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Abortion. Right or Wrong?

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Requiem's Eclipse

Hopelessly Hopeful
Ah man those pictures I put up are questionable......I just put em up to just show some stuff about what were talkin about here.

But to end my piece here ill say, I disagree with abortion for the following two reason's-
1.I find it as murder to take a babies life regardless of what state it is, fetus etc.
2.Not saying all women do this but, when a women choses' to do it because she doesn't fell like taking care of the child or any other reason setting aside rape.

Yeah but, late term abotions are even rarer then abortions in general. And, particularly if you knew they were questionable and disturbing why post them without a warning is strange as well. And getting them from photobucket people are able to photoshop things. THough I only saw a fourth of one of them because I'm rather squimish.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
nobody has demonstrated why a reason would even matter when it comes to doing something similar to cutting off my own arm.
 

John13wb

Earthbound Hero
Why would the woman have to suffer through pregnancy? Why would the kid have to grow up in an orphanage feeling unwanted? In this case, most people would prefer to get an abortion quietly and NOT tell people they were raped.


Maybe so, but then the woman is acting even worse. Because, if you don't tell people if you got raped, then it's YOUR fault the rapist is still out there and impregnating other women. So really, you are almost as bad as the rapist if you do not tell anyone about it.

Why get an abortion if you get pregnant? So you can tell the rapist he won? Because rape isn't truly a crime of passion, it's a power crime with sex mixed in. In having abortion, he's forcing you to take a life just because you are too much of a coward to have the child.
 
Did you ever wonder how bad orphans/abandoned kids are treated in most countries? Even in USA, they don't live the "good life". And what guarantee do you have that someone will adopt the kid? Most orphans/abandoned kids die waiting for adoption.
Links, statistics, proof, etc. please.
If they were aborted, they would just die painlessly and, if religion is correct(which it might as well halfway be), the baby will live a good afterlife unless the "soul" had been evil in the earlier lives, etc.
And, people are too stupid and corrupt* to think what would happen to the children. They'd just go abort the kid, and if they can't, something much worse would happen. Admit it: All your arguments are useless.
Funny, because you haven't provided a single good argument.

* Yes, I hate this species. Most members of it, anyway. If you ask me if I'm not human, I am, physically, but mentally, I'm separate from this failure of a species.
Stop, just stop. No...just no. You're not cool.
Getting an abortion to prevent hardships is like cutting off your arm so you don't burn your fingers on the stove
 

Scizito_92

koledge graduit!!!11
Maybe so, but then the woman is acting even worse. Because, if you don't tell people if you got raped, then it's YOUR fault the rapist is still out there and impregnating other women. So really, you are almost as bad as the rapist if you do not tell anyone about it.

Why get an abortion if you get pregnant? So you can tell the rapist he won? Because rape isn't truly a crime of passion, it's a power crime with sex mixed in. In having abortion, he's forcing you to take a life just because you are too much of a coward to have the child.

Do you have any idea what it's like to be raped? Any? I know I don't, but because I acually care about other people's feelings and how something might affect them, I listen to their stories. Not announcing the fact you were raped, or not having a kid because you were raped does not make you a coward. It's hard. Mentally damaging.

Also, getting an abortion because you were raped does not mean the rapist won. I don't know where you get an idea like that. People don't rape others because they want the mom to choose whether or not to get an abortion. They rape because they're sex hungry.
 

youssef20138

1000 Years of Pain!
Let the semi-nice bashing begin then =)
Thanks I guess.
First of all, the fetus' life isn't developed either way. In the first trimester, it doesn't have a brain yet. It doesn't react to anything, care about anything, or even WANT to exist. Since it hasn't experienced life yet, it wouldn't be missing anything. I could say the same to you about being a multi-millionaire.
It's because it doesn't know any better, it doesn't change the fact that's it's morally wrong. It's like telling a kid you give him something and let him do some dangerous stunt for it.
Well, there are the 9 months of pain, sickness, grey hairs, and stretch marks that the woman has to suffer through. If it's a teen, she might be kicked out of school; if not, she would probably still miss a bunch of lessons. Either way, it can greatly screw up one's life.
I haven't experienced the feeling of birth since, well I am a dude, so I can't really put myself into the shoes of the woman who is about to have a baby.
But, the chances are high that if a teenage girl is about to have a baby, the whole familly and the school will support her, if not se could still get her comvert from her friends.
Also, you mentioned adoption. The adoption system in the US simply doesn't work. Unless the baby is white and healthy, it has a VERY slim chance of being adopted. Even then, there is still no guarantee. Hell, more people adopt from out of country because of how annoying and difficult it is to adopt in the US.
I have to admit that I didn't knew about that, I assumed that adoption agencies in the US were pretty good. But, since you said that people can go to other countries to adopt baby's isn't it possible to put those baby's in for adoption in those countries aswell?
 
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John13wb

Earthbound Hero
Do you have any idea what it's like to be raped? Any? I know I don't, but because I acually care about other people's feelings and how something might affect them, I listen to their stories. Not announcing the fact you were raped, or not having a kid because you were raped does not make you a coward. It's hard. Mentally damaging.

Also, getting an abortion because you were raped does not mean the rapist won. I don't know where you get an idea like that. People don't rape others because they want the mom to choose whether or not to get an abortion. They rape because they're sex hungry.

Wrong. Twice. Maybe once, because you didn't say I didn't care about other people.

Rape is not just committed because of wanting sex. I is used to humiliate the person, be it a man or a woman. Sex hungriness is just one of the reasons.

I do care about what people think which is why girls shouldn't get abortions. Because it means that the rapist just gained another way to humiliate you. Forcing you to abort your own child.

By the way, nice to see another Ohioan.
 

Scizito_92

koledge graduit!!!11
Wrong. Twice. Maybe once, because you didn't say I didn't care about other people.

Rape is not just committed because of wanting sex. I is used to humiliate the person, be it a man or a woman. Sex hungriness is just one of the reasons.

I do care about what people think which is why girls shouldn't get abortions. Because it means that the rapist just gained another way to humiliate you. Forcing you to abort your own child.

By the way, nice to see another Ohioan.

I never said you didn't care about other people. I just said I actually do, which is why I think they should have an abortion if they don't wish to hold the responsibilities of having a kid. Sorry if I implied that you didn't care about other people's feelings. And I don't see having an abortion as humiliation. I dunno. Different ways of thinking I guess.

Also, both of my parents worked with delivering babies in medical school, and I heard many stories (both bad and good) from them. I guess it's different for me.

Where in Ohio do you live. I live in Cincinnati. :p
 

sockyskarmie

Well-Known Member
Well, there are the 9 months of pain, sickness, grey hairs, and stretch marks that the woman has to suffer through. If it's a teen, she might be kicked out of school; if not, she would probably still miss a bunch of lessons. Either way, it can greatly screw up one's life.

You know what else would greatly screw up one's life? if one died in the process of abortion
 
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John13wb

Earthbound Hero
I never said you didn't care about other people. I just said I actually do, which is why I think they should have an abortion if they don't wish to hold the responsibilities of having a kid. Sorry if I implied that you didn't care about other people's feelings. And I don't see having an abortion as humiliation. I dunno. Different ways of thinking I guess.

Also, both of my parents worked with delivering babies in medical school, and I heard many stories (both bad and good) from them. I guess it's different for me.

Where in Ohio do you live. I live in Cincinnati. :p

Youngstown.


Anyways, I just think having an abortion would be humiliating (I'm a guy) because it's like admitting you have given up and want nothing to do with the child. I think abortion is basically is a synonym for adoption.
 

Cutiebunny

Frosty Fashionista
Umm...

1) Most women who are raped do not become pregnant. This is because a woman's body typically does not become pregnant under conditions of heavy stress. Most invitro clinics will actually advise women to evaluate stressful conditions in their lives and try to correct those prior to going for that procedure.

2) I actually feel for the plight of many men because many women can't decide what they want, or express exactly the opposite of what they want. At first, they want to have sex and then, midstream, change their minds. Or, they never say anything and then they cry 'rape' after the act has been done.

I have no problem with women having abortions. Most women do this because they feel that they are unable to take care of the child, and I would rather they do that then carry it to term and raise the child for the next 18 years even though they are unable to mentally or financially do so.

The excuse of "well, they can always give it up" is a poor one. Many young women have no clue as to how to take care of themselves while they are pregnant. So, they give birth to a child that has many severe defects. These handicapped children will likely never be adopted and will spend the first 18 years of their life going from foster home to foster home, or they'll be admitted into a long term care facility. That's not the kind of existence that I'd like to see anyone go through.
 

wants_latios_lots

I miss you Maddie <3
First off, forum lag is awful in debates.

I posted a fact that the statistics for pregnancy from rape are 4.7% earlier, and:
Where's the source? Putting quotes around a statement doesn't make it true.
I would assume the U.S. Census would be reliable, but here:
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims


OK, I looked it up, and responsiveness is the ability to respond to stimuli. And, as the cells in a zygote 'know' when and how to divide (an internal stimulus, but still a stimulus), yes, a zygote is alive. Either that, or a bacterium isn't.

However, one could argue that a zygote is on the same level of consciousness that a bacterium is. And no one mourns the death of bacteria; it is actually encouraged. And having a baby does make a mother sick, like a bacterium. So, why are people so sure that a zygote has a soul, but a bacterium does not (or at least, I think that's what you guys think. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong;) )?
I wanted to stop talking about souls, but why not. Let's look at this as logically as possible. Humans are given souls, according to various religions. A zygote is living, technically, and it is human. So, a living human gets a soul, a zygote gets a soul. There's little mention of bacteria getting souls, so we can only assume that they don't.

Of course, there are religions which assign importance to all life forms, so I don't see why the killing of bacteria isn't brought up as much...Hm.
Well, I remember you saying that if you don't want a baby don't have sex, so you should only have sex when you want a baby? What about married people? A sexless marriage is not a good one.
I think that a marriage shouldn't be sexless per se, I just think that if they want to have sex, they should be adult enough to think
"Hey, this could result in a baby, so let's weigh the options we have."
If they're in love, they should be willing to wait to have sex.

Consider the first argument, killing a foetus does not detract from society, the foetus is not fulfilling a necessary role in the community, nor is it a valued and loved individual. In short, nothing will suffer from its death. On the other hand the woman in danger will very likely be both a contributing member of society and a loved individual. Logically therefore we must assume that the mothers life takes precedence in this scenario. Therefore if the birth will endanger the mother we should take steps to abort the child.
Wrong in thinking it isn't loved or valued. Dead wrong.

This is where I get back on the fence about the issue: when the pregnancy endangers the woman. The issue isn't black and white, and there aren't any clear-cut answers. You're entirely right in that regard.

As for the second argument, well that works both ways. Logically whilst we attempt to continue the existence of 'good' genes, we should be attempting to eliminate 'bad' genes, so any babies that may be born with horrific ilnesses or deformities likely will not pass on 'good' genes. (Not that I'm advocating eugenics or anything) Not to mention that the genes of the mother will be preserved if any potentially dangerous birth were to be aborted, thus ensuring the survival of at least one set of genes.
We're not "attempting" anything. We just live, and nature works its magic.
If the child is born with a life-threatening deformity, then it has to die on its own. We can't say that it's all bad, either; consider sickle-cell anemia. This genetic disorder affects the tertiary structure of hemoglobin, the primary component in blood cells. When one has sickle-cell anemia, their red blood cells are sickle shaped, and don't carry oxygen well. This is a deformity. However, it was later realized that the people with sickle-cell are less likely to carry, if not completely immune to, malaria.
So see, nature has to decide if a trait is unfavorable. We can only do our best to survive.

We aren't really supposed to have a conscious part in it.
First of all, the fetus' life isn't developed either way. In the first trimester, it doesn't have a brain yet. It doesn't react to anything, care about anything, or even WANT to exist. Since it hasn't experienced life yet, it wouldn't be missing anything. I could say the same to you about being a multi-millionaire.
I think ??????? [did I put enough ? marks"] covered that it does have responsiveness, so it does react. If you're arguing the fact that it doesn't have a will to live, then I can say that a newborn infant has the same non-willingness to live.
Hopefully that's not a strawman argument, but as far as I know, neither of them will fight back if you kill them, but killing one's alright, but the other isn't.

Well, there are the 9 months of pain, sickness, grey hairs, and stretch marks that the woman has to suffer through. If it's a teen, she might be kicked out of school; if not, she would probably still miss a bunch of lessons. Either way, it can greatly screw up one's life.
I try really hard to feel sorry for them, but ultimately, about 95% of them should have known better. And also, a natural bodily function doesn't justify destroying life. [It's life, we've discussed it.]

Also, you mentioned adoption. The adoption system in the US simply doesn't work. Unless the baby is white and healthy, it has a VERY slim chance of being adopted. Even then, there is still no guarantee. Hell, more people adopt from out of country because of how annoying and difficult it is to adopt in the US.
Agreed, agreed out the wazoo. Here's me on the fence again. Abortion doesn't seem like the answer, but it's an answer, and it has to stay until a better option comes around. Like an improved adoption system.

I'm tired of the "they're the first step towards being a human" argument, it's no reason why they should be given the right to take away the rights of the women. Do you people also support giving babies guns and alcohol because they're "the first step towards being 18 and legal"?
And I'm tired of the "it's part of the woman, it's her choice" argument, but you're going to have to deal with it.
And you're going to have to deal with the fact that it is an early-stage human.

You're right: A child doesn't have the development to handle the responsibility of a gun. However, its brain supports life, as does a fetus. As for a zygote, or an early stage, brainless fetus, there is no difference in their life. They are both living organisms, there's no gray area.
[haha, gray matter.]
nobody has demonstrated why a reason would even matter when it comes to doing something similar to cutting off my own arm.
I did, page 13. Arm=/=embryo.
 
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TheCookieCutter

с нами Бог
Abortion is just plain wrong. People say that the baby isn't technically alive until it is born. They are totally wrong. The baby is always alive since the moment it is made. So basically Abortion is murder. The much better way is to put it up for adoption. That way, it will have a family that will love and care for it.

Also, Barrak Obama actually supported a bill that said if abortion failed to work, the mother could LEAVE THE CHILD TO DIE! How sick is that!
 

Scizito_92

koledge graduit!!!11
So see, nature has to decide if a trait is unfavorable. We can only do our best to survive.

We aren't really supposed to have a conscious part in it.

According to who? ._.

Abortion is just plain wrong. People say that the baby isn't technically alive until it is born. They are totally wrong. The baby is always alive since the moment it is made. So basically Abortion is murder. The much better way is to put it up for adoption. That way, it will have a family that will love and care for it.
If the kid ever does get adopted... how 'bout you try putting yourself in the shoes of people who have to go through this, before telling them what should happen to their life.

Also, Barrak Obama actually supported a bill that said if abortion failed to work, the mother could LEAVE THE CHILD TO DIE! How sick is that!

Umm. Could you please give me a website, or something supporting that Barrak Obama is a baby killer? ._.
 
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Xenieon

mainly a Gen IV player
Getting an abortion to prevent hardships is like cutting off your arm so you don't burn your fingers on the stove

You know what? I'm not wasting my time here trying to prove reality to people as stubborn as you.

And, no, they're not similar. Having too many kids almost always leads to a problems, while having a hand doesn't lead to burning it off. Now, can you please stop argue-flaming me?
 

Strants

Well-Known Member
I wanted to stop talking about souls, but why not. Let's look at this as logically as possible. Humans are given souls, according to various religions. A zygote is living, technically, and it is human. So, a living human gets a soul, a zygote gets a soul. There's little mention of bacteria getting souls, so we can only assume that they don't.
Humans have brains. A zygote is technically human. So, zygotes have brains. . . .No.

I'm sorry, but your logic sounds like that to me. I'd like evidence of a zygote having a soul (more mature humans show enough evidence).
 

wants_latios_lots

I miss you Maddie <3
Humans have brains. A zygote is technically human. So, zygotes have brains. . . .No.

I'm sorry, but your logic sounds like that to me. I'd like evidence of a zygote having a soul (more mature humans show enough evidence).
No apologies, don't worry about it.
So you'd like evidence...for the existence of a soul.
Well, you're not gonna get it from me. And besides, the physical and metaphysical often have no correlation, so neither you nor I have gained any ground here.
Didn't I say before that religion doesn't really belong here?
But again, a deity, in its infinite wisdom, could give a soul to a zygote. There aren't any physical requirements for a soul, far as I can tell. But please, let's stop that derailment right now.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
latios said:
I did, page 13. Arm=/=embryo.
that isnt enough. they're the same in terms of 'life'. both are a bunch of cells that develop over time potentially. as far as i'm concerned by the embryo, it has no feelings or thoughts; thus comparable to an arm.
 

wants_latios_lots

I miss you Maddie <3
that isnt enough. they're the same in terms of 'life'. both are a bunch of cells that develop over time potentially. as far as i'm concerned by the embryo, it has no feelings or thoughts; thus comparable to an arm.
I'm not too fond of the vagueness of the criteria for life, because it makes it hard to discuss, but unfortunately, that is what separates them: their potential. An arm will never sprout the necessary organs to produce meiotic cells; an embryo will.

If the potential to reproduce (that is, reproduction by the definition that it will either produce clones of oneself or produce sexual offsrping) can't be used to dissociate the living from the accesories of living, then we could assume that born, sexually immature children are not yet human, which obviously isn't true.

Feelings and thoughts aren't universal among living organisms. They aren't part of the responsiveness criterion, so. It still counts.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
their potential. An arm will never sprout the necessary organs to produce meiotic cells; an embryo will.
sadly the thing that separates them isn't present. equating 'will' with 'is' is an equivocation fallacy and we are merely discussing the time before it even happens only.

latios said:
Feelings and thoughts aren't universal among living organisms. They aren't part of the responsiveness criterion, so. It still counts.
heh, i'm not even challenging the idea of it 'living'; i'm just saying it's pretty much an arm.
 
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