Abortion - Under what circumstances should it be allowed?

[LDSman]

What weasal words?

http://www.christianpost.com/news/a...e-in-the-hobby-lobby-case-lawyer-says-116790/

Hobby Lobby refused to provide coverage for two types of IUDs and for Plan B and EllaOne, the morning-after and week-after pills, respectively.

Correcting popular misconceptions, Keim emphasized that the Greens are not Catholic, but Protestant, and said they happily provide 16 of the 20 different types of contraceptives in the mandate – just not the four drugs and devices that can allegedly cause abortions.

Again, HL still covers 16 other bc items and have done so for years.

 

[BJPalmer85]

It's just not that simple see there is a law called the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993 which is partially the reason why religious exemptions were added for religious organizations to Obamacare. But because those exemptions were added it shows that birth control access is not a overwhelming need that the government must address as they are already giving out exemptions. So at that point companies like Hobby Lobby can go "hey we don't believe in giving out X pill or pills we want to be exempted as it violates our religion" at which point the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993 comes back in and they are allowed out of it. It really is a mess and I am not sure if I explained it well enough except Hobby Lobby and others are saying "they get exempted why shouldn't we".

From the looks of it the Supreme Court agrees with Hobby Lobby and will probably vote 5 - 4 or 6 - 3 for them

that is dumb. if it cant be fair and even for everyone than it shouldnt exist. that was the whole damn point of Obamacare

B

 

[BigLutz]

that is dumb. if it cant be fair and even for everyone than it shouldnt exist. that was the whole damn point of Obamacare

B

Which is why Hobby Lobby is suing to get the same religious exemption, thus making it fair for everyone.

 

[BJPalmer85]

Which is why Hobby Lobby is suing to get the same religious exemption, thus making it fair for everyone.

It is not fair for everyone if some people get exemptions and others don't.

B

 

[BigLutz]

It is not fair for everyone if some people get exemptions and others don't.

B

Again that is why Hobby Lobby is in court to have exemptions applied to all

 

[John Madden]

What weasal words?

saying "are said to cause abortions"

without saying who actually says that

is a goddamn litany of weasel words.

and ignoring the fact that the manufacturers of all four of those types of birth control have tested whether they're abortifacients and found that they are completely ineffective in that regard - as i just said, RU-486 is the only FDA-approved drug that works like that and it's not part of the contraception mandate, just like the Hyde Amendment was attached to the original ACA, just like everyone in the goddamn government bends over backwards for the whims of pro-lifers and still gets tripe like this court case for it

which kind of invalidates the ENTIRE POINT of Hobby Lobby asking for an exemption

It is not fair for everyone if some people get exemptions and others don't.

B

it's also not fair for everyone if Hobby Lobby gets an exemption because of a factually invalid objection, you should probably be mentioning that to get it through Lutz's thick skull

 

[jireh the provider]

Though I am wondering why healthcare is against Christianity.Those people are simply empty-brained.

Good question I must say. If you look on Philippines stand on Abortion and Healthcare (called the RH Bill vs Life debate [which lasted for more than 10 years] politically and socially), it's greatly intense in that country like a great boiling of a love/hate relationship between the devout Catholics and the modern and rich people. even though it is now promoted here, there is still a gaping divide.

In my stand, three egos of mine say three different answers.

1. Analytic Ego: "For ones, we may need this to control our overpopulation issue instead of committing mass genocide on the poor people all over Manila (the country's capital) with a few from the other regions. If it's not enough, maybe send some of the lower class to migration to Japan to remedy Japan's under-population instead. If the given education isn't enough to creating smarter and more civilized Filipino members of the community. The results could vary."

2. Religious Ego: "For me, killing an innocent life is simply absurd when you have the capability to raise it. But if you just could not do so, let someone else raise it if you are out of choices. Just learn to have tolerance and control over sexual urges whenever possible."

3. Critic Ego: "For me, I promote this all the way since I'm against the Filipino lower class ideology that to survive in today's world is to have more children so that they can move themselves out of poverty. Well guess what? They only made it worse for themselves and become poorer in the end! More children does not equal escape to poverty. It means more mouths to feed and even bigger family issues! It could work if you are o the province with farms. But anywhere else, just no because a lot of the people in this country lack knowledge about this. Not to mention, they are conservative for most Filipinos while they blindly deny other rational ideas in general"

But for me, in the abortion case, I should be both the first and the third ego. But since neutrality is allowed in here (Sad. I'd rather be neutral), I'll stick with the Analytic ego.

 

[BigLutz]

Continuing this from the Homosexual thread..

That's a double standard. Men get pills for their sperm but not women?

The Pills are meant to help pregnancy instead of stopping it so it is a poor comparison.

What about those who needs birth control to prevent Ovarian cancer? It shows that they are using the religious freedom excuse to deny that type of health care to its female workers.

Last time I checked Birth Control was fairly cheap to buy, are you suggesting the only way they can buy it is through their insurance plan?

 

[John Madden]

man, it's too bad i'm on your ignore list so i can't actually correct any of these gaping, massive misconceptions you're posting

Last time I checked Birth Control was fairly cheap to buy

you probably checked this within an insurance plan. check its cost without insurance and this time, pretend you don't make >$75,000 and you've actually got a budget you have to stay within

 

[ellie]

yeah no. i went through about a year switching forms of bc to try and find one that didn't make my periods and anemia even worse, and when i wanted to try a pill that wasn't covered by my insurance it was about $75 for a months' worth. that is not "fairly cheap" by most people's standards, and even then, i can think of a hell of a lot of other things i would rather spend that money on. with an insurance plan they ranged about $7 to $20 depending on the type.

 

[BigLutz]

yeah no. i went through about a year switching forms of bc to try and find one that didn't make my periods and anemia even worse, and when i wanted to try a pill that wasn't covered by my insurance it was about $75 for a months' worth. that is not "fairly cheap" by most people's standards, and even then, i can think of a hell of a lot of other things i would rather spend that money on. with an insurance plan they ranged about $7 to $20 depending on the type.

Generic Contraceptive Pills can run as low as 9 Dollars a month with out insurance coverage. I would consider that as being "fairly cheap"

CNSNews.com confirmed, however, that the Target store at 3100 14th St., NW, in Washington, D.C., which is 3 miles from the Georgetown Law campus, offers Tri-Sprintec, the generic form of the birth-control pill Ortho Tri-Cyclen. Target sells a month’s supply of this birth control pill for just $9 to individuals without health insurance coverage for the pills.

A CVS pharmacy only two blocks from the Georgetown Law campus also sells a month’s supply of the same generic birth control pills for $33.

Tri-Sprintec is an FDA-approved prescription drug and is the generic version of Ortho Tri-Cyclen. The Physician’s Desk Reference (PDR) says it is for: “Prevention of pregnancy.” It is also decrease the risk of ovarian or endometrial cancer and, for some women, to fight acne.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/sandra-fluke-says-she-didnt-know-target-sells-birth-control-pills-9

 

[ellie]

and some methods of birth control don't work for everyone. notice how i said i was trying different ones that didnt make my health problems worse. i tried the exact one listed on their website (from target too) and let's just say it wasn't a very fun couple of months. messing with hormones is very delicate and you don't have to look very far to find stories of women gaining a ton of weight, having migraines, losing dangerous amounts of blood with their periods, having horrible mood swings, or other nasty side effects from the wrong kind of birth control. that is also a major reason why many women go for the IUD, which hobby lobby is trying to get out of because of that ridiculous false abortion claim, because it administers a much lower dose of hormones (since it is closer to the site where they are needed and does not need to go through the digestive system) and therefore is less likely to have as many bad side effects.

 

[BigLutz]

and some methods of birth control don't work for everyone. notice how i said i was trying different ones that didnt make my health problems worse. i tried the exact one listed on their website (from target too) and let's just say it wasn't a very fun couple of months. messing with hormones is very delicate and you don't have to look very far to find stories of women gaining a ton of weight, having migraines, losing dangerous amounts of blood with their periods, having horrible mood swings, or other nasty side effects from the wrong kind of birth control.

I do realize that some women need special types of birth control, but for pure generics it seems as if they are pretty cheap. Mind you IUDs run between $500 and $1,000 dollars according to Planned Parenthood's website but they also last 12 years. If you were to pay $9 a month for a generic pill for 12 years straight you would be paying nearly 1,300s meaning IUDs are in the long run cheaper even with out insurance.

that is also a major reason why many women go for the IUD, which hobby lobby is trying to get out of because of that ridiculous false abortion claim, because it administers a much lower dose of hormones (since it is closer to the site where they are needed and does not need to go through the digestive system) and therefore is less likely to have as many bad side effects.

"ACOG representatives told me in an email that copper IUDs mostly work before implantation occurs—copper is toxic to sperm and kills it before it gets to the egg.

But the copper IUD can also be used as emergency contraception if it’s inserted up to five days after unprotected sex (and then simply left in to serve as longer-term birth control). And when used in that way, the copper-laden environment might also prevent the fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. It might. We just don’t know. The dance of the egg, the IUD, and its molecules changes on a case-by-case and whoopee-by-whoopee basis.

And that’s the part Hobby Lobby takes issue with: They think that “sperm + egg = future baby,” so the fertilized egg’s potential destruction by the IUD is unacceptable."

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...-lobby-thinks-iuds-are-like-abortions/284382/

Seems Hobby Lobby's case about IUDs is not so "ridiculously false" if they believe that fertilization is the beginning of life.

 

[John Madden]

Seems Hobby Lobby's case about IUDs is not so "ridiculously false" if they believe that fertilization is the beginning of life.

taking this at face value, rather than their concept of IUDs being abortifacients definitely not being based on a belief in line with what's been concluded by [close to] the entire medical community...

of course, it's just that the SCOTUS is going to take issue with the concept that they need to become the sole arbiters of what beliefs will merit reilgious exemptions, something a ruling in favor of hobby lobby would 100% definitely burden them with

 

[bobjr]

Seems Hobby Lobby's case about IUDs is not so "ridiculously false" if they believe that fertilization is the beginning of life.

What do you know, Hobby Lobby takes the side that science disagrees with and is wrong.

 

[BigLutz]

What do you know, Hobby Lobby takes the side that science disagrees with and is wrong.

We will see what the Supreme Court decides when it comes to what Hobby Lobby is required to do or not.

 

[John Madden]

We will see what the Supreme Court decides when it comes to what Hobby Lobby is required to do or not.

well, sogeking will see, at least. if this goes anything like the last several cases related to the ACA (and it very probably will, for reasons i've already articulated several times) we'll be lucky if you acknowledge the ruling's existence by year's end

 

[ellie]

actually MOST women need to fiddle around with it before they find one that works. every woman i have talked to about birth control had to do the same thing i did to find one that worked for her. i'm sure it works for a few lucky women in which case good for them, but most of us aren't that lucky and would be much better off with a different birth control if they could afford it. like i said, hormones are a very complex thing as most science classes will tell you, and you are never going to have a one size fits all option for it. that's why so many different ones exist in the first place.

as for it being cheaper in the long run, yes, that's true (though hormonal ones only last 5 years, copper are 12). but lots of people can't afford to drop $1000 in one instant even if it would save them money in the long run. that's part of living paycheck to paycheck or otherwise on a very limited budget. i would love to get a IUD if i could simply for the fact that i wouldnt have to remember to take pills and/or be at the mercy of GI issues, but i simply can't afford to shell out $500+ right now.



it is false. for two reasons, which you would see if you actually read the article you linked yourself. 1. they don't actually KNOW that it prevents a fertilized egg from implanting. sperm can live for up to 5 days in the uterus anyway, so the copper IUD being able to be an emergency contraceptive doesn't prove that. there have been absolutely no studies showing conclusively that EC/IUD does in fact cause the uterine lining to reject a fertilized egg. 2. the medical definition of conception is a fertilized egg attaching to the uterine wall. hobby lobby and other pro-life groups are trying to change the definiton to fit their ideology. i'll stick with medical professionals who actually know what they are talking about.

 

[BigLutz]

2. the medical definition of conception is a fertilized egg attaching to the uterine wall. hobby lobby and other pro-life groups are trying to change the definiton to fit their ideology. i'll stick with medical professionals who actually know what they are talking about.

That's the thing, their ideology does not need to confirm with whatever the medical definition at the moment is, you can stick with the medical professionals but at the end of the day if the Supreme Court believes it is a attack on their beliefs to not allow them to get out of it like the law allows other religious organizations to do, then it doesn't matter what medical professionals say.

 

[John Madden]

That's the thing, their ideology does not need to confirm with whatever the medical definition at the moment is, you can stick with the medical professionals but at the end of the day if the Supreme Court believes it is a attack on their beliefs to not allow them to get out of it like the law allows other religious organizations to do, then it doesn't matter what medical professionals say.

pretty sure it's going to matter a lot what medical professionals say for the determination of merit in religious exemptions to a medical procedure

for reasons i don't think i need to expand upon because really, it's blatantly ****ing obvious