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Abortion - Under what circumstances should it be allowed?

Ok, I was adopted. I do not think my mother was raped, but she could have been, I never knew her. But I do have a friend who was adopted and his mother WAS raped. Now we look at these laws that basically would have made it legal for some selfish woman to take away OUR RIGHT TO LIVE. And whats sicker is that PEOPLE WOULD HAVE BEEN TOTALLY FINE WITH IT.
WE are the ones who are disgusted with all this bullcrap, mainly because were were a hairbreadth away from that being US. Now the absolutely stupid thing is that other people just seem not to care because they were not a hairbreadth away from being aborted. But in reality, it could have just as easily have been any of you in that situation.

My, "sibling" was born prematurely in a movie theater and later "suffocated" due to not having his lungs fully developed. My father told me when they first found out my mother was pregnant with me, they thought about aborting me. Not because they couldn't afford me, not because they didn't want me. But because they didn't know what may come of it. However, they later decided not to go through with it, and I gotta say, I'm quite happy they changed their minds. But, even knowing they were so close to doing so, I can't blame them. I've been in the position before.

Do you think that makes me automatically hate the idea of abortion? Actually no.
But, that's because I don't get my emotions mixed in to these sorts of things. Of course it sucked hearing those words, but I understand what people have to do sometimes, and that's one hundred percent fine with me.
Because technically, abortion is not killing. As I pointed out to you, but you refuse to acknowledge.

The point in this is, stop using emotions to back your "arguments". That means nothing here.
 

Maedar

Banned
Maybe you don't get it because you can't get pregnant and have never spent a lot of time with someone who was, but it's not some easy thing that is over in a few months and then your body is completely back to normal.

She hit the nail right on the head.

The all-male Texas House does not get it and neither do most pro-lifers because men cannot give birth and they don't know firsthand what it's like.

They can throw statistics at the pro-choice crowd all they like, but it's just not convincing in the least.
 
She hit the nail right on the head.

The all-male Texas House does not get it and neither do most pro-lifers because men cannot give birth and they don't know firsthand what it's like.

They can throw statistics at the pro-choice crowd all they like, but it's just not convincing in the least.

You can't give birth either. Does that mean we should discount your opinion too?
 

Steampunk

One Truth Prevails
You still don't seem to understand. Pregnancy is not one year of pain for a woman. Having a baby, even if you give it up for adoption, changes so many aspects of your life permanently. Maybe you don't get it because you can't get pregnant and have never spent a lot of time with someone who was, but it's not some easy thing that is over in a few months and then your body is completely back to normal.
Ok. I can accept that.
But here's the real ringer. The woman is still ALIVE. The fetus is not. And yes while she will feel the effects of the pregnancy the rest of her life. She will not be dead, unlike the fetus she should chose to abort.

Calling a woman who doesn't want to go through that for something that isn't even a human being is not selfish, it's absolutely disgusting that you are calling her that. The only selfish ones are the people who don't have to go through the pregnancy telling a woman she has to.
There really is no argument here.
Here is the dictionary definition of "Selfish"
(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.
How would the people who care for the fetus "the selfish ones?" They are thinking about the life of something other than their own, yet the mother is not doing that.
Now, by definition, this act would be considered selfish. The real question is "Is it moral for her to do this selfish act." That is what the debate is really about, not whether or not it is selfish.
EDIT: (Also, not to say its KIND to say someone is selfish, but its is the best word I could come up with.)
Your appealing to emotion is a really bad debate tactic,
Human emotion is what drives people. As Ive said before, Laws are made because of "Moral, economical, political or social values" which ultimately stem from human emotion.

Yes it could have easily been me. In fact, it almost was, albeit indirectly. My mom wasn't wanted by her mom and if abortion was legal at the time she almost certainly would have been aborted, meaning I obviously wouldn't exist. But that doesn't change my opinion.
See, that baffles me.
I rather LIKE living, thank you very much. Thinking that someone could have denied me that just seems wrong.

If I didn't exist I wouldn't know any difference. A fetus doesn't have memories or understand that it exists or doesn't exist.
True. But, its not for lack of trying. The ability to "know the difference" was taken away from them.

You know who does understand that?
Its not a lack of understanding, its a lack of agreeing.

A woman who is alive right now and having to go through a traumatic pregnancy that she doesn't want. Why should she have to suffer for the sake of something that doesn't even know whether it exists or not yet?
Key word: YET

But, that's because I don't get my emotions mixed in to these sorts of things.
As I said before, emotions are what drive human nature. They let us know what we would want other people to do to us, and that should tell us things about what we do to them.

Because technically, abortion is not killing. As I pointed out to you, but you refuse to acknowledge.
What you proved was that it was not an "entity." And the definition of "alive" Is basically "Not dead." And no the fetus is not dead until YOU make it that way.
of a person, animal, or plant) living, not dead.




Because technically, abortion is not killing. As I pointed out to you, but you refuse to acknowledge.

The point in this is, stop using emotions to back your "arguments". That means nothing here.[/QUOTE]
 
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As I said before, emotions are what drive human nature. They let us know what we would want other people to do to us, and that should tell us things about what we do to them.

That's not how it is supposed to be.
We shouldn't say people are guilty because we feel sorry for the people that had to go through (insert traumatizing situation).
We shouldn't base our decisions on how we feel. That's how murders at gun point happen.
Using that as reason to say what you do, shouldn't be happening.

What you proved was that it was not an "entity." And the definition of "alive" Is basically "Not dead." And no the fetus is not dead until YOU make it that way.

I can tell you didn't read what I posted,
I showed you what the book definition of living thing is, which is:
a living (or once living) entity
And entity:
a thing with distinct and independent existence.

Since a fetus is not an Entity by definition, it cannot be a living entity.
If it isn't a living entity, by definition, it is not a living thing.
 
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ellie

Δ
Staff member
Admin
Ok. I can accept that.
But here's the real ringer. The woman is still ALIVE. The fetus is not. And yes while she will feel the effects of the pregnancy the rest of her life. She will not be dead, unlike the fetus she should chose to abort.


There really is no argument here.
Here is the dictionary definition of "Selfish"

How would the people who care for the fetus "the selfish ones?" They are thinking about the life of something other than their own, yet the mother is not doing that.
Now, by definition, this act would be considered selfish. The real question is "Is it moral for her to do this selfish act." That is what the debate is really about, not whether or not it is selfish.
EDIT: (Also, not to say its KIND to say someone is selfish, but its is the best word I could come up with.)

Human emotion is what drives people. As Ive said before, Laws are made because of "Moral, economical, political or social values" which ultimately stem from human emotion.


See, that baffles me.
I rather LIKE living, thank you very much. Thinking that someone could have denied me that just seems wrong.


True. But, its not for lack of trying. The ability to "know the difference" was taken away from them.


Its not a lack of understanding, its a lack of agreeing.


Key word: YET
She might be alive but her life will be completely different than it was before. The fetus doesn't know any different and if it's aborted it never will. The people wanting to save the fetus are selfish because they don't care about the mother. The mother is already an established person with her own life, and by forcing her to go through with the pregnancy you are completely changing her life for the sake of a POTENTIAL life. I think that's rather selfish. A potential life is not the same as an established one. The ability to know the difference wasn't taken away from them because they didn't have that ability. They might have in the future, but you can't take away what someone doesn't have yet. Every member here could become a mod someday, but that doesn't mean I am denying them something they had by not giving them access to the mod forum or infractions. Plus, somewhere around 1/3 of pregnancies are naturally terminated by the woman's body, often before she even knows she is pregnant. Does that mean a woman's body is a killer and we need to control every aspect of her life to make sure it doesn't kill any fetuses?
 

Maedar

Banned
Ansem, by your definition, sperm and unferitlized eggs could also be considered "living entities with the potential to be human".

Which means NOT using a condom to prevent pregnancy is just as bad as abortion.

Or even worse, a woman who refuses to have sex every time she's fertile to ensure she becomes pregnant is also, by your definition, an accessory to the death of what could potentially become a sentient life.

You see how ridiculous it sound, Ansem? Where will it end? Your definition of "human" and "sentient" is falling kind of flat here.
 

BigLutz

Banned
I am curious Maedar you made such a big deal about the Texas law even insulting Abbott but now that it has been overturned and going into effect until the appeal in January and abortion mills are shutting down today I have not heard a peep from you about it
 

kochoupink

butts lol

LDSman

Well-Known Member
Ansem, by your definition, sperm and unferitlized eggs could also be considered "living entities with the potential to be human".


Neither of those items can develop into a person. A fetus can and will, provided that nothing happens to it or the mother.
 
Neither of those items can develop into a person. A fetus can and will, provided that nothing happens to it or the mother.

Well, sperm is just as much of a person as a fetus is. . .

Also, since your argument is, it can potentially become a person, so can sperm.
Provided it fertilizes an egg.
 

Eterna

Well-Known Member
Neither of those items can develop into a person. A fetus can and will, provided that nothing happens to it or the mother.

A sperm cell has the potential to develop into a person provided that nothing happens to it on the way to the egg.
 

Maedar

Banned

Peter Quill

star-lord
Hi :)

As long as we are talking in stupid hypotheticals, I have one to share:

Kyle and Sarah want to have some consensual sex, but they're still deciding on whether or not to use a condom.

Now we will have two alternate scenarios here. And for the example, if they don't use a condom, their child would be called John Connor.

Lets flash-forward 25 years in each reality. It is now 11/1/2038.

In one reality, Kyle and Sarah don't use the condom and their son, John Connor exists.

In the other reality, on 11/1/2038 John Connor is dead because his parents used a condom. But here is the thing, "IT DOESN'T MATER IF HE WAS KILLED BEFORE HE WAS CONCEIVED OR THE DAY BEFORE, HE IS STILL DEAD."

When you do something that prevents a human from living tomorrow, or in 25 years, it is still KILLING THEM.

Let's stop with these stupid long-winded hypotheticals. If anybody posts another one or discusses them I'll whip out spamming infractions.

If it isn't a person why should I feel bad about killing it? Especially since it is even less complex than a simple house fly.

Ok Eterna I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to do. I feel like you're bright enough to realize that the way you're phrasing your simple house fly argument can intentionally provoke people based simply on how ridiculous it sounds. Like sure it may be scientifically correct but all I see is you undermining them, and I do not understand your debate tactic at all. At least... try and be more constructive or something. If you have anything to say about this please contact me privately, because I'm seriously confused and this just looks like troll/flame-bait.

Taking The Onion seriously?

No. The joke went over your head (although that sort of stuff shouldn't be posted here either :v) Be lucky I'm not infracting you for replying to spam because that's what it essentially is. Everyone else please ignore.
 
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The Admiral

the star of the masquerade
Neither of those items can develop into a person. A fetus can and will, provided that nothing happens to it or the mother.

A fetus is formed of a sperm and an egg. After some period of development, anyway. Yes, they can develop into a person. Not by themselves, yes, but that's a pretty minor stumbling block.
 

Sadib

Time Lord Victorious
How would the people who care for the fetus "the selfish ones?" They are thinking about the life of something other than their own, yet the mother is not doing that.
Now, by definition, this act would be considered selfish. The real question is "Is it moral for her to do this selfish act." That is what the debate is really about, not whether or not it is selfish.
EDIT: (Also, not to say its KIND to say someone is selfish, but its is the best word I could come up with.)
Actually they don't really care about the fetus. If they did, pro-lifers would be more in favor of child support. They are selfish because they want to feel good about themselves by imposing their morals onto others. In a way, pro-lifers and anti-gay activists are the same. Both want something that's not going to affect them because they thin it's the moral high ground.

Ansem, by your definition, sperm and unferitlized eggs could also be considered "living entities with the potential to be human".

Which means NOT using a condom to prevent pregnancy is just as bad as abortion.

Or even worse, a woman who refuses to have sex every time she's fertile to ensure she becomes pregnant is also, by your definition, an accessory to the death of what could potentially become a sentient life.

You see how ridiculous it sound, Ansem? Where will it end? Your definition of "human" and "sentient" is falling kind of flat here.
I suddenly remembered this video. I think it's highly relevant to abortion debates.
 

Bluebird55

Mr. Blue Skyyyy
Morally? No to abortion because it's technically murder.

Same with euphenasia (I forgot how to spell it, ok?), it should be allowed because you're ending the suffering of the person who has a poor sanctity of life, so long as they consent to it.

But, that's politics and that lot, so I'm going to stay away from this discussion because I don't want to cause any upset, I'm sorry.
 
Morally? No to abortion because it's technically murder.

Well, with all technicality, no it isn't murder.
Technically, it's quite the opposite.
 

Maedar

Banned
What Mario is saying is, it's easy to say, "this is wrong, this is bad, this should be outlawed", so long as outlawing it does not hinder YOU at all.

You may notice that the people who argue the loudest for overturning Roe v Wade are men? Republicans speak of the "overwhelming supported" among women they have on this issue, but honestly, I have yet to see it.
 

BigLutz

Banned
What Mario is saying is, it's easy to say, "this is wrong, this is bad, this should be outlawed", so long as outlawing it does not hinder YOU at all.

You may notice that the people who argue the loudest for overturning Roe v Wade are men? Republicans speak of the "overwhelming supported" among women they have on this issue, but honestly, I have yet to see it.

You do know Roe of Roe v Wade has argued vehemently for the overturning of the law.
 
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