Pesky Persian
Caffeine Queen
The point is, no one has to get an abortion. It's a choice and something that should be seriously thought about before a decision is made.
Rape is not a choice. Comparing the two is just ignorant, JB. C'mon.
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Abortion, childcare and responsibility
- Thread starter Aenea
- Start date
The point is, no one has to get an abortion. It's a choice and something that should be seriously thought about before a decision is made.
Rape is not a choice. Comparing the two is just ignorant, JB. C'mon.
Plan B itself is pretty horrible and painful. Nowhere near as excruciating and painful as abortion (No, I have not had one, but I belong to a large support group of mothers and have lots of stories on both ends of the spectrum).
The thing is, getting a rape kit itself takes time, getting an investigation and while you're scared out of your mind, wondering if he'll find you again and do something to you Plan B and any logical thinking will be in the back of your mind until you miss your period and no longer have that 72 hour window to act upon.
Jb
Tsun in the streets
Fair, I got way off track comparing the two, my bad. I'm not saying you have to get an aboriton, but this is something i'm sure woman think about from time to time. Some at my school already said if they ever got pregnant by rape they would get it aborted. Sure that can change with the thought of motherhood but still.
Hey gang we are getting a bit off topic. The topic is about whether a unwed mother has the right to "force" a father into child support, child rearing, and the like, even if he didn't want said baby. It's not about the morality of abortion, which is a hot button topic.
My stance is quite clear on this topic I think.
My stance is quite clear on this topic I think.
TheFightingPikachu
Smashing!
Which laws prohibit abortions after certain features develop? Would you show me?
While I believe much of what you've said is accurate (especially that first sentence), I'm not quite sure the point jb08045 was making need be only a comparison, strictly speaking. Some people have been saying that if the man doesn't want the baby (even if the woman does), she "should just get an abortion," and shouldn't expect any help from him. A similar criticism could be argued regarding rape victims, who could "just get help from a doctor immediately." While they may not desire to do so, their choice is still there.
Not that such an argument is fully valid, yet against the expressed belief that the woman "should just get an abortion" if the man doesn't want to help, the argument about immediate help in case of rape is an excellent counterargument. If one would expect a woman to violate her moral conscience and get an abortion for the choice of someone else, then ought not one expect her to get help when she has been illegally victimized?
Yeah, I kinda think my stance is quite clear as well, but I don't mind repeating it. Despite my pro-life views, with a belief that abortion is homicide (unjustifiable unless...justified), I can see that pro-choice means pro-choice. A man can't make a woman have an abortion, therefore, he must know beforehand what she's going to do in case of conception.
Interesting. I don't doubt it but no my experience there have been no side effects.
Quite a bit of blind ignorance recently too.
Anyways, back on topic I guess since this isn't really a pro life vs pro choice thread but rather a thread regarding the responsibility of both parties. My views as malanu and TFP have already been stated to a degree so I'll leave this with a question. Given the sway in favor of the mother, is she entitled to more support if joint but separate custody is agree'd upon?
Ched if support is anything like it is in a divorce, the amount of support a parent is entitled to is based on hours/days in their possession. So a mom who has her child 4 days a week is entitled less than a mom who has the child 7 days a week. Joint custody give both parents the ability to make decisions and share the cost of raising.
I think a guy has a right to know whether or not he knocked up the girl he shagged last week, but as for rape it's a really traumatic issue. I personally think that a kid conceived by rape deserves life because it honestly weren't their fault, but it's obviously gonna be an emotional struggle for the mother because she got something forced on her that she didn't want.
Pesky Persian
Caffeine Queen
@TheFightingPikachu:
I really don't see the two as comparable. Choosing to do something that could be traumatic is not the same as being a victim of something that is always traumatic. I think a man (or anyone) pushing a woman to get an abortion when she doesn't want one is wrong. I think everyone would agree on that. I don't think anyone has said a woman should just get an abortion if the man doesn't want a baby. It has been more about whether or not the father should be forced to help support a child he does not want. Furthermore, dealing with the consequences of having sex willingly is very different from trying to figure out how to deal with being a victim. It is not always possible for a woman who has been raped to get help depending on how they are psychologically afterward. To just assume that she should just deal with possibly being pregnant when she has just gone through a horrifying ordeal is a very ignorant way of thinking, in my opinion. So I stand by what I said. The two are completely different.
I really don't see the two as comparable. Choosing to do something that could be traumatic is not the same as being a victim of something that is always traumatic. I think a man (or anyone) pushing a woman to get an abortion when she doesn't want one is wrong. I think everyone would agree on that. I don't think anyone has said a woman should just get an abortion if the man doesn't want a baby. It has been more about whether or not the father should be forced to help support a child he does not want. Furthermore, dealing with the consequences of having sex willingly is very different from trying to figure out how to deal with being a victim. It is not always possible for a woman who has been raped to get help depending on how they are psychologically afterward. To just assume that she should just deal with possibly being pregnant when she has just gone through a horrifying ordeal is a very ignorant way of thinking, in my opinion. So I stand by what I said. The two are completely different.
I have always said before that if a mother has the right to terminate responsibility through abortion, then the father should be able to terminate his responsibility through child support. However, I do not think it may be fully fair because most women do not get abortions simply because they do not want responsibility i.e. using it as birth control It's a pretty excruciating process and can leave life time effects on the body.
However, I think that most fathers already do have an option by signing off all their rights to the child.
However, I think that most fathers already do have an option by signing off all their rights to the child.
GhostAnime
Searching for her...
You cannot possibly compare abortion to being able to terminate child support. The keyword is italicized.
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Yep, because the baby is only hers and consists only of her DNA. He won't care if she aborts it because it's her body and he likes being treated as less than human because he cannot give birth. He just doesn't understand. Well to that, I can say with both middle fingers raised high and up into the sky "****. That. Noise." The fact that he could have had a son or daughter to love and raise but that was taken away from him by a woman because it's her choice~~~~ is really fair. Yep. Go equal rights and mutual respect. If the father is still in the picture it should be a mutual choice came up with after much deliberation and the woman should put just as much weight on his opinion as hers. If they disagree someone's going to give at some point and once that happens, if they love one another then they'll get over it.
Just to be clear: I personally, am not a fan of abortion itself. But I feel as if the choice should be availiable to people who agree with it. So personally, I am pro-life. Politically I am Pro-choice. Generally, I don't talk about it ever. But opinions like that reeeeaaalllyyy piss me off.
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GhostAnime
Searching for her...
It just goes to show you that you better have these sort of discussions before you go sticking it in anybody. Sounds plenty fair enough to me.manifesto said:
I mean, a lot of things are "unfair" but legal. I can legally slam the door on a homeless person asking for a dime.
You miss my point. I don't care if they both agree. In fact, they can go do whatever they want if they both agree and consent. But a woman putting more weight on her decision than the man (assuming he's still in the picture i.e. this isn't a rape situation) is just unfair, sexist, disrespectful and ridiculous. I'm sorry.
GhostAnime
Searching for her...
How is it sexist and disrespectful? She is the one that has to bear the child for 9 months. The only possible way I can see this situation happen is if both people did not discuss any terms prior to sexual contact.. which isn't exactly the fault of the woman.
If the guy truly wants a child, he should be responsible in who he "procreates" with.
If the guy truly wants a child, he should be responsible in who he "procreates" with.
Because the child isn't her's alone to deal with. Simple as that. As long as he is in the picture, it's Their child. Not just her child or his child. She may bear it but he still has to do his duty to it. Once the child is born, assuming this is a healthy relationship between the man and the woman, daddy still has to provide for it (let's say the woman doesn't work) and daddy's still gotta be there for the child. It's his responsibility just as much as hers.
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GhostAnime
Searching for her...
The child is unfortunately in her body; even if he contributed to putting it there, in my eyes, it will never amount to what a woman has to go through to bear it. It's not something you easily sway off as nothing.
If the woman feels like she does not want it and that it will affect her health, job status, or finances, then she should do what's best for her. I see no problem with this. Simply be responsible and talk about it. Is that so hard?
If the woman feels like she does not want it and that it will affect her health, job status, or finances, then she should do what's best for her. I see no problem with this. Simply be responsible and talk about it. Is that so hard?
So even if he's concluded that he'll do everything in his power to make it better for her, it's still okay for her to be selfish? Did you know that in Norway for example that they give a woman 2 years leave for her job and she comes back in the same exact position without her losing any pay or any perks if she has a child? (Norway's population is declining which may be a big part of this) So her job status is completely protected. Now say that she actually respects her husband and doesn't think he's an ******* because "lolomg he doesn't hav 2 giv berth he duznt undurstnd" (as if that's his fault and he chose to be a male) Now you bring up the health issues. Say the woman has a faulty heart. If she doesn't want to risk it..chances are any logical husband will agree. Say she gets to labor and the doctor says it's her or the baby...well that's her choice but the doctor also asks him for a reason. Chances are, if the husband has a choice between a child and his wife...he's going to choose his wife. So again, my point is that in a perfect situation where it's a husband and wife, no sicknesses, no outside forces involved. Just purely a relationship where a baby will be born happy and healthy, he should not be discarded as a moron just because the wife wants to drink and smoke and be selfish. It's really that simple. A relationship is 50/50 and this is a big decision. By the way, if the wife goes behind the husband's back and gets an abortion, he can sue. Just saying. So the law agrees with me as well.
And what does she have to go through? Doting from her family and friends? Oh not that! Oh man, not cramps! (Periods are the same way.) Morning sickness? That doesn't last the entire term.
Also: not only are there so many drugs the woman goes on during labor, there are C-sections, and also the fact that even though a *****y woman will hold this against her husband, the pain gets forgotten as soon as she sees the baby's face (according to many accounts.) So all the "agony" she is going through is really really irrelevant.
GhostAnime
Searching for her...
So you weed out the most common situations in favor of your specific situation where the male deserves all sympathy we can give. That's all fine and dandy, but it's a little silly to make a law for such a specific situation (not to mention INCREDIBLY hard to prove in a court case).
When all of this could EASILY be avoided with simple, honest conversation before sexual intercourse.
You can make all the arguments you want about how she can bear it, have her job protected (this isn't clear for every woman), blah blah blah. We still can't ignore the fact that it's ultimately the responsibility of both people to understand the possibility of pregnancy and to talk about it.
When all of this could EASILY be avoided with simple, honest conversation before sexual intercourse.
.. In lying. It doesn't agree with you the whole way. Nice try.
You can make all the arguments you want about how she can bear it, have her job protected (this isn't clear for every woman), blah blah blah. We still can't ignore the fact that it's ultimately the responsibility of both people to understand the possibility of pregnancy and to talk about it.