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A Sandshrew's Storm! An Ice Hole Double Battle!! (1023)

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
"Lillie gets many things without doing anything for it?" What? Nearly everything Lillie has gotten she has had to work for. She had to work for her close bond with Shiron. She had to work to overcome her fear of touching Pokémon. She had to work through her traumatic memories that caused her fear in the first place.

Before Lillie stepped in to help, the Sandshrew's strategy against Tyranitar was to literally throw themselves at the dragon with hopes of doing damage—which isn't much of a strategy at all. Lillie came up with an actual strategy, and that strategy worked. Lillie may not be an experienced Trainer, but she is very knowledgeable, and she put that knowledge to use. She legitimately earned that Icium Z.

Fighting a Totem Pokémon isn't the only way to earn a Z-Crystal—in the games or in the anime. Lillie helped the Sandshrew defeat Tyranitar, and Sandslash felt that deserved a Z-Crystal.
Not to be contrarian, but...Lillie didn't really have to work through her traumatic memories. She got them back and all of a sudden could touch Pokemon again and everything was right and fine with the world. I really felt no struggle from that.

And I wouldn't call just adding some defense and throwing attacks at Tyranitar a strategy that's any different...
 
C'mon, guys. Icium Z is a thank gift, so Lillie deserved it.
Alolan Sandslash thanked Lillie for helping defeat Tyranitar and gave her the Icium Z. Yes, Alolan Sandshrew Lillie helped just evolved into Alolan Sandslash.

Alolan Sandslash stays and protects its home, so that's why it is not joining her. (Yeah I hoped she would catch it.. Oh well.)
 

Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
Okay I'm not going to talk about if Lillie got to where she is today by hard work or it's just giving to her. In my opinion she didn't really work her touching all Pokemon because it was more of a psychological than anything else. It kind of take away of Lillie going at her own pace then getting rid of it all together. I would have want Lillie being able to touch Pokemon again, but make it more as a slow pace then she can touch all of them now. Or I rather had Nihilego used it neurotoxicos the reason why she can't touch Pokemon.
You think overcoming psychological trauma isn't work? On the contrary, it's hard work. It seems like you are trivializing Lillie's trauma and her efforts to overcome it just because her trauma was psychologically based. Psychological trauma can be some of the hardest trauma to overcome. IMHO, Nihilego's toxins being the reason Lillie couldn't touch Pokémon wouldn't have been as satisfying.

Not to be contrarian, but...Lillie didn't really have to work through her traumatic memories. She got them back and all of a sudden could touch Pokemon again and everything was right and fine with the world. I really felt no struggle from that.
Lillie may not have had to work through her trauma the same way a trauma victim might have to in the real world, but she did have to come to terms with her memories.

Psychological trauma can be heavy material, especially for children, and I applaud the writers of the anime for touching upon the issue in a realistic way, even if it was sugarcoated. But the realism was there. Lillie initially couldn't remember the source of her fear, because she had blocked it from her memory. That's realistic. Encountering the source of her fear—Silvally—reawakened it and undid all the work she had done up until that point in overcoming her fear. That's also realistic. Remembering what really happened that day was the major step in overcoming her fear. That's also realistic.

And I wouldn't call just adding some defense and throwing attacks at Tyranitar a strategy that's any different...
The Sandshrew's strategy was all offense, no defense. Lillie used Shiron as a support Pokémon, using Aurora Veil to shield Shiron and Sandshrew from Tyranitar's attacks and Powder Snow to disorient Tyrantar. That is a strategy. It may not be a dramatic strategy, but it's still more of a strategy than offense, offense, offense.
 

FlygontheRavager

#1 Pokémon Anime Fan!
Not to be contrarian, but...Lillie didn't really have to work through her traumatic memories. She got them back and all of a sudden could touch Pokemon again and everything was right and fine with the world. I really felt no struggle from that.

And I wouldn't call just adding some defense and throwing attacks at Tyranitar a strategy that's any different...

As a fan of your awesome fanfics, I’m gonna have to disagree with you on this one. It’s true that Lillie getting her memories back was what ultimately allowed her to touch Pokémon again, and that she didn’t really have to work for that part of it, but that doesn’t mean she didn’t put any sort of work into breaking her trauma. Remember when Lillie got over her fear of touching Pikachu by battling with it against her butler and his Oricorio? That was all her. Her friends definitely pushed her most of the way, but it wasn’t like she was a complete damsel in distress; in fact, it’s beggining to look like she’s becoming more independent as time goes on, what with her battle against Tyranitar (which, for a person who barely battled before, showed tremendous growth in her character).
 

p96822

Evolve me please
You think overcoming psychological trauma isn't work? On the contrary, it's hard work. It seems like you are trivializing Lillie's trauma and her efforts to overcome it just because her trauma was psychologically based. Psychological trauma can be some of the hardest trauma to overcome. IMHO, Nihilego's toxins being the reason Lillie couldn't touch Pokémon wouldn't have been as satisfying.


Lillie may not have had to work through her trauma the same way a trauma victim might have to in the real world, but she did have to come to terms with her memories.

Psychological trauma can be heavy material, especially for children, and I applaud the writers of the anime for touching upon the issue in a realistic way, even if it was sugarcoated. But the realism was there. Lillie initially couldn't remember the source of her fear, because she had blocked it from her memory. That's realistic. Encountering the source of her fear—Silvally—reawakened it and undid all the work she had done up until that point in overcoming her fear. That's also realistic. Remembering what really happened that day was the major step in overcoming her fear. That's also realistic.


The Sandshrew's strategy was all offense, no defense. Lillie used Shiron as a support Pokémon, using Aurora Veil to shield Shiron and Sandshrew from Tyranitar's attacks and Powder Snow to disorient Tyrantar. That is a strategy. It may not be a dramatic strategy, but it's still more of a strategy than offense, offense, offense.

What did Lillie do to get over her fear. She just remember what happen and that it. In my opinion, even though she got though the psychological that doesn't mean she worked for it. I rather still see Lillie having some effect of her condition and her slowly overcoming it and it feel more rewarding to the viewer and the character that she overcome this. Also for the Necrotoxic I said could mess up with Lillie's nerve system of unable to touch Pokemon. I would have felt that would have been a better story line than Lillie remembering the events wrong.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
As a fan of your awesome fanfics, I’m gonna have to disagree with you on this one. It’s true that Lillie getting her memories back was what ultimately allowed her to touch Pokémon again, and that she didn’t really have to work for that part of it, but that doesn’t mean she didn’t put any sort of work into breaking her trauma. Remember when Lillie got over her fear of touching Pikachu by battling with it against her butler and his Oricorio? That was all her. Her friends definitely pushed her most of the way, but it wasn’t like she was a complete damsel in distress; in fact, it’s beggining to look like she’s becoming more independent as time goes on, what with her battle against Tyranitar (which, for a person who barely battled before, showed tremendous growth in her character).
I, personally, don't view it as her working to get over it for the simple fact that all that progress was erased when she saw Silvally. If the progress hadn't been erased for what I feel was a cheap drama move, then it would have mitigated the fact that "memory = trauma healed", which is really my biggest issue with Lillie's first half of development in the first place, given that she lacks any character agency.
 

Satomine Night

The Power of Z!
I, personally, don't view it as her working to get over it for the simple fact that all that progress was erased when she saw Silvally. If the progress hadn't been erased for what I feel was a cheap drama move, then it would have mitigated the fact that "memory = trauma healed", which is really my biggest issue with Lillie's first half of development in the first place, given that she lacks any character agency.
Lillie initially didn't remember what caused her fear of touching Pokémon. Unexpectedly encountering the source of that fear (Silvally) and having her fear reawakened, and all of her progress erased, is actually rather realistic, even if it seems overly dramatic. It's not a cheap drama move at all. Her memory of the event (Nihilego attacking her) was reawakened, and that reawakened her fear. Remember, Lillie is only about 10 years old, and she was probably no older than 6 when Nihilego attacked her. That's very traumatic for a child so young.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
Lillie initially didn't remember what caused her fear of touching Pokémon. Unexpectedly encountering the source of that fear (Silvally) and having her fear reawakened, and all of her progress erased, is actually rather realistic, even if it seems overly dramatic. It's not a cheap drama move at all. Her memory of the event (Nihilego attacking her) was reawakened, and that reawakened her fear. Remember, Lillie is only about 10 years old, and she was probably no older than 6 when Nihilego attacked her. That's very traumatic for a child so young.
Her memory of the event was a misunderstanding, though. That's one thing to remember. But my overall issue with that part of her character arc is that once she realizes it's a misunderstanding, 4 years of trauma are erased in five seconds and she's able to touch Pokemon again with no work on her part. You can't cite it's realistic when the very end result cuts the very corner that makes it realistic in the first place and veers it directly into unrealistic and handout territory (which, it's not like this particular series is a stranger to handouts for its characters).
 

FlygontheRavager

#1 Pokémon Anime Fan!
I, personally, don't view it as her working to get over it for the simple fact that all that progress was erased when she saw Silvally. If the progress hadn't been erased for what I feel was a cheap drama move, then it would have mitigated the fact that "memory = trauma healed", which is really my biggest issue with Lillie's first half of development in the first place, given that she lacks any character agency.

Just Lillie’s progress was erased doesn’t make it so that everything she had done to solve the issue up to that point never happened. I don’t want to insult you or anything, but that seems like a very petty reason to discount the steps she took to improve herself.

What you said about Lillie’s trauma ending after realizing that she misunderstood the situation being unrealistic, however, I can sort of agree with; perhaps it was a bit too quick for it to end just like that. But I don’t really think it’s that big of a problem, because 1) that chapter of her story would’ve probably gotten old if it had continued much further anyway, and 2) I was so happy for her that couldn’t didn’t even care.
 
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Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
I, personally, don't view it as her working to get over it for the simple fact that all that progress was erased when she saw Silvally. If the progress hadn't been erased for what I feel was a cheap drama move, then it would have mitigated the fact that "memory = trauma healed", which is really my biggest issue with Lillie's first half of development in the first place, given that she lacks any character agency.

What? Lillie has plenty of character agency. When Vulpix hatched, she could have decided to give up on it and let someone else raise Vulpix because she couldn't touch it. But she didn't. Instead she chose to make the best of it and get to know Vulpix better by walking home together. She chose to go to the shop to figure out what her Vulpix liked to eat, she went out of her way and chose to do her best to bond with her Vulpix regardless of her fears. When she had to take care of Pikachu she could have left Pikachu alone, just give it some food and let it play in the garden. Instead she chose to study Pikachu while it was playing and she chose to attempt to bond with it by battling Hobbs. In the Stoutland treasure hunt episode Lillie could have chosen to give up and not go for it, instead she persevered and in the end she managed to ride Stoutland.

When she met Silvally and remembered a fragment of what had happened to her, she could have chosen to run away from that in fear as it was such a terrifying memory. Instead she chose to confront those fears, she decided she wanted to remember everything, which triggered Nebby to help her remember. When her mother was kidnapped into Ultra Space, she could have chosen to leave it to Wicke and Burnet to fix like they suggested, but instead she decided on her own to leave the safety of her own home and go after her childhood nightmare Nihilego to save her mother. Gladion and the others decide to help her out, but she made that decision to go on her own.

In this episode Lillie could have decided not to help the Sandshrew, it wasn't her problem after all. But she decided she wanted to help them, so she did. That was her decision.

Throughout the series Lillie has been shown to be scared and terrified of things, but she confronts her fears and faces those challenges head-on. Sure, she gets encouragement to do so from her friends and from Kukui, and I'm sure that that encouragement helps her, but in the end she decides her fate over and over again.
 

AshxSatoshi

Ice Aurelia
Her memory of the event was a misunderstanding, though. That's one thing to remember. But my overall issue with that part of her character arc is that once she realizes it's a misunderstanding, 4 years of trauma are erased in five seconds and she's able to touch Pokemon again with no work on her part. You can't cite it's realistic when the very end result cuts the very corner that makes it realistic in the first place and veers it directly into unrealistic and handout territory (which, it's not like this particular series is a stranger to handouts for its characters).
Actually 4 years of trauma is not ereased. She’s still shown to be uncomfortable around Nihilego in the next episode. The only reason she went into the Ultra Space is because the love of her mother was greater than her fear. Also Lillie is a logical thinker. Why would she continue to fear all Pokémon due to basically an alien trying to kidnap her? She rightly understands that her fear was a misunderstanding and continues to move on with her life. She wasn’t afraid of Pokémon because of a simple misunderstanding either. She was afraid WHY she couldn’t remember. Naturally if a 4-5 year old gets attacked by a Pokémon, she’s going to throw her prejudice to all Pokémon. It’s not like their minds are developed enough to just place the blame on one person (Pokémon in this case) and since she could never address the fear due to Faba; she was just stuck and left to figure it out herself. And even before figuring out why she was afraid, she still tried to actively get over her fear with Pikachu, Stoutland and Snowball.


And I wouldn't call just adding some defense and throwing attacks at Tyranitar a strategy that's any different...
Versus the usual dodge and use signature attack strategy right? We barely see main characters use stat moves; so yes it’s at least a better strategy than what we’ve been getting lately.
 
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Leonhart

Imagineer
Blaze Master X said:
C'mon, guys. Icium Z is a thank gift, so Lillie deserved it.
Alolan Sandslash thanked Lillie for helping defeat Tyranitar and gave her the Icium Z. Yes, Alolan Sandshrew Lillie helped just evolved into Alolan Sandslash.

Alolan Sandslash stays and protects its home, so that's why it is not joining her. (Yeah I hoped she would catch it.. Oh well.)

I agree that it was a thank you gift, and as for Sandpan not joining Lilie, that seemed pretty predictable as well since we had no real indication that Sandpan would be in the SM cast (other than a vague merchandise listing).
 

pokedigijedi

Saiyan Jedi
sppf: "dude why aren't the companions developing as trainers?"

*lillie helps save sandshrew's home from danger, overcomes trauma and gets a z-crystal*

sppf: "dude wtf she didn't deserve a z-crystal, fam"

can we make up our minds on what we want please

Given the nature of the fan base, or rather fan bases in general, I am going to have to say no.

Its nice too see some, even if its minor, development from one of the main characters, even though as far as I am concerned its not gonna wind up being much of an improvement. Its going to take a lot for the companions to improve, minus Kiawe even then he's going to have to find some way to get a full team if he winds up entering the Pokemon League (he could borrow from his families farm but still.....).

Anyway back over to the episode, a shame no one caught Alolan Sandshrew but I largely gave up on the show's logic a long time ago, I just hope Lillie's Alolan Vilpix evovles someday and they don't keep it the way it is. You know, keeping it small and cute so they can sell more plushies, I hope they don't do that, its gotten beyond old and tiresome sacrificing development for marketing
 

AznKei

Dawn & Chloe by ddangbi
sppf: "dude why aren't the companions developing as trainers?"

*lillie helps save sandshrew's home from danger, overcomes trauma and gets a z-crystal*
Well, this episode is a good start, along few others before. I would like to see more of these in the future episodes though. So far in this series, they aren't enough.
 

TheWanderingMist

Paladin of the Snow Queen
Interesting episode. Wasn't expecting a BLEACH reference, if that's what Mallow's kick was meant to be (I suppose it could be a Kamen Rider reference given that Mashiro [the BLEACH character who does a kick] is based on Kamen Rider). Also, wonder if Shiron will eventually evolve or go the way of Pikachu. After all, Ash had that Thunder Stone for almost 10 years.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
sppf: "dude why aren't the companions developing as trainers?"

*lillie helps save sandshrew's home from danger, overcomes trauma and gets a z-crystal*

sppf: "dude wtf she didn't deserve a z-crystal, fam"

can we make up our minds on what we want please

I guess it's more a case of substance, it's often a flaw throughout the anime that the protagonists get handed boosts through plot rather than working for them (eg. Mallow getting two evolutions after barely doing anything with Bounsweet OR Steenee). The girls also seem to always keep getting pure one sided curbstomp battles as well, which negates the idea they're slowly working their way up. It wouldn't hurt to have them struggle and take the odd hit back to show a scale of improvement, or if they're really against having the cute girls get roughed up, just have them bulk up their abilities throughout something other than battling. I don't want another case like Serena, where after a series of never even losing a battle and only going up against jobbers they're still supposed to be on the same skill level Ash worked and struggled for at the end of the series.
 

Ryu Taylor

Unwavering beliefs. Richter Taylor is my name now.
The Rotom calculations gag wasn't missed.

Outside is too much for the eternally shirtless Kiawe, but inside the nearly just a scold cave isn't? Cartoon logic, huh?

No scenes of Pikachu's group? The Hell?

Lillie should've caught that Sandshrew.

After the Miyazaki-ified movie I sat through 80% of today, anything is godly in comparison, even an average score like this episode's. Miyazaki's noise really is a kiss of death...

This one was okay. An important thing happened, but other than that, this episode wasn't substantial.
 

LilligantLewis

Bonnie stan
I liked this episode a lot -- I liked that there was a split-up episode that did not involve Team Rocket. I liked that Sophocles's comment about Mount Lanakila, which I thought was just games promotion, ended up being relevant as Ash and Kiawe went that way. The one odd bit was the astronaut reveal, as I felt it would have fit better in the last episode, especially considering how empty the last episode was for most of it.

or woman; can't tell what gender it is

haha

It's kind of disappointing that Lillie didn't catch a Sandshrew, but she did get a Z-Crystal and an Ice Stone for Vulpix, so that mostly softens the blow. The only thing I'm worried for is whether or not Vulpix will actually USE that Ice Stone. It would make sense, since Vulpix is adorable and marketable, but I really want the writers to throw marketability into the wind this time around and let Vulpix evolve anyway.

I'm not sure if it's as much about marketability and more about the fact that the trainer has to make the decision that it wants the Pokémon to evolve when it's a stone evolution, which maybe the writers think will be seen by kids as a bit selfish, unlike evolutions that happen on their own, considering that they've never done a stone evolution for main cast. Even the King's Rock evolution was an accident. They've never shown a trainer deciding to evolve the Pokémon.

It was incredible of the writers to insert the past battle between Olivia and Ash as a battling reference to learn from.

yes, much better than making up flashbacks about Rockruff in the mud

The only thing that would have made this episode perfect is if Lillie caught Sandshrew.

nah I don't want totems on the main cast

she didnt find a Totem

this is false
 
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