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Abortion - Under what circumstances should it be allowed?

Discussion in 'Debate Forum' started by JDavidC, Jul 29, 2013.

  1. bobjr

    bobjr It's Fusion, I don't have to expalin it. Staff Member Moderator

    I'm just quoting this for Biglutz to see.
     
  2. BigLutz

    BigLutz Banned

    Yes I know he is posting, merely blocking it because of reasons I stated before and do not need to reiterate in this thread.
     
  3. ellie

    ellie Δ Staff Member Admin

    but it shouldn't. lots of crazy people think lots of things should be banned that would infringe on others' rights. anti-vaxxers probably would want to disallow insurance from covering vaccines, which are absolutely vital to our society's survival. some other religious sects don't allow blood transfusions which save many people's lives. employers can choose whatever they want for themselves but they should not be able to dictate what happens to their employees. would you think it's fair if my boss decided to stop paying me because i spend all my money on alcohol (i don't actually but let's just pretend) and she's against alcohol?
     
  4. John Madden

    John Madden resident policy guy

    yes, we know, you're blocking it because unlike maedar and a few other posters, i actually force you to conform to certain standards of debate like "not citing blogs" and "maybe don't play devil's advocate for every single god damned thing" that you apparently seem to think are "trolling" because you disagree with their necessity.

    i don't even think you need to go for a thought exercise outside of the context of insurance here

    say the owners of the business you're an employer of are scientologists and some kind of federal law mandated insurance coverage of anything related to mental health issues. should we grant them an exemption and thereby screw over every employee that might be suffering from one of many well-documented mental health disorders?
     
  5. BigLutz

    BigLutz Banned

    In which case you can quit, and sue for lost wages, however Hobby Lobby is not refusing to keep its employees from buying any of the four contraceptives they are against with their own money, they merely want the same exemption religious exemption granted to others because of their beliefs. If you believe that exemption should not be allowed then your problem is with HHS, not with Hobby Lobby.
     
  6. John Madden

    John Madden resident policy guy

    and once again lutz fails to understand that the existing exemptions have been granted SOLELY to existing EXPLICITLY RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS

    or that granting an exemption to hobby lobby essentially means the SCOTUS needs to grant exemptions to scientologist-owned businesses, jehovah's witness-owned businesses, and businesses owned by people belonging to god knows how many other religions with their own sets of foibles about medical care

    something that even Scalia appears to be against, if the opinions he was writing pre-Roberts Court on the issue were any indication
     
  7. ellie

    ellie Δ Staff Member Admin

    yes tell me about this magical land where jobs are extremely easy to get, suing people is free and consumes no time, and i don't actually need the things i would be suing for in the meantime. the relationships is not balanced at all, employers have a lot more power than employees in this economy and employees can't afford to make trouble when they might not be able to find another job. that doesn't make it fair for them to do that. and once they offer a health benefit as part of a job, that belongs to the employee. they shouldn't be able to offer that with strings attached.
     
  8. BigLutz

    BigLutz Banned

    Considering we were in the world where bosses do not pay you money for work because of your alcohol use... I mean are you suggesting that you would not leave a job if they stopped paying you money?
     
  9. ellie

    ellie Δ Staff Member Admin

    my point was that once you give healthcare to an employee as part of job compensation, that belongs to the employee. your boss doesn't get to determine what you do with the money you earn, why should they get to determine what you do with your healthcare plan? and you didn't address john madden's far more realistic example either.
     
  10. BigLutz

    BigLutz Banned

    Then how about the Employer instead decides what is on the healthcare plan, just as he decides your job compensation, thus allowing you to decide if you want the job or not. And before you talk about how jobs are so hard to come by, I will ask if you would take a job below a level of wage that can sustain you, if not, then why would you take a job with a healthcare plan that cannot sustain you?

    I do not reply to Madden's post because of his past history of flaming and engaging in personal attacks whenever a debate gets started, its not worth my time trying to debate some one when I know it will only result in flaming and insults on his part somewhere down the line. If you want proof I can list a few... hundred examples.
     
  11. John Madden

    John Madden resident policy guy

    right, my past history of actually providing reliable sources and trying to get you to stop making circular arguments is completely glossed over in favor of the two or three times i've called you an obtuse moron who refuses to admit he's wrong and who always tries to go for the lowest-hanging fruit in every debate forum thread, because somehow you haven't gotten banned enough times for that to sink in

    this still doesn't answer whether you think scientologist-owned businesses should be granted exemptions from mental health care

    or whether businesses owned by a religion that only believes in "alternative medicine" should be granted an exemption from everything

    or whether a business owned by an anti-vaxer should be granted an exemption from vaccine coverage

    or whether a business owned by someone whose religion denies the existence of HIV/AIDS should be granted an exemption from covering anything related to it
     
  12. bobjr

    bobjr It's Fusion, I don't have to expalin it. Staff Member Moderator

    "Hey, do you want this bad job while you have no other options as a recent college graduate who is potentially in mountains of debt, or you can have no job and sink further into debt, which one do you want?"

    Also with John Madden either grow a pair or just ignore the thread because it's getting tiring having his posts counter yours while you just ignore them.
     
  13. BigLutz

    BigLutz Banned

    Completely agree, I am in the same situation right now, but sometimes you have to deal with the crap jobs while working the best you can to get a career going. Not every grocery store job is going to give you $30 a hour and a company car.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2014
  14. ellie

    ellie Δ Staff Member Admin

    if i had no other options, yeah, i would. i currently am right now. because a job that puts you in a slightly less huge hole of debt is better than no job at all. first of all, as i know from experience compensation things like that are rarely transparent. they probably won't tell you explicitly what they cover until you try to get something they won;t cover. and again, like i said, employers have all the power in this situation. if the supreme court allows people to opt out of certain parts based on morality, you really think that companies won't opt out of as many things as possible so they will pay as little as possible? SOME safeguards shoudl be in place to protect employees, and healthcare is something absolutely necessary.


    oh hey look at me enforcing the rules. don't ignore other debaters because of crap you are making up.
     
  15. BigLutz

    BigLutz Banned

    I am sure, but how long do they expect to keep employees around if they give them crap benefits? Just as the turn over with grocery stores and such is high, people will be looking for the next best thing to come along instead of staying at a location.

    Talked to Moogles when that rule was put in place and got the go ahead, if you believe I am making stuff up, I can send you a PM of posts.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2014
  16. ellie

    ellie Δ Staff Member Admin

    well i am above moogles and i am telling you what to do now.


    and you still don't seem to understand how much power employers have. if you are stuck in a bad job and don't have the education (which requires free time + money most of these people don't have) and/or connections to get a better job, your other options are probably equally bad. many of my coworkers have been in similar jobs their entire lives and are past the age that they will likely be able to enter a better field. someone like them is completely at the mercy of those companies offering them fair coverage.
     
  17. BigLutz

    BigLutz Banned

    Sent you a PM.

    I do know that, I also know that sometimes people have to resort to taking night and weekend classes while taking government loans in the hope to get a better job.
     
  18. ellie

    ellie Δ Staff Member Admin

    night and weekend classes aren't always an option. the schools near me personally don't even offer them, but even if you are lucky enough to live in an area that does, you might not be able to take advantage of them. working and doing school is tough and i only do part time work, if i had to do a full time job there is no way i would have enough energy to make it to class afterwards and still have time to study and be able to get decent grades in those classes. that only gets harder if you are supporting children, elderly/disabled relatives, etc. and it also goes back to the limited income, even junior college classes cost money and it might be very difficult for someone to set aside enough money for those. some people are simply stuck in those career paths and won't make it out unless they get extremely lucky.
     
  19. BigLutz

    BigLutz Banned

    Or you could look at Government Grants, is it hard? is it exhausting? Of course, but hard times are sometimes required for the betterment of a person's life.
     
  20. bobjr

    bobjr It's Fusion, I don't have to expalin it. Staff Member Moderator

    Any science major will confirm that there's always the one subject that will always be 8 in the morning, with a 4pm lab meaning your entire day you're out of luck if you want to work.
     
    Maedar likes this.

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