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Abortion, Right or Wrong?

CSolarstorm

New spicy version
Is the fetus considered a citizen of the United States if it hasn't been born yet? Does it come under the protection of United States citizens? If according to our founding documents, everyone is created equal under God, does an unborn fetus count as equal to a fully grown woman if it isn't being done created yet?

I feel as if these are horrible questions, but I have been wanting to chip them in for a while now, because some of the arguments here take for granted that if the baby is human, that it is automatically protected by the United States government/insert government here. (is aware at the last minute UK/Australia/other governments are factors too)

Sorry...
 

lugia p

zekrom trainer
i think the fetus has a soul therefor it has rights and lots of peaple who cant have kids would love to adopt
 

Vaporeon4evr

Cyndakill
No, I'm not saying that abortion should be allowed because the death penalty is. My argument is more of a refutation than proving something to be fact.

People say that it's the government's duty to protect human rights, but it completely goes against the death penalty. It is merely an example of the fact that 'the government's duty' isn't really an argument to guard ALL 'human' life if it can't even protect a full-grown adult's life.

But the death penalty isn't allowed in all places. That's the entire point of my deconstruction of your argument. You must not understand the rules of logic very well. Suppose that the government bans the death penalty tomorrow (after all, it has done so in the past). Would abortions then have to be banned as well?

You're right. The fetus has literally done nothing to show that it even deserves rights... just like a bug has done nothing to declare it can be killed.

My infant nephew (three weeks old) has done nothing to show that he deserves rights. Hell, he lies in his bed and cries all day. What makes him any different from a fetus? The fact that he was born? And we're talking about human rights. Stay focused.

Then we're back at square one about how important this actually is.

Then you should be more cautious when using analogies to argue.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
But the death penalty isn't allowed in all places.
The fact that it CAN be allowed is all I need.

Would abortions then have to be banned as well?
No. They aren't co-joined.

What makes him any different from a fetus? The fact that he was born? And we're talking about human rights. Stay focused.
Yes.
 

Vaporeon4evr

Cyndakill
The fact that it CAN be allowed is all I need.

Then this is an incredibly weak argument. It CAN be prohibited as well. So it's definitely not all you need.

No. They aren't co-joined.

Then why are trying to parallel the two of them as the basis of an argument?


Okay, now we're getting somewhere. So the difference between the two is that the infant has been expelled from the mother's body, while a fetus has not. What happens during the act of childbirth that all of a sudden makes the fetus a human?
 

Farmermon

Is back once again!
i think the fetus has a soul therefor it has rights and lots of peaple who cant have kids would love to adopt
Yes but there are so many children out there that are alive today, that have no home, no parents, can barely find food and have to EAT DIRT.
What about those children? The ones that are already born are a much larger importance than those that aren't. They have more experience in the world. A fetus hasn't. I know I may be cruel but honestly. The adoption argument doesn't work because we can barely take care of our own children/others children that they are constantly dying from starvation. Abortion should be a right until we can take care of those people in poverty, and get them to keep out of it.
 

lugia p

zekrom trainer
how can the born have more inportence whats the diffrince and dirt why will they eat dirt
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
Then this is an incredibly weak argument. It CAN be prohibited as well. So it's definitely not all you need.
Why is that? All I needed was that it was possible for the government not to protect all humans. If it's possible, then the argument that the government protects human's right to life is weak.

Then why are trying to parallel the two of them as the basis of an argument?
They aren't parallel in the way you're thinking. The reason I bring in the death penalty is to simply disprove the notion that the government's duty is ALWAYS a human's rights to life.

What happens during the act of childbirth that all of a sudden makes the fetus a human?
Or.. makes the fetus protected by the government? Because it's counted in the census and already his its documents. SunnyC said it best.
 
lol. Well it's obvious everyone's still pretty composed even after my previous response since all that coming up on my screen is pro-choicers digging themselves into holes when an exceptionally intelligent pro-lifer comes into the field. I was expected a change in debating tactics but looks like I'm going to have to take the task upon myself.

Vaporeon4evr: You seem to be no stranger to debating, not even abortion arguments; you may have come across the hand analogy a few times. Let me bring it to the stand and leave the foetus aside for a moment.

Now my hand has 23 pairs of chromosomes. Therefore it is 'human', and keep in mind that I'm using the term as most pro-lifers do: very loosely. My hand is also 'alive'. Let me take you back to the seven signs of life:

1. Growth
2. Stimulus Response
3. Metabolism
4. Homeostasis
5. Reproduction
6. Mutation
7. Autonomous Motion

I'm not going to go on a tangent to try and prove my hand fits into every single criteria. Many of them are debatable; the list itself is a horrible indicator of life. But contrast my hand's results with this test to the foetus' during the first and second trimesters. You'll find that the results of the latter and former are easily interchangable. I could go on a further dissection of this if you like.

Now you wonder: where exactly do my hand and the foetus differ? In truth, they don't. My hand is to my body as the foetus is to the mother. The first cannot survive when remove from the second. I could very well cut off my hand right now, and neither you nor anyone else can tell me otherwise.

Now this begs the question: if the foetus and my hand are so strikingly similar then what's the fuss about; why is no-one protest about self-mutilation the way they do about abortion. For the answer I'm going to have to go to where your arguments and your entire stance stems from. You're giving the foetus personhood, sentience, humanity, a 'soul', blah blah whatever you want to call it. Why? Don't know, don't care. Maybe it's because of your misguided sentimentality of the clump of cells.

Fact of the matter is the foetus does not have any sense of individuality at its early stages of development simply because it does not have any organ to process its sentience. When pro-choicers revoke the foetus of any rights and call it 'not human' what they mean is this: my sixteen month old cousin cries when hungry, sleeps, gets up, laughs when I make a face; a foetus does not. It can't. It's basically a vegetable. It's in the third trimester that the foetus develops brain cells and starts developing its sentience about whose assumptions dictate your stance. And the third trimester is the period where even the most dedicated pro-choices stop condoning abortion.

Of course you could very well bring up the 'potential developed human' as nearly everyone does when I present them with the hand analogy, but as you or some other enlightened individual said during the course of this debate, 'we are not looking at what could be, we are looking at what is'.
 

~AussieWonder~

Well-Known Member
Depends upon the circumstances...

Basically if the woman and/or her doctor feel it is necessary, then right, otherwise it's wrong.
 

Vaporeon4evr

Cyndakill
Why is that? All I needed was that it was possible for the government not to protect all humans. If it's possible, then the argument that the government protects human's right to life is weak.

They aren't parallel in the way you're thinking. The reason I bring in the death penalty is to simply disprove the notion that the government's duty is ALWAYS a human's rights to life.

In all cases except for the death penalty, the government protects all humans. And even then, it's only because the perpetrator of the crime himself robbed another human of his right to life (most death penalty sentences are for murder). But I'd rather not debate the finer detail of capital punishment. The fact is, the government can deny right to life to people, but only under the most strenuous of circumstances. In almost all cases, the government always protects human right to life. It only takes it away when the criminal has proven not to be deserving of this right. Although a fetus may not have necessarily done anything to prove it does deserve these rights, it must be allowed the benefit of a doubt. "Innocent until proven guilty." The criminal has done something to have his life taken away. What has a fetus done?

Or.. makes the fetus protected by the government? Because it's counted in the census and already his its documents. SunnyC said it best.

What if the government were to suddenly deny you the right to life? Would you be so quick as to say, "well, the government gets to decide which humans have a right to life and which don't, so I'm not upset."

Even if you aren't in the census, or even a U.S. citizen, you are still protected by the U.S. government. You cannot go out and murder an illegal immigrant, or rob him, or commit any crime against him. So census, citizenship, and documents have nothing to do with it.

lol. Well it's obvious everyone's still pretty composed even after my previous response since all that coming up on my screen is pro-choicers digging themselves into holes when an exceptionally intelligent pro-lifer comes into the field. I was expected a change in debating tactics but looks like I'm going to have to take the task upon myself.

Thank you?

Vaporeon4evr: You seem to be no stranger to debating, not even abortion arguments; you may have come across the hand analogy a few times. Let me bring it to the stand and leave the foetus aside for a moment.

Ohai :)

Now my hand has 23 pairs of chromosomes. Therefore it is 'human', and keep in mind that I'm using the term as most pro-lifers do: very loosely. My hand is also 'alive'. Let me take you back to the seven signs of life:

1. Growth
2. Stimulus Response
3. Metabolism
4. Homeostasis
5. Reproduction
6. Mutation
7. Autonomous Motion

I'm not going to go on a tangent to try and prove my hand fits into every single criteria. Many of them are debatable; the list itself is a horrible indicator of life. But contrast my hand's results with this test to the foetus' during the first and second trimesters. You'll find that the results of the latter and former are easily interchangable. I could go on a further dissection of this if you like.

Now you wonder: where exactly do my hand and the foetus differ? In truth, they don't. My hand is to my body as the foetus is to the mother. The first cannot survive when remove from the second. I could very well cut off my hand right now, and neither you nor anyone else can tell me otherwise.

Now this begs the question: if the foetus and my hand are so strikingly similar then what's the fuss about; why is no-one protest about self-mutilation the way they do about abortion. For the answer I'm going to have to go to where your arguments and your entire stance stems from. You're giving the foetus personhood, sentience, humanity, a 'soul', blah blah whatever you want to call it. Why? Don't know, don't care. Maybe it's because of your misguided sentimentality of the clump of cells.

Fact of the matter is the foetus does not have any sense of individuality at its early stages of development simply because it does not have any organ to process its sentience. When pro-choicers revoke the foetus of any rights and call it 'not human' what they mean is this: my sixteen month old cousin cries when hungry, sleeps, gets up, laughs when I make a face; a foetus does not. It can't. It's basically a vegetable. It's in the third trimester that the foetus develops brain cells and starts developing its sentience about whose assumptions dictate your stance. And the third trimester is the period where even the most dedicated pro-choices stop condoning abortion.

Of course you could very well bring up the 'potential developed human' as nearly everyone does when I present them with the hand analogy, but as you or some other enlightened individual said during the course of this debate, 'we are not looking at what could be, we are looking at what is'.

You make good points, but I'm afraid you're missing the point of my argument here. I'm arguing under the assumption that a fetus is a human life, not claiming that it is one. But, despite how you look at it, humanity and life are subjective terms that have no unequivocal definition. At first, of course a fetus isn't a human. I don't consider it a human when it's a sperm stuck to an ovum. The problem is, I have no idea at which point the fetus does attain "humanity", again, because the term is so subjective. The whole point of MY argument is that we should be focusing on what defines human life, and when the fetus reaches this point. Up to this point, abortion should be allowed, because there is no human life in question. After that point, it should be prohibited, because the fetus is a human life, and is therefore entitled to its right to live, which cannot be violated by another human or government.

GhostAnime is simply edging around this unfortunate truth, claiming that whether or not a fetus is a human life, the government can still deny it the right to life. He claims that in the case of the death penalty, the government is denying the criminal's right to life, and so it should also be able to make the exception for abortion. He believes there are no such thing as inherent rights: only the rights the government gives you. And because the government assigns these "non-inherent" rights, they can deny them on a case-by-case basis, which includes abortion. I find this to be ridiculous. Inherent rights are inherent. The government protects them; it doesn't assign them.
 
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CSolarstorm

New spicy version
You make good points, but I'm afraid you're missing the point of my argument here. I'm arguing under the assumption that a fetus is a human life, not claiming that it is one. But, despite how you look at it, humanity and life are subjective terms that have no unequivocal definition...

In other words, nothing that anyone can say will qualify a fetus as non-human in your eyes, because you say we just cannot assume when a fetus becomes human, so abortion is too much of a risk. ...right?

The whole point of MY argument is that we should be focusing on what defines human life, and when the fetus reaches this point.[/B] Up to this point, abortion should be allowed, because there is no human life in question. After that point, it should be prohibited, because the fetus is a human life, and is therefore entitled to its right to live, which cannot be violated by another human or government.

So your only question is when abortion ceases to be okay?

That's fine and dandy, but you brush aside so many good comments and arguments that people are offering...they're just running out of stuff to say to you that you'll acknowledge as relevant.

IMO, at least. I've been following the argument for a while now.
 

.TraX.

Bad and Nationwide
My infant nephew (three weeks old) has done nothing to show that he deserves rights. Hell, he lies in his bed and cries all day. What makes him any different from a fetus? The fact that he was born? And we're talking about human rights. Stay focused.


Actually capable of breathing of his own accord, perhaps.
 

Slightly Insane

like a BOSS
Now you wonder: where exactly do my hand and the foetus differ? In truth, they don't. My hand is to my body as the foetus is to the mother. The first cannot survive when remove from the second. I could very well cut off my hand right now, and neither you nor anyone else can tell me otherwise.
But a hand will never grow into a fully grown human that can support itself. It takes less than a year for a fetus to stop requiring the nutrients of the mother, while the hand will take the nutrients for your entire life. Your hand = you. In a sense, your hand has rights, because it is you. If somebody decides to tie you up and blast your hand apart with a machine gun, they are going to pay the consequences.

Now this begs the question: if the foetus and my hand are so strikingly similar then what's the fuss about;
Because they aren't that similar. A fetus is separate from the mother, while your hand is you.

why is no-one protest about self-mutilation the way they do about abortion.
Because what you do with your hand/foot/body is up to you. A fetus is not part of the mother. It is half created by the mother, and half created by the father. Even if it was completely created by the mother, it would not be part of the mother. Attached? Yes. Part of her living functioning body? No. It is no more part of her body as a tapeworm is.

For the answer I'm going to have to go to where your arguments and your entire stance stems from. You're giving the foetus personhood, sentience, humanity, a 'soul', blah blah whatever you want to call it. Why? Don't know, don't care. Maybe it's because of your misguided sentimentality of the clump of cells.
Is it truly misguided to care about a life?

Fact of the matter is the foetus does not have any sense of individuality at its early stages of development simply because it does not have any organ to process its sentience. When pro-choicers revoke the foetus of any rights and call it 'not human' what they mean is this: my sixteen month old cousin cries when hungry, sleeps, gets up, laughs when I make a face; a foetus does not. It can't. It's basically a vegetable.
It does not cry when it is hungry because it is not hungry. It obtains its nutrients directly from the mother. It does not laugh when you make a face because it cannot see you.

I wake up, make breakfast by myself when I'm hungry, am capable of educating myself, and laugh at Jay Leno. A child of sixteen months cannot. Does this make it less than me? Certainly not. It has not fully grown yet.

Your cousin of sixteen months cries when hungry, sleeps, gets up, and laughs when you make a face. A fetus cannot. Does this make it less than your cousin? Certainly not. It has not fully grown yet.

Of course you could very well bring up the 'potential developed human' as nearly everyone does when I present them with the hand analogy, but as you or some other enlightened individual said during the course of this debate, 'we are not looking at what could be, we are looking at what is'.
And why are you not looking at what could be? With the rare exception of a miscarriage, all pregnancies end in a newborn child, which will grow into a toddler, which will grow into a teenager, which will eventually grow into an adult that will reproduce children of his or her own.

There are three parts of the life of a fetus. What is, what will be, and what was. What is is that the fetus is rapidly growing into a newborn in nine months. What will be is a newborn that has grown past the fetus stage, and from there it will go through the process of life. What was was two people had vaginal intercourse, with full knowledge of what could happen if the condom broke/birth pill didn't work/they had unprotected sex, and the sperm met the egg. A pregnancy is not an accident. If you know how sex works, it is not an accident.

Is the fetus considered a citizen of the United States if it hasn't been born yet? Does it come under the protection of United States citizens? If according to our founding documents, everyone is created equal under God, does an unborn fetus count as equal to a fully grown woman if it isn't being done created yet?
Has the child fully grown even after it is out of the womb? Definitely not. The child is barely over a foot tall, cannot support itself with food, water, or warmth, and is more of a burden than it was in the womb.

Yet, this child has most of the rights as a fully grown adult (excepting things like drinking, voting, etc.). It still has to grow to full height. It has to learn to speak. It has to learn to move. It has to grow the ability to control its bladder. It cannot grow facial or pubic hair, or ejaculate. It is nowhere NEAR fully grown, but it has more rights than any fetus a few months younger than it.

In other words, nothing that anyone can say will qualify a fetus as non-human in your eyes, because you say we just cannot assume when a fetus becomes human, so abortion is too much of a risk. ...right?
It is always human. When human sperm mets a human egg, a human is created. The fetus is always human. It doesn't become a bear. Not a snake. Not a lamb. A human.

Actually capable of breathing of his own accord, perhaps.
It can breathe on its own accord because it has grown the ability to do that. A human fetus cannot do that because it has not grown the ability yet. Like a toddler hasn't grown the ability to ejaculate.

I have a question for pro-choicers. Why do you care if the baby feels pain? If feel it is moral to murder it, why do you care at all if it feels pain?
 
But a hand will never grow into a fully grown human that can support itself. It takes less than a year for a fetus to stop requiring the nutrients of the mother, while the hand will take the nutrients for your entire life. Your hand = you. In a sense, your hand has rights, because it is you. If somebody decides to tie you up and blast your hand apart with a machine gun, they are going to pay the consequences.

Of course my hands have rights. Every part of MY body has rights. Because my whole body is me. A fetus, in my opinion (and lot's of other's) ..is basically the mother, and the mother's rights.
If somebody hurts my hand ..they hurt me. I'm a living creature who is capable of my rights.
A woman with a fetus in her body ..can decide to do what she wants with it ..for it is attached to her inside of her body.

Because they aren't that similar. A fetus is separate from the mother, while your hand is you.

A fetus is evolved from an egg. A woman produces those eggs. They are her. Once the baby is born, then it shall have it's OWN rights.

Because what you do with your hand/foot/body is up to you. A fetus is not part of the mother. It is half created by the mother, and half created by the father. Even if it was completely created by the mother, it would not be part of the mother. Attached? Yes. Part of her living functioning body? No. It is no more part of her body as a tapeworm is.

But the father doesn't have to go through the pain of pregnancy and carrying that fetus. Even though I'd say the father should have some say in what the mother does, it's not fully his choice. If the baby was growing inside him, then he would.
A tapeworm isn't made inside your body. It's a parasite that gets inside and takes away nutrients and other stuff from the body.
A tapeworm and fetus are nothing similar.

Is it truly misguided to care about a life?

No.
But technically, it's pointless to care about what happens to a fetus, when is hasn't even been evolved fully yet.


I wake up, make breakfast by myself when I'm hungry, am capable of educating myself, and laugh at Jay Leno. A child of sixteen months cannot. Does this make it less than me? Certainly not. It has not fully grown yet.

A child of sixteen months doesn't live in another person's body. It's able to survive out in the world, without needing it's mother's nutrients and ect. Of course, it can't survive without being taken care of. It is able to be it's own person outside another person.

There are three parts of the life of a fetus. What is, what will be, and what was. What is is that the fetus is rapidly growing into a newborn in nine months. What will be is a newborn that has grown past the fetus stage, and from there it will go through the process of life. What was was two people had vaginal intercourse, with full knowledge of what could happen if the condom broke/birth pill didn't work/they had unprotected sex, and the sperm met the egg. A pregnancy is not an accident. If you know how sex works, it is not an accident.

Like I've said many times. If the people are smart and responsible enough to use protection ..and if sadly, it fails ..I don't see why it's their responsibility to have to take care of a baby, if they don't want one.
Sex is for pleasure and bonding as well as reproduction. Condoms and birth control were made for people to engage in sexual intercourse, without having to get pregnant/get the other person.

It is always human. When human sperm mets a human egg, a human is created. The fetus is always human. It doesn't become a bear. Not a snake. Not a lamb. A human.

So are you saying a fetus should have more rights than a living animal? Bulls hit.


I have a question for pro-choicers. Why do you care if the baby feels pain? If feel it is moral to murder it, why do you care at all if it feels pain?

..In all honestly, I don't care if the fetus can feel pain or not. The 'life' that is taken away from it ..is so quick ..it doesn't really matter at all. The fetus barely has a brain. Can't remember. It doesn't think, therefore ..I don't think it really cares if it gets 'killed' in a painful way.
 

The Director

Ancient Trainer
A tapeworm isn't made inside your body. It's a parasite that gets inside and takes away nutrients and other stuff from the body.
A tapeworm and fetus are nothing similar.

Hmm.

Sperm gets into female body, fertilises and starts to grow by taking nutrients, food, energy etc. Sounds like a parasite to me.

Definition of a parasite:
"an animal or plant that lives in or on a host (another animal or plant); it obtains nourishment from the host without benefiting or killing the host."

That sounds like a baby to me.

In affect really humans are parasites to the earth. Taking stuff from it without giving back.
 

GhostAnime

Searching for her...
The only difference between a tapeworm and a fetus is that the tapeworm doesn't come from the inside, but they still essentially do the same thing. Where it comes from has nothing to do with it being a parasite or not.

It only takes it away when the criminal has proven not to be deserving of this right. Although a fetus may not have necessarily done anything to prove it does deserve these rights, it must be allowed the benefit of a doubt. "Innocent until proven guilty." The criminal has done something to have his life taken away. What has a fetus done?
Good question. What has it done? You say we should give it to benefit of the doubt? Sure, but where do you draw the line? I honestly sense a gray area, and I am almost certain there there is a time where it's fine to actually abort.

What if the government were to suddenly deny you the right to life? Would you be so quick as to say, "well, the government gets to decide which humans have a right to life and which don't, so I'm not upset."
Well obviously I would object to it but if the government were as to whole-heartily agree that I have no right to life, I would be helpless.

Even if you aren't in the census, or even a U.S. citizen, you are still protected by the U.S. government. You cannot go out and murder an illegal immigrant, or rob him, or commit any crime against him. So census, citizenship, and documents have nothing to do with it.
Valid point. I guess have no real response to this.
 
I'm pro-choice, but guys this debate is circular.
bleh, I'm out for a while.
 

Farmermon

Is back once again!
how can the born have more inportence whats the diffrince and dirt why will they eat dirt

Ugh you didn't read my post well. People who are born have more experience, they have been alive longer, have more experience, have things planned out for there lives, etc etc. A fetus doesn't have those plans or experiences yet. Yes its murder to kill a fetus, but we need to focus on our people that are born and suffering first.

There are children in Africa so poor and starving that they have to eat dirt, just to give them something of subtanence to survive.

ANd I agree with shining-Celebi, which ever side you choose, you can endlessly debate this topic. We will get no where with this one.
 

Vaporeon4evr

Cyndakill
In other words, nothing that anyone can say will qualify a fetus as non-human in your eyes, because you say we just cannot assume when a fetus becomes human, so abortion is too much of a risk. ...right?

You are partially correct. A fetus is non-human up to a certain point. No one can qualify a fetus as non-human in the latter stages of pregnancy, because there are so many characteristics attributed to humanity which a fetus displays and doesn't display. Abortion isn't a risk: it's fine up to a certain point, after which it is illegal.

So your only question is when abortion ceases to be okay?

That's fine and dandy, but you brush aside so many good comments and arguments that people are offering...they're just running out of stuff to say to you that you'll acknowledge as relevant.

IMO, at least. I've been following the argument for a while now.

Yes.

What I'm doing is reframing the debate. I'm tired of pro-lifers saying "It's alive! Abortion is murder!" and pro-choicers saying "Women's choice! Her body, she does what she wants!" It's always the same sh*t, and it never gets anywhere. I thought about it, and I realize the fundamental conflict is the fetus' identity as a human. Murder is illegal. If the fetus is human, then abortion is murder, and should not be allowed period. If the fetus is not human, then the woman is entitled to do what she wants with it. The problem is, no one can agree on whether it is a human. All we know is that somewhere along the path of pregnancy, the fetus becomes human, and it is no longer okay to kill it. I'm challenging this debate to find this point.

I uphold that human life should be regarded and protected under any circumstance. I just have no idea at which point a fetus becomes human. Sure, you may see this as a security blanket for me to shrug off the standard abortion arguments, but really, it's a means of bypassing all the standard crap. I'm cutting to the core of the argument: the fetus's humanity.

Good question. What has it done? You say we should give it to benefit of the doubt? Sure, but where do you draw the line? I honestly sense a gray area, and I am almost certain there there is a time where it's fine to actually abort.

Let me rephrase this argument. In the case of the death penalty, the criminal originally had the right to life, did he not? And then he committed his crime, and the government decided he was undeserving of the right to life, so they took it away. In this instance, he had the right to life, and then did something to have it taken away.

In the case of abortion, these rights are denied from the very beginning. The fetus never had them. If you must cite the death penalty as a grounds for the government denying rights, bear this in mind: in the death penalty, right to life is taken away. In legalized abortion, this right is never even given.

I do believe there are appropriate moments to abort. Morally, I oppose all abortions, but I concede that special cases require special attention. Early term abortions are acceptable to me, because as others have stated, a clump of cells isn't a human. However, once you get to the late scond trimester and third trimester, the fetus begins to develop human functions and resemble a human, and claiming it isn't a human becomes more difficult.

Well obviously I would object to it but if the government were as to whole-heartily agree that I have no right to life, I would be helpless.

So you give up and allow the government to walk on you, because at the end of the day, you just cannot stop them?
 
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