in just whatever thread you're in, like right now lol, so that may happen too and I may see it that way too.
 

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
Fair enough. Still I personally think the tournament in the middle of BW is one of the best. I liked how the anime crew took full advantage of the tropes of a tournament storyline to flesh out there characters and by extension certain Pokemon's personalities even further. Even the rival, Stephan, who I thought was forgettable when he made his debut made a far better impression here. His Sawk was hilariously funny. Also I liked how they reveal that Pawniard was a girl, how she did her flashy gesture was just funny. Also Joltik's defeat was hilarious even though it was extremely fast. Then there was the time Axew was facing a rolling Golurk. And the time when Larvesta used his stringshot to create a shield. I liked how it acted like a sun, by lighting it's horns on fire. So much Pokemon characterization goodness in that arc. Honestly, it doesn't just remind me of Pokemon Adventures. It literally reminds me of some tournament story-lines from other manga like DBZ, Fairy Tail, Naruto, One Piece. You know. I think I'm starting to get the reason why Best Wishes gets a lot of hate lol from how people describe what happens after Nimbasa. I think the Best Wishes builds up the hype tremendously early on and it all just crashes down after the Nimbasa gym which supposedly everone says is where it truly starts to fall apart. Am I right? Is that what happens?
If you liked stephan here, you'll LOVE the next tournament, he's heavily focused on there, and IMO, that tournament is the best part of BW
 

shoz999

Back when Tigers used to smoke.
If you liked stephan here, you'll LOVE the next tournament, he's heavily focused on there, and IMO, that tournament is the best part of BW
Personally I liked all the characters during the tournament storyline. My favorite however is undoubtedly Zorua playing tricks on the characters however over time you can tell she's getting more and more annoyed with Bianca to the point she just gives up in a subtle manner.
 

janejane6178

Kaleido Star FOREVER in my heart <3
a good series needs to have a good FOCUS.PLOT. ACTUAL UNAMBIGIOUS GOALS. things that SM lacks.
I hope the next generation will have a better plot line. One that actually sticks to the game's main goal (aka gyms/trials/etc)
 
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