Abortion, childcare and responsibility

[Pesky Persian]

So even if he's concluded that he'll do everything in his power to make it better for her, it's still okay for her to be selfish? Did you know that in Norway for example that they give a woman 2 years leave for her job and she comes back in the same exact position without her losing any pay or any perks if she has a child? (Norway's population is declining which may be a big part of this) So her job status is completely protected. Now say that she actually respects her husband and doesn't think he's an ******* because "lolomg he doesn't hav 2 giv berth he duznt undurstnd" (as if that's his fault and he chose to be a male) Now you bring up the health issues. Say the woman has a faulty heart. If she doesn't want to risk it..chances are any logical husband will agree. Say she gets to labor and the doctor says it's her or the baby...well that's her choice but the doctor also asks him for a reason. Chances are, if the husband has a choice between a child and his wife...he's going to choose his wife. So again, my point is that in a perfect situation where it's a husband and wife, no sicknesses, no outside forces involved. Just purely a relationship where a baby will be born happy and healthy, he should not be discarded as a moron just because the wife wants to drink and smoke and be selfish. It's really that simple. A relationship is 50/50 and this is a big decision. By the way, if the wife goes behind the husband's back and gets an abortion, he can sue. Just saying. So the law agrees with me as well.

Way to completely miss the point GhostAnime was trying to convey. He never said that men should be "discarded as morons," as you so quaintly put it. All he said was that it's something that needs to be discussed and, in my opinion, that's exactly right. In your scenario of a husband and wife, it's more than likely been discussed or will be discussed when the woman becomes pregnant. What's wrong with being responsible and discussing with your partner what to do if something unexpected arises? And where did drinking and smoking come into play? Seriously, did I miss a few posts or are you pulling this out of nowhere? I'm really confused. It's highly unlikely in a married situation that a woman is just going to get an abortion without the knowledge of her husband. I think the questions presented in the OP are something that is more likely to occur in non-committed/loosely committed relationships and relationships between young adults who are still trying to get on their feet in life. Serious, committed longtime partners have probably already discussed these things or would gladly welcome a child into their life.

And what does she have to go through? Doting from her family and friends? Oh not that! Oh man, not cramps! (Periods are the same way.) Morning sickness? That doesn't last the entire term.

Yes, because every pregnancy comes with doting family members. /sarcasm

Sure, family members and friends are likely to be excited and, if the family can afford it, baby showers are nice. However, "doting" seems to be exaggerating, especially when it comes to individualistic cultures. Also, period cramps can be debilitating if they're severe enough. And not all women get period cramps so they most likely wouldn't be accustomed to that. Morning sickness generally only lasts a while, yes, but sensitivity to certain smells that can trigger vomiting is common even past the first trimester. How about swollen feet? How about not getting any sleep because the baby is kicking you in the ribs? How about amniocentesis tests? Because everyone loves having a long needle stuck in their belly. Postpartum depression. And of course, birth, which we'll get to below...
(By the way, I'm not saying pregnancy is horrible. I think it's fascinating and amazing. However, it's not all rainbows and butterflies, and not every woman enjoys being pregnant.)

Also: not only are there so many drugs the woman goes on during labor, there are C-sections, and also the fact that even though a *****y woman will hold this against her husband, the pain gets forgotten as soon as she sees the baby's face (according to many accounts.) So all the "agony" she is going through is really really irrelevant.

No every woman chooses to use drugs. There is still debate about whether or not the use of certain drugs during labor can have a negative affect on the child. Also, drugs can only be used before a certain point. If she goes into labor unexpectedly or can't get to the hospital in time, drugs are not an option. And really, I find it kind of amusing that you were talking about someone being sexist before but then go on to post about how pregnancy is "Lol no big deal, suck it up." Priceless.

 

[TerraWolf]

Abortion is just...... Abortion. It seems human, just like death. And as Wayne says...


We in the belly of the beast
And she thinking 'bout abortion

 

[manifesto]

Just as a disclaimer: My views only reflect healthy relationships. Not rape cases, marital rapes, women being abandoned by their partners after it's found that she's pregnant, or any other relationship issue. Again, my arguments only reflect healthy relationships in which the man and the woman both consented to sex and fully accept that a child can be conceived from that action. Any other situation outside of that I am not bringing up because it's irrelevant to what I'm saying.

Sigh, notice how I didn't even bring up the discussion part. It should be discussed before intercourse always and that should be a freaking given. But the only point I was arguing is that when it comes to the decision after mistakes were made (if they were to be considered mistakes,) it should be a joint decision on whether or not to keep it as it's both of their responsibility, not just the woman's. Disregarding a man's wants and wishes (in a healthy relationship, not a rape case, abandonment etc.) because he doesn't have to carry it is selfish. It may be her body but it's not only her child.

You're right in saying that not all families are the same, but in many (read: not all but most) cases the man is at the beck and call of his wife while she's pregnant on top of working to be able to afford and support a wife and child(ren) unless he's a sadistic jackass in which case again, that's a form of abuse which is in the grey area of this topic. So really, the most stress and difficulty is placed on the woman? I think not. She may have physical stress, but he's got mental stress of not being home all the time and wondering if the child and/or she is okay and there are no complications. He has the wonderful feeling of being powerless in the situation of her keeping it. Both pretty equal in my book in terms of crappy feelings.

Also, you can make the same arguments about the 'suffering' of pregnancy with the pain that comes with a lifetime of blue-collar work (like carpentry) what with accidental death, hernias, arthritis, herniated discs in the spine, etc. So really, 9 months of inconvenience is really little to say especially since a woman only does it on average 2-3 times in her life in the U.S. So I still strongly disagree with the idea that OMG IT'S SO MUCH SUFFERING. All mammals do it and get on with their lives. Also, in no way am I saying that it's nothing. I'm saying that you are all making it much, much bigger than it actually is. Since after those 9 months, it's over. The woman can either have her bundle of joy and if she doesn't see it that way she can get rid of it. Either way she's happy. Point: pregnancy is an inconvenience, yes. Not a horrible suffering that should be avoided at all costs. A pregnant woman is allowed to complain, believe me. As being the first of six children, I heard plenty from my mom while she was pregnant and that's fine. If something's bothering you, wouldn't you complain? But in the grand scheme of one's entire life, a woman has on average 2-3 children so it happens twice, that's 18-27 months out of an 80+ year life cycle. Wanna talk periods and how they suck too? Well a woman hits menopause (which sucks at the time it happens, yes) and bam, once that's done...it's all gone. No more pregnancy, no more periods...it's like magic. So stop making it like a pregnancy is a lifetime of suffering and anguish. Because it's not. It's annoying and a frustrating time because of all the changes going on in the woman's body, but that doesn't mean that it's the worst feeling in the history of the world. You bring up how drugs can't be used after certain points. I am well aware of that. But I'm using a perfect/ideal situation as my example of how it's not all bad/crazy suffering because everyone seems to have a negative idea of what pregnancy is. There are a lot of variables in any given situation and it's really really impractical to bring them all up also.

In a perfect situation, of course, which is what I am talking about. Not but she was raped and had the kid and now she has post-partem depression and now she's suicidal but she also has hemmorhoids and laser bears eating at her feet. (Purposely ridiculous for effect.) Because we can go that way with her going through with the abortion too with the whole guilt that can potentially come after it which can also potentially lead to suicide/depression, not to mention the doctor can botch it and destroy her uterus which can make it so she can't have any children when she's ready to. So really, do you want this to go in circles? Both options have negative side effects, but that's just the risk.

An unplanned child is a responsibility and the risk of having sex. But it is both partners' faults which means it's both partners' decision as to what they do with it. No one side's argument holds more ground than the other. It's just how it is. They need to come to an agreement as to what should be done with this given situation. Like say, they both want to get rid of it, then she will. Or say the husband just leaves it up to his wife...then that's still a joint agreement because he's consenting to whatever she wants. That's what I mean by a joint decision. Not: woman gets raped by husband, doesn't want child but she shouldn't get rid of it if she doesn't want it because husband still wants it. At that point, it's an unhealthy relationship and the ball is in her court to put into play.


As a whole my beliefs come down to this on the terms of abortion: Personally, since I am not abusive or crazy and I plan to use birth control unless a child is planned, I am pro-life within my specific relationship.

When it comes to other people, I don't give a rat's behind what they do. The choice for abortions should exist for all those who want to have them since it doesn't affect me one way or another.

But saying that it's all a woman's choice is asinine and not right since it's not only her responsibility but his, as well. That is all I am saying. (THIS IS IF AND ONLY IF THE MAN WHO GOT HER PREGNANT -i.e. her husband- IS STILL INVOLVED DIRECTLY IN THE RELATIONSHIP AND THAT [potential] CHILD'S LIFE. IT IS 100% IN THE WOMAN'S HANDS IF SHE IS DUMPED, ABANDONED OR IN THE SITUATION OF A SPONTANEOUS RAPE.)


Then again, this is the Internet, so no matter how objective I try to be, this is going to cause a flame war. So whatever. I'll read whatever response I get to this but I'm not responding. I've stated my position and that's final.

 

[Pesky Persian]

But the only point I was arguing is that when it comes to the decision after mistakes were made (if they were to be considered mistakes,) it should be a joint decision on whether or not to keep it as it's both of their responsibility, not just the woman's. Disregarding a man's wants and wishes (in a healthy relationship, not a rape case, abandonment etc.) because he doesn't have to carry it is selfish. It may be her body but it's not only her child.

I don’t think anyone would say that it’s only her decision if it’s a healthy, long-term relationship. Legally? Yes, it is her decision. But realistically, in the type of relationship you’re talking about, the discussion of abortion is more often than not a joint decision. I mean, really, how many cases of a married woman wanting to get an abortion when her husband wants to keep it are there? I’m going to guess not that many.

You're right in saying that not all families are the same, but in many (read: not all but most) cases the man is at the beck and call of his wife while she's pregnant on top of working to be able to afford and support a wife and child(ren) unless he's a sadistic jackass in which case again, that's a form of abuse which is in the grey area of this topic. So really, the most stress and difficulty is placed on the woman? I think not. She may have physical stress, but he's got mental stress of not being home all the time and wondering if the child and/or she is okay and there are no complications. He has the wonderful feeling of being powerless in the situation of her keeping it. Both pretty equal in my book in terms of crappy feelings.

First of all, many women work while they’re pregnant. I’d even venture a guess that most women work while pregnant until they cannot any longer and/or are put on bed rest. They both have mental stress, by the way. There are plenty of psychological stresses that come with being pregnant that affect both parents. No one ever said the man doesn’t have stress, but it’s more that the physical and mental strain is a little more in women.

Also, you can make the same arguments about the 'suffering' of pregnancy with the pain that comes with a lifetime of blue-collar work (like carpentry) what with accidental death, hernias, arthritis, herniated discs in the spine, etc. So really, 9 months of inconvenience is really little to say especially since a woman only does it on average 2-3 times in her life in the U.S. So I still strongly disagree with the idea that OMG IT'S SO MUCH SUFFERING.

Because only men have blue-collar jobs or jobs that can cause any of those health conditions listed, right? And no one said pregnancy is some horrible suffering, just that it can be painful and uncomfortable and not something a woman (assuming she is the sole decision holder; i.e. the man does not want to be involved in the decision) should have to go through if she does not want to.

Wanna talk periods and how they suck too? Well a woman hits menopause (which sucks at the time it happens, yes) and bam, once that's done...it's all gone. No more pregnancy, no more periods...it's like magic.

Menopause isn’t exactly a magic release from all the frustrations of being a woman. In fact, it causes a lot of emotional and psychological problems in many women. I’m actually writing a paper for my Human Development course on the subject of menopause if you’d like me to outline a lot of the psychological aspects associated with it.

In a perfect situation, of course, which is what I am talking about. Not but she was raped and had the kid and now she has post-partem depression and now she's suicidal but she also has hemmorhoids and laser bears eating at her feet. (Purposely ridiculous for effect.) Because we can go that way with her going through with the abortion too with the whole guilt that can potentially come after it which can also potentially lead to suicide/depression, not to mention the doctor can botch it and destroy her uterus which can make it so she can't have any children when she's ready to. So really, do you want this to go in circles? Both options have negative side effects, but that's just the risk.

In your “perfect situation” of a husband/wife relationship, the subject of this debate (whether or not the male is responsible for supporting the child if the female decides not to abort) is not likely to happen, which is what I was trying to say in my last post. Yes, abortion can be traumatic for some women, but she still has the right to decide if she wants to go through with that option. Also, postpartum depression doesn’t only happen in rape victims.

An unplanned child is a responsibility and the risk of having sex. But it is both partners' faults which means it's both partners' decision as to what they do with it.

And I would agree with that, but I think you missed the point of the OP. In your husband/wife scenario (assuming she wasn’t raped by her husband, which, sadly, does happen to some women), this argument is not likely to come up.

 

[GhostAnime]

My views only reflect healthy relationships.

What healthy relationship doesn't have honest discussions?

 

[Aenea]

@ manifesto

I agree with alot of your points, but I still can't condone forcing a woman to carry to term. You say it should be 50/50 and it should, definitely, but it's the woman's body so she'll always have that 51 to a man's 49. If you were going to force her it would be (warning: exaggerated comparison) like tieing an iron ball that grows each month, for 9 months to a man's foot. This one fact overides all the other ones that are viable reasons for the man having perfectly equal control. The world unfortunately, is not fair.

I wish you wouldn't stop posting here tho :<

 

[Malanu]

In advance I would like to apologize for how preachy this is, but the highlighted line, set me into needing to set things straight from a fathers perspective!

So even if he's concluded that he'll do everything in his power to make it better for her, it's still okay for her to be selfish? Did you know that in Norway for example that they give a woman 2 years leave for her job and she comes back in the same exact position without her losing any pay or any perks if she has a child? (Norway's population is declining which may be a big part of this) So her job status is completely protected. Now say that she actually respects her husband and doesn't think he's an ******* because "lolomg he doesn't hav 2 giv berth he duznt undurstnd" (as if that's his fault and he chose to be a male) Now you bring up the health issues. Say the woman has a faulty heart. If she doesn't want to risk it..chances are any logical husband will agree. Say she gets to labor and the doctor says it's her or the baby...well that's her choice but the doctor also asks him for a reason. Chances are, if the husband has a choice between a child and his wife...he's going to choose his wife. So again, my point is that in a perfect situation where it's a husband and wife, no sicknesses, no outside forces involved. Just purely a relationship where a baby will be born happy and healthy, he should not be discarded as a moron just because the wife wants to drink and smoke and be selfish. It's really that simple. A relationship is 50/50 and this is a big decision. By the way, if the wife goes behind the husband's back and gets an abortion, he can sue. Just saying. So the law agrees with me as well.

And what does she have to go through? Doting from her family and friends? Oh not that! Oh man, not cramps! (Periods are the same way.) Morning sickness? That doesn't last the entire term.

Also: not only are there so many drugs the woman goes on during labor, there are C-sections, and also the fact that even though a *****y woman will hold this against her husband, the pain gets forgotten as soon as she sees the baby's face (according to many accounts.) So all the "agony" she is going through is really really irrelevant.

Manifesto... You have no idea what it is like to be married do you? Nor have you been with a pregnant woman for the full nine months? Also Norway isn't the rest of the world, every country has different levels of post natal care so (giving profs to Norway BTW!!!) the best example doesn't help those not living there.

Your scenarios also don't remove the fact that is is the mother who has to carry the child and therefore has the choice of having an abortion, Husband or not I have no right to make my wife have a baby if she doesn't want one. I do however have the right to a divorce so I can marry a woman who will give me a child if I must. The only reason she needs is she doesn't want to give birth.

See in the "perfect" scenario you want to give, children would have been discussed before the rings went on the fingers, and then discussed more before getting pregnant.

My wife was perfectly healthy(ish) when she got pregnant with our son, she had... complications. She ended up bed rested for 8 months. Two months into that period our finances were in some bad straits, We had to decide what we wanted to do. She chose to continue to try to have our child, I was happy, I would have supported her if she chose differently because she's my wife, and the first job of a good husband is to support his wife.

Nothing in life is as logically cut and dry as you make it out to be. If it were, my son wouldn't have Autism. Because since two healthy parents had one healthy baby they should have had a second.

My wife had the drugs during pregnancy, do you know that they don't give the good drugs during delivery because they "might" effect the baby since it still shares the mothers systems? Epidurals are only so effective and fluctuate according to how close to the nerves the nurse gets. C-sections have their own list of suck that come with them, but we didn't have one so I can't give details. Having a baby is not easy, it wreaks havoc on the mothers body, and takes months to fully recover. You really need to be there for one to fully understand how off the mark you sound. I've been there twice, I even got to finish the delivery of my son when the docs got his head clear. Honestly try passing something the size of a 8-12 pound bowling ball out your butt, see what it does to your system! Honestly, men need to worship and praise their women for willingly giving them a baby... I'd have killed the delivery team if I was going through that much trauma! My wife was a champ.

Now on to the aftermath. What does the mother have to look forward to after the baby? Is the family going to be doting or are they 1500 miles a way?

Is she going to have to get up every :45-1:00 every night to change diapers, feed, or quite a colicky baby for several months or is her husband going to share the responsibility?

Are her hormones going to return to normal or are they going to swing wildly and play marry marry Hob with her emotions? Believe me it's a wild ride, one minute loving you for just walking in the room to breaking down and crying rivers doubting her ability to be a good mom! They don't make drugs good enough to help this!

My wife also suffered A LOT of pain because our daughter's "perfect" birth left her needing stitches in her vjay jay (we had pretty big babies) which left her in quite a lot of pain and needing me to get down on all fours so she could use me as a support so she could stand up. I tried lifting her, but the attempts hurt her more than trying to stand on her own.

So until you have experienced Natural child birth first hand, you can't possibly imagine what its like. To be honest, unless you give birth you have only an inkling what it is like. Put on her Stilettos and walk a few klicks then talk to us. Honestly why women don't castrate us I'll never understand!

Since after those 9 months, it's over.

This is the biggest clue you know nothing of child birth and rearing. Once a child is born, it is a constant worry to the parent. It is the most time consuming, hair pulling job, you'll get no credit for and barely a thank you unless the child becomes a parent themselves!

 

[CSolarstorm]

Also, you can make the same arguments about the 'suffering' of pregnancy with the pain that comes with a lifetime of blue-collar work (like carpentry) what with accidental death, hernias, arthritis, herniated discs in the spine, etc. So really, 9 months of inconvenience is really little to say especially since a woman only does it on average 2-3 times in her life in the U.S. So I still strongly disagree with the idea that OMG IT'S SO MUCH SUFFERING. All mammals do it and get on with their lives. Also, in no way am I saying that it's nothing. I'm saying that you are all making it much, much bigger than it actually is. Since after those 9 months, it's over.

Go get pregnant then! Dude, I've had discs removed from my spine, and I've passed kidney stones. (And I've had hernias too, come to think of it...) Generally people who pass kidney stones look worse, moan louder, and act like they're going to faint because of the pain. Now realize that a newborn baby is like a thousand times bigger than a kidney stone. It's excruciating and very difficult. I know you specified that it isn't nothing, but it was quite inappropriate to mock 'OMG IT'S SO MUCH SUFFERING'.

 

[Aenea]

Go get pregnant then! Dude, I've had discs removed from my spine, and I've passed kidney stones. (And I've had hernias too, come to think of it...) Generally people who pass kidney stones look worse, moan louder, and act like they're going to faint because of the pain. Now realize that a newborn baby is like a thousand times bigger than a kidney stone. It's excruciating and very difficult. I know you specified that it isn't nothing, but it was quite inappropriate to mock 'OMG IT'S SO MUCH SUFFERING'.

Kidney stones come out of your pee hole... Not out of a vagina...

 

[Pesky Persian]

Kidney stones come out of your pee hole... Not out of a vagina...

I'm pretty sure SunnyC is aware of that. Either way, anyone who has ever had a kidney stone knows it still hurts like a bitch. Believe me, it's excruciating. It's still something relatively large coming out of a relatively small hole.

 

[Aenea]

I'm pretty sure SunnyC is aware of that. Either way, anyone who has ever had a kidney stone knows it still hurts like a bitch. Believe me, it's excruciating. It's still something relatively large coming out of a relatively small hole.

Well the point I was making was that I don't think it's a fair comparison, I'm sure both hurt, but one isn't made to stretch and one is.

 

[Pesky Persian]

Well the point I was making was that I don't think it's a fair comparison, I'm sure both hurt, but one isn't made to stretch and one is.

Yes, the vagina is made to stretch, but it doesn't make it any less painful.

 

[Malanu]

Isn't it funny Pesky, people who never experienced something telling others how it is? I think the Kidney stone example doesn't do justice to passing a watermelon out of a space usually designed to handle a carrot.

 

[Lesquid]

Because the child isn't her's alone to deal with. Simple as that. As long as he is in the picture, it's Their child. Not just her child or his child. She may bear it but he still has to do his duty to it. Once the child is born, assuming this is a healthy relationship between the man and the woman, daddy still has to provide for it (let's say the woman doesn't work) and daddy's still gotta be there for the child. It's his responsibility just as much as hers.

The problem with this though, is that a rapist could force a woman to carry his child just because he wants a child.

 

[CSolarstorm]

Kidney stones come out of your pee hole... Not out of a vagina...

Lol, yes, I know that. It is a common comparison though: something big coming through a little hole, just like Pesky Persian said. Plus it goes beyond stretching sometimes, there can also be tearing involved. Tearing of sensitive flesh you don't want to be torn. The kidney stone example doesn't really do it justice I know, but I don't know of a better example that really does.

 

[Malanu]

The problem with this though, is that a rapist could force a woman to carry his child just because he wants a child.

However this topic isn't about that. It's about consensual sex that results in an non consensual child.

 

[Butterfly]

However this topic isn't about that. It's about consensual sex that results in an non consensual child.

nope, this topic is actually about abortions. B|

this is an interesting point though, i haven't thought a lot about what an involved man might have to say. generally i say it's up to the woman, not the religion/etc., as in it's her body let her do what she wants to it. however, i don't think she should do it without a father's consent. as said previously, it would depend on the situation, but if the father is staying with her, he should have some say in the decision. in the end though, as ghostanime pointed out, a man has a much less painful and much more pleasant contribution to a child being born, and since the woman has to deal with the pain, i feel like it should be her choice if she wants to go through it or not. of course, realistically, it wouldn't make a lot o sense for the man alone to want the abortion, since there are other ways to be rid of a child after birth (orphanages, etc). not saying those are great choices, but they are choices. it seems wrong to me, though, for a man to force a woman to go through a lot of unwanted pain solely because he wants the child. of course, if they're a couple, having a kid, you'd think they should be able to work out and agree on what they want, so it's kind of a moot point anyway.

 

[Malanu]

Abortion is a choice in the OP yes, but the topic was geared towards why should a father be responsible for the child if HE didn't want it.

Psych major? You will be one to watch on Misc/Debate. Looking forward to your arguments.