Abortion, Right or Wrong?

[Pandeji]

Lol.
I don't think I'll be posting too much more in this thread.
Vaporeon has the right idea.

Well, I believe it is at the moment of conception. But because this is not known, we can only debate about it until we get tired. I think you need to ask yourself when YOU think it starts living as a human being.

And, for one of the few times in my life, I fully comprehend the pro-life side of the debate.
If pro-lifers (or, at least ones who think like Vap) believe that a fetus is life when it is first conceived, then they are simply arguing that the child deserves the life in order to at least decide if it wants to live. And, because it's currently up to each person as to when life initially occurs, the debate will never end.

I do have a parting note (hah in all honestly I'll probably post here a couple more times, but eh).
@ Vaporeon: If, as you admitted, it's currently up to each individual person when the moment a fetus becomes "an individual life," isn't your argument going against that? Isn't pro-life saying that the people HAVE to accept that life is whenever you guys (pro-life arguers) think it is?
Whereas, on the other hand, pro-choice arguers leave it open to every person. Pro-choice allows for pro-life without forcing our own individual ideas onto other people, and that is why I'm pro-choice.
Just something to ponder.

Have fun guys!
Panda out.

 

[Vaporeon4evr]

Lol.
I don't think I'll be posting too much more in this thread.
Vaporeon has the right idea.

And, for one of the few times in my life, I fully comprehend the pro-life side of the debate.
If pro-lifers (or, at least ones who think like Vap) believe that a fetus is life when it is first conceived, then they are simply arguing that the child deserves the life in order to at least decide if it wants to live. And, because it's currently up to each person as to when life initially occurs, the debate will never end.

I do have a parting note (hah in all honestly I'll probably post here a couple more times, but eh).
@ Vaporeon: If, as you admitted, it's currently up to each individual person when the moment a fetus becomes "an individual life," isn't your argument going against that? Isn't pro-life saying that the people HAVE to accept that life is whenever you guys (pro-life arguers) think it is?
Whereas, on the other hand, pro-choice arguers leave it open to every person. Pro-choice allows for pro-life without forcing our own individual ideas onto other people, and that is why I'm pro-choice.
Just something to ponder.

Have fun guys!
Panda out.

Well, I'll go ahead and you give you my closing thoughts on this, and bid you a good farewell.

As long as there is no universal consensus on what determines life and when a fetus can be truly considered alive, there will always be a discrepancy between pro-life and pro-choice. Think about it, if the medical world came to a specific conclusion that life begins after the 21st week of gestation (just a number, for argument's sake), then there would be no debate. Up to the 21st week, abortion is okay. Afterwards, it is not.

Pro-life advocates will more often than not consider the fetus/embryo alive from the moment of conception, and therefore believe that abortion is always wrong. Pro-choice advocates don't know when they believe life starts, and have varied opinions on what determines life. Some would say it is at the moment of childbirth, others at the point where cognitive thinking develops, others at the development of the nervous system, etc.

Pro-lifers (well, at least me) will say it's alive from the beginning. Pro-choicers will say that it isn't alive until X point, with X constantly changing from person to person.

 

[Fused]

And what is it that gives the tonsils its life? The organism it belongs to. The fact of the matter is that the tonsils cannot live outside of a human body as its own entity. It is a part of a whole.

There we go. That's what I've been waiting for this entire time. Replace tonsils with fetus. Of course, a fetus willr eacha certain point when it can live outside of the mother's body. This is around the beginning of the thrid trimester. I think abortions should only happen between the first an second trimesters, when the fetus cannot truly exist as a separate entity, or during the thrid trimester for emergencies only, as by the third trimester the fetus is absolutely capable of surviving outside of the mother's body.

But, I was thinking about this last night, and I'll have to politely withdraw from this debate as there is never a definite agreement on when human life starts and this debate can't go anywhere until we figure that out and to be honest I don't think we'll ever figure it out. But as I said earlier, this debate is destined to have a short life span as contraception methods will only get betetr and, if we can get our sex education back on track, pregnancies will only come to those who want them and abortions will then be a thing of the past. So with that, farewell.

 

[Intelligence]

There we go. That's what I've been waiting for this entire time. Replace tonsils with fetus. Of course, a fetus willr eacha certain point when it can live outside of the mother's body. This is around the beginning of the thrid trimester. I think abortions should only happen between the first an second trimesters, when the fetus cannot truly exist as a separate entity, or during the thrid trimester for emergencies only, as by the third trimester the fetus is absolutely capable of surviving outside of the mother's body.

But, I was thinking about this last night, and I'll have to politely withdraw from this debate as there is never a definite agreement on when human life starts and this debate can't go anywhere until we figure that out and to be honest I don't think we'll ever figure it out. But as I said earlier, this debate is destined to have a short life span as contraception methods will only get betetr and, if we can get our sex education back on track, pregnancies will only come to those who want them and abortions will then be a thing of the past. So with that, farewell.

Quite right, quite right. But, strictly ontopic, I think it's the mother's decision on wether an abortion is right or wrong, not any such group or clan.

 

[Vaporeon4evr]

There we go. That's what I've been waiting for this entire time. Replace tonsils with fetus. Of course, a fetus willr eacha certain point when it can live outside of the mother's body. This is around the beginning of the thrid trimester. I think abortions should only happen between the first an second trimesters, when the fetus cannot truly exist as a separate entity, or during the thrid trimester for emergencies only, as by the third trimester the fetus is absolutely capable of surviving outside of the mother's body.

Haha, I knew you were waiting for me to say that. That's why I avoided it. Well, there's your definition of human. There's no where to go from here. You've got your definition, and I've got mine. Neither correct, neither is wrong. So (funny how the timing works out), I too shall have to withdraw.

But, I was thinking about this last night, and I'll have to politely withdraw from this debate as there is never a definite agreement on when human life starts and this debate can't go anywhere until we figure that out and to be honest I don't think we'll ever figure it out. But as I said earlier, this debate is destined to have a short life span as contraception methods will only get betetr and, if we can get our sex education back on track, pregnancies will only come to those who want them and abortions will then be a thing of the past. So with that, farewell.

Mmhmm, my thoughts exactly. Well, thank you for a vigorous debate. You have given me a good perspective of the pro choice argument, and I will definitely use the content from this debate in the future when I (inevitably) will have to debate the topic again.

Cheers! Hopefully you are correct, and I pray for the day when abortions are no longer necessary.

EDIT:

Quite right, quite right. But, strictly ontopic, I think it's the mother's decision on wether an abortion is right or wrong, not any such group or clan.

Lol, and here we are, back where we started. I'll let some other pathetic fool take you. I've done my part.

 

[ReallyOcean]

But those arn't going to evolve into a human being. A fetus, last time I checked, is.

COULD, you mean. You can't say for certainty that a fetus will live and grow into a human being until it does. Of course, its age in the womb and whether or not it can physically survive outside of it is what I'm talking about.

 

[Dragonmaster91]

Pro-lifers (well, at least me) will say it's alive from the beginning. Pro-choicers will say that it isn't alive until X point, with X constantly changing from person to person.

No, that's what God says, and if God says it, I believe it. God probably gets really mad (then again, my argument will now sound like I am 2 or 3) whenever someone gets an abortion without meaning.

Now look, God created it so it can have a life, and abortion kills it right then and there, it never has a life. 3000 a year... Die before they even get an official Birthday... Think about what you do, think about what you support... The killing of innocent babies...

They never had a life... That's why God would get very mad, not at the woman, but the doctor, as the doctor is the one officially doing it.

Now I like doctors, they are cool and they really do help, I just had to go to a doctor an hour or two ago, and it really helped, I just don't like abortion doctors.

But really, what would Jesus do, what would he say to you about that if you support it? Do you think he would be happy about your opinion on this? Jesus would be (censor).

 

[Carlisle]

No, that's what God says, and if God says it, I believe it. God probably gets really mad (then again, my argument will now sound like I am 2 or 3) whenever someone gets an abortion without meaning.

Now look, God created it so it can have a life, and abortion kills it right then and there, it never has a life. 3000 a year... Die before they even get an official Birthday... Think about what you do, think about what you support... The killing of innocent babies...

They never had a life... That's why God would get very mad, not at the woman, but the doctor, as the doctor is the one officially doing it.

Now I like doctors, they are cool and they really do help, I just had to go to a doctor an hour or two ago, and it really helped, I just don't like abortion doctors.

But really, what would Jesus do, what would he say to you about that if you support it? Do you think he would be happy about your opinion on this? Jesus would be (censor).

I, and many other people, could care less as to what Jesus would do or say.

Laws should be decided on the people and what they think, not based on what an outdated book says.

 

[I cant think of a name]

No, that's what God says, and if God says it, I believe it. God probably gets really mad (then again, my argument will now sound like I am 2 or 3) whenever someone gets an abortion without meaning.

Now look, God created it so it can have a life, and abortion kills it right then and there, it never has a life. 3000 a year... Die before they even get an official Birthday... Think about what you do, think about what you support... The killing of innocent babies...

They never had a life... That's why God would get very mad, not at the woman, but the doctor, as the doctor is the one officially doing it.

Now I like doctors, they are cool and they really do help, I just had to go to a doctor an hour or two ago, and it really helped, I just don't like abortion doctors.

But really, what would Jesus do, what would he say to you about that if you support it? Do you think he would be happy about your opinion on this? Jesus would be (censor).

Your entire argument's foundation is based upon your God. Your God cannot be proven to be real, thus, your argument cannot be proven. The basis for your argument cannot be something for which there is little to no evidence for, it simply is not a valid point, to prove your statement you must first prove that God exists, something which is impossible. The bottom line is, laws should be based on something more tangible than a 2,000+ year-old book, like the constitution.

 

[Requiem's Eclipse]

No, that's what God says, and if God says it, I believe it. God probably gets really mad (then again, my argument will now sound like I am 2 or 3) whenever someone gets an abortion without meaning.

Now look, God created it so it can have a life, and abortion kills it right then and there, it never has a life. 3000 a year... Die before they even get an official Birthday... Think about what you do, think about what you support... The killing of innocent babies...

They never had a life... That's why God would get very mad, not at the woman, but the doctor, as the doctor is the one officially doing it.

Now I like doctors, they are cool and they really do help, I just had to go to a doctor an hour or two ago, and it really helped, I just don't like abortion doctors.

But really, what would Jesus do, what would he say to you about that if you support it? Do you think he would be happy about your opinion on this? Jesus would be (censor).

Hm, so god makes a baby in the womb of a women yeah, I'd beg to differ from that but, it truely is the women's and father's choice what they should do. I only say do an abortion if there is a serious health issue or threat. Jesus shouldn't judge people for their actions as he says we shouldn't but, what do I care I don't believe in him.

 

[Fonzo123454321]

In my opinion its still killing a Human being. If a woman gets pregnant its her own fault(well unless she got raped) and she should be responsible for it. If a family is too poor to have a baby then why the hell do that? They just kill their own child before he/she even is born and they think thats the solution?(and no it isnt alright to kill him/he after he/she is born either) The moment u have sex u are aware of what can happen, but is having that fun worth killing someone? Ok lets say the girl is 16 and she says that if she has the baby then she'll have to drop out of school and give up on her dreams and ect. That is all a lie. First off it is her fault for doing it in the first place and second yes u can stay in school or follow ur dreams or exc., its just harder.

 

[shining-Celebi]

In my opinion its still killing a Human being. If a woman gets pregnant its her own fault(well unless she got raped) and she should be responsible for it. If a family is too poor to have a baby then why the hell do that? They just kill their own child before he/she even is born and they think thats the solution?(and no it isnt alright to kill him/he after he/she is born either) The moment u have sex u are aware of what can happen, but is having that fun worth killing someone? Ok lets say the girl is 16 and she says that if she has the baby then she'll have to drop out of school and give up on her dreams and ect. That is all a lie. First off it is her fault for doing it in the first place and second yes u can stay in school or follow ur dreams or exc., its just harder.

For another fucking time, it's unrealistic for people to stop having sex. No matter how much you wish people had sex until marriage, it isn't going to happen. Just like abortions aren't going to stop.
And saying "your fault your fault your fault" is only pointing fingers and not doing anything in the long run to help/hinder the cause of abortion.
It just makes you sound like a total douchebag. :/

EDIT: Oh and what moral/any obligation should they have to keep the baby just so YOU, and any other pro-lifer can sleep better at night?

 

[.TraX.]

Don't think you've won the debate with a simpleton argument like that. It will develop into a human, since it contains human DNA. It won't develop into anything else.

...and a caterpillar will develop into a butterfly.

It still doesn't make it a butterfly.

 

[Fused]

I really didn't want to come back this soon.

In my opinion its still killing a Human being. If a woman gets pregnant its her own fault(well unless she got raped) and she should be responsible for it. If a family is too poor to have a baby then why the hell do that? They just kill their own child before he/she even is born and they think thats the solution?(and no it isnt alright to kill him/he after he/she is born either) The moment u have sex u are aware of what can happen, but is having that fun worth killing someone? Ok lets say the girl is 16 and she says that if she has the baby then she'll have to drop out of school and give up on her dreams and ect. That is all a lie. First off it is her fault for doing it in the first place and second yes u can stay in school or follow ur dreams or exc., its just harder.

Okay, there are SOOOOOOOOOO MANY THINGS wrong with this.

1) Most people are responsible enough to use some form of protection.
2) Not all protection works 100% of the time for whatever reason, like the condom breaking or anti-biotics cancelling out birth control (that's what happened to my sister.)
-2.5) Fun Fact: most supporters of the Pro-Life movement advocate that abstinence be taught in schools instead of safe and responsible sex. Abstinence, while it does prevent pregnancy, will never work on 98% of unmarried people. Safe sex needs to be taught. Less STDs going around, less pregnancies and therefore less abortions.
3) Why should a child be forced to grow up in a home that is in a state of poverty? It's not a good environment. Yes, the government can help you with money, but there is still a lot of struggling.
4) I posted statistics on the previous page, that msot women actually get abortions either because of financial or health issues or because their parents or community force them to.
5) Having sex will not always lead to pregnancy, not even all unprotected sex will.
6) Some teenaged mothers do drop out of school because they cannot get help taking care of their child. Not even their parents will help them. They have been abandoned with a child.

So, stop pointing fingers because it doesn't help the debate and quite honestly you don't seem to really know what you're talking about. Abortion willf ade away/become rare as it is already on the decline.

 

[Vaporeon4evr]

I, and many other people, could care less as to what Jesus would do or say.

Laws should be decided on the people and what they think, not based on what an outdated book says.

I believe a simple "religion has no place in the abortion debate" would suffice here :/

Comments like these make simple-minded people defensive of their faith, and then a pointless debate over religion ensues.

...and a caterpillar will develop into a butterfly.

It still doesn't make it a butterfly.

Come on, we're way past this. This has already been argued by SilverSaint:

The caterpillar looks and acts differently than the butterfly, but when it comes right down to it, they are exactly the same thing. All caterpillars share the exact same scientific name as their adult butterfly counterparts. That means they are not considered to be two different entities/species/ whatever you want to call it. They are considered to be the exact same thing, just in different stages of development.

See? Caterpillar and butterfly are terms for the same species in different stages of development. They aren't serapate species, you twit.

 

[SilverSaint]

Caterpillar and butterfly are terms for the same species in different stages of development. They aren't serapate species, you twit.

That's exactly what I said isn't it?
Or were you using it as an example?

EDIT: Nvm, I thought you were calling me the twit xD

 

[321ElliOt]

In certain circumstances i think it's a good decision, but i do think it should be a last resort

 

[Dragonmaster91]

Look, all I was doing was posting my side of the debate, you don't have to attack me and my belief over it. The bible is not outdated, and whoever said the constitution is outdated, BULLS***!!! That is the problem with modern day politics, everyone thinks the constitution is outdated, it isn't, and because our leaders believe that, they try to stomp all over your rights. Whover said that about the constitution, will never get any ANY political office, if they actually say that during their campaign, and ultimately be lying if they don't.

The only thing outdated about it is the voting thing, which is what Amendments are for, and this is subject to a whole 'nother debate, and I will reply no further.

All I was doing was stating my side.

Anyway, you know what, I'm changing my view.

Call me a flip-flopper, like Lord Obama is much different.

I think it is morally wrong in all ends, but it is a freedom to chose between letting something live, and not, at least, when a women is pregnant... That sounds very wrong if you think about it...

Never mind.

 

[Vaporeon4evr]

Look, all I was doing was posting my side of the debate, you don't have to attack me and my belief over it. The bible is not outdated, and whoever said the constitution is outdated, BULLS***!!!

*Sigh* I knew this would happen:

I believe a simple "religion has no place in the abortion debate" would suffice here :/

Comments like these make simple-minded people defensive of their faith, and then a pointless debate over religion ensues.

(insert "I told you so" and "nya-nya" here)

 

[Dragonmaster91]

*Sigh* I knew this would happen:



(insert "I told you so" and "nya-nya" here)

I wasn't necessarily defending my belief, I was defending my CONSTITUTION a lot more. I honestly don't care if people disagree with my belief. It's just the godless hooligans running around thinking they can do whatever they want. j/k

Seriously, I was joking. People don't get rid of God to be Anarchists, they do it to become... (subject for another debate).

I'm most certainly not simple-minded. I tried to ignore that, but wow. Now I'm simple-minded, whatever happened to "intolerant" and Rascist". Both of which I am not.