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About battle against Wikstrom

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Almighty Zard

He has returned.
It can happen but that wouldn't make any sense. Imagine Ash uses Scraggy to beat Malva's Houndoom. That makes zero sense.

Your right that scenario makes no sense.

this however does because we're dealing with two pokemon who literally embody the concepts of a shield and sword.

Look if Wikstrom was using any other pokemon, especially his Scizor which can mega evolve, then Farfetch'd would stand no chance, heck it needs to evolve as is for the chance to even be a thing, but we all know that when Aegislash is in attack mode it can't take hits to save it's life, all it takes is one good attack to knock it out, considering that it's also a double edged sword literally due to how it's ability works.

Also, if Farfetch'd is revealed to have scrappy, then once it becomes Sirfetch'd one good meteor assault is all it's going to need to knock out Aegislash, even if doesn't two of it's attacks are dark based and one is a high crit move anyway.

I don't like the idea of newbies taking on the elite 4 either, but they given us a scenario where it's possible due to the concepts (abilities, potential in Far/sirfetch'ds case) and pokemon involved (Again these two pokemon involve swords and shields and are both associated with knights), the possibility is within reason for it to happen as opposed to the random scenario you've given.

Ash has to start somewhere anyway, if we're supposed to believe he can take on Leon then he needs to start beating high caliber trainers to put faith in he call pull that off.

If you don't want to accept it then that's fine, I tried to explain in a reasonable way at least.
 
In the opening, Iris and Gary appear after Wikstrom, so there is no option for them to appear earlier than him
I do agree but what I said was PWC battle not non-PWC battle appearance.

Wikstorm first appearance do not seem to be PWC battle.
Same, the only member of current team aside from Pikachu that should be able to beat Aegislash level would be Lucario( maybe Mega if Ash gets it)
With current moveset, what move can Lucario use against ghost-type Aegislash?

Maybe they will reveal that Ash's Sirfetch'd have Scrappy ability.
Also, if Farfetch'd is revealed to have scrappy, then once it becomes Sirfetch'd one good meteor assault is all it's going to need to knock out Aegislash
Maybe, Wikstorm might even allow free hit just to check the ability.
 
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Leonhart

Imagineer
Almighty Zard said:
Ash has to start somewhere anyway, if we're supposed to believe he can take on Leon then he needs to start beating high caliber trainers to put faith in he call pull that off.

I realize that he's going to have to beat members of the Four Heavenly Kings eventually, I just don't think he's done anything thus far in this series to justify him beating Gampi. Maybe if he were using Pikachu to beat Gampi's ace I would understand, but if it's going to come down to him using Kamonegi/Negigaknight last, then to me it wouldn't be realistic.
 

Aryash Bajaj

Say I'm fat again!
Your right that scenario makes no sense.

this however does because we're dealing with two pokemon who literally embody the concepts of a shield and sword.

Look if Wikstrom was using any other pokemon, especially his Scizor which can mega evolve, then Farfetch'd would stand no chance, heck it needs to evolve as is for the chance to even be a thing, but we all know that when Aegislash is in attack mode it can't take hits to save it's life, all it takes is one good attack to knock it out, considering that it's also a double edged sword literally due to how it's ability works.

Also, if Farfetch'd is revealed to have scrappy, then once it becomes Sirfetch'd one good meteor assault is all it's going to need to knock out Aegislash, even if doesn't two of it's attacks are dark based and one is a high crit move anyway.

I don't like the idea of newbies taking on the elite 4 either, but they given us a scenario where it's possible due to the concepts (abilities, potential in Far/sirfetch'ds case) and pokemon involved (Again these two pokemon involve swords and shields and are both associated with knights), the possibility is within reason for it to happen as opposed to the random scenario you've given.

Ash has to start somewhere anyway, if we're supposed to believe he can take on Leon then he needs to start beating high caliber trainers to put faith in he call pull that off.

If you don't want to accept it then that's fine, I tried to explain in a reasonable way at least.

I wouldn't particularly depend on Aegislash's frailness to justify Farfetch'd's hypothetical victory. The only Aegislash in battle we have seen was Sawyer's and we don't know what Sawyer even trained it for. Sawyer seemed to rely on King Shield for protection so I don't think he will train his defense capacities so much. Wikistrom on the other hand is a renowned trainer and would make sure to train his Pokemon in the weak points.
 

Almighty Zard

He has returned.
I realize that he's going to have to beat members of the Four Heavenly Kings eventually, I just don't think he's done anything thus far in this series to justify him beating Gampi.

Has Go earned the right to capture legendaries? Last I checked he caught one by technicality, and almost got Zapdos, possibly even going for suicune soon.

Maybe if he were using Pikachu to beat Gampi's ace I would understand, but if it's going to come down to him using Kamonegi/Negigaknight last, then to me it wouldn't be realistic.

Unless Aegislash is outright stated to be wikstrom's ace when he appears then I don't care, personally i believe his ace is that mega scizor he owns

I wouldn't particularly depend on Aegislash's frailness to justify Farfetch'd's hypothetical victory. The only Aegislash in battle we have seen was Sawyer's and we don't know what Sawyer even trained it for. Sawyer seemed to rely on King Shield for protection so I don't think he will train his defense capacities so much. Wikistrom on the other hand is a renowned trainer and would make sure to train his Pokemon in the weak points.

Makes sense in reflecting with the games, in the fight with Pikachu when it's shield got blocked by a peice of debris preventing it from getting in, Pikachu dropped it pretty fast with a thunderbolt.

The circumstances of this fight give Ash a chance, a minimal one yes but that's all i'm trying to say here.
 

CMButch

Kanto is love. Kanto is life.
Your right that scenario makes no sense.

this however does because we're dealing with two pokemon who literally embody the concepts of a shield and sword.

Look if Wikstrom was using any other pokemon, especially his Scizor which can mega evolve, then Farfetch'd would stand no chance, heck it needs to evolve as is for the chance to even be a thing, but we all know that when Aegislash is in attack mode it can't take hits to save it's life, all it takes is one good attack to knock it out, considering that it's also a double edged sword literally due to how it's ability works.

Also, if Farfetch'd is revealed to have scrappy, then once it becomes Sirfetch'd one good meteor assault is all it's going to need to knock out Aegislash, even if doesn't two of it's attacks are dark based and one is a high crit move anyway.

I don't like the idea of newbies taking on the elite 4 either, but they given us a scenario where it's possible due to the concepts (abilities, potential in Far/sirfetch'ds case) and pokemon involved (Again these two pokemon involve swords and shields and are both associated with knights), the possibility is within reason for it to happen as opposed to the random scenario you've given.

Ash has to start somewhere anyway, if we're supposed to believe he can take on Leon then he needs to start beating high caliber trainers to put faith in he call pull that off.

If you don't want to accept it then that's fine, I tried to explain in a reasonable way at least.
I understand what you are saying but problem is that still Aegislash is super strong. It also makes no sense that if Aegislash is his main battler too that Aegislash is gym level( no holding back). I think he should be at least like Brandon's Duclops level or his Regice level.And as I said it makes no sense that Farfetch'd beats Regice or Dusclops as of now. Heck even in the end of saga. Ash's Charizard who was in training and one of his strongest Pokemon even back than struggled with Dusclops and Sirfetch'd would beat it? Make no sense.We will see. I am still holding thought that Aegislash is not his main battler like Wik has 10 Pokemon and sword is like 7th or 8th weaker mon.

It is inevitable that very likely Ash will battle more E4 in future. But that doesnt mean he will use his current team.Maybe he will use just Pikachu... This makes perfect time for Ash to use reserves since his reserves make more sense to battle E4 than his current team.Plus we all wanna see Ash's older Pokemon. We will get old companions so I think it is kinda "confirmed" old Pokemon are back. Alola mons returned for 1 episode we will likely get Oak mons.
 
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ImBeVillain

No more six members
To be clear, Ash is ranked 381st, that doesn't make him the weakest trainer who can lose with E4 member lol - he'll have to face even tougher opponents soon. There are over 20 trainers who are considered the elite four - they may be in different places on the ranking. Except for Leon, the case of regional champions is also similar (I assume that they will be in the Master Class and in the highest places of the Hyper Class). So he will have to beat these people too. This is the Pokemon World Championship - do you think writers are concerned with only 8 regions? They can also debut a new region and new characters right before the end of Journeys adventure :)
Lost the first fight and then won? Huh? And is this supposed to apply to everyone? I can't imagine it like that, it's like having to fight 30 legendaries Pokémon. But in Journeys everything has changed, many curses have been broken, especially for Ash.
CMButch, don't forget that Rinto was proposing Ash to train even harder Farfetch'd and we will see this effect of hard training in the next match against Wikstrom.
Rinto was quite strong at E4 level, you know that?

I remember - the best part was that before episode 25 everyone thought Korrina would win the fight against Ash, because she is "strong" because she has a "mega evolution" and Dragonite handled her nicely anyway.
I assume that this is a similar situation before the fight with Wikstrom.

I have no doubt that Farfetch'd will become even stronger than in Episode 51 after special training, after losing the fight to Rinto.
 

ImBeVillain

No more six members
@ImBeVillain I know that: what does that have to do with anything lol?

Without training he won't win with the E4 trainers, and you wrote about it before, he shouldn't win with him because Farfetch'd is still "weak". Lucario would win with him? Come on :) All his moves are very useless against ghost pokemon. If he had a dark move, he would probably have managed to win, and Farfetch'd is the only pokemon that has dark moves in his current team. Pikachu from Aegislash? That would be okay, but I doubt it would be a similar rerun with Sawyer. Ash is not so stupid as to underestimate training - he will definitely beat the E4 trainer, even for the first time. There are other E4 traineers that he can't be sure of winning at his Pokemon's current strength (Lance, Cynthia etc).
 

ImBeVillain

No more six members
If Ash deafats Wisktorm or any E4 memeber, I want it to be using his older Pokemon and not using newly caught Pokemon.

In Journeys, it doesn't work like that when the writers forcefully refuse to bring back old pokemons. Charizard will definitely not come back because Leon owns one and the writers will not give more than one. Krookodile is also unlikely to return if Goh tries to evolve Sandile into this Pokemon. Snorlax was in the second and fifth episode, there is no chance of Ash's Snorlax coming back. I would like to list further reasons that strong Pokemon cannot return. I prefer to watch Ash's new team develop, rather than some old pokemon come back early. Better that he take old pokemon only when he is above the twentieth place in the PWC ranking.
 

CMButch

Kanto is love. Kanto is life.
Without training he won't win with the E4 trainers, and you wrote about it before, he shouldn't win with him because Farfetch'd is still "weak". Lucario would win with him? Come on :) All his moves are very useless against ghost pokemon. If he had a dark move, he would probably have managed to win, and Farfetch'd is the only pokemon that has dark moves in his current team. Pikachu from Aegislash? That would be okay, but I doubt it would be a similar rerun with Sawyer. Ash is not so stupid as to underestimate training - he will definitely beat the E4 trainer, even for the first time. There are other E4 traineers that he can't be sure of winning at his Pokemon's current strength (Lance, Cynthia etc).
Special trainings are done before even by Ash. Gliscor,Charizard also were going through special trainings for months or years.. Gliscor despite going through that in DP he wouldn't beat E4 in the end of DP. Charizard in the end of Johto saga despite being gone for 3 years because of ST still is not E4 level. Why would Sirfetch'd or Farfetch'd be E4 level in the end of this saga? Equality for everyone. If non aces, like Farfetch'd ,would take years like Gliscor,Snorlax,Bulbasaur since they should be E4 by now, to beat E4 level Pokemon:It should take Farfetch'd too.Why is Farfetch'd better than 70 Pokemon Ash has caught? He is not ace nor he has BS power up since he is not an ace.Lucario is an ace and he will probably have Aura boosted power so he should be E4 level by the end of saga since if Greninja can be so with that Lucario can be too. As you notice Ash's strongest Pokemon are all aces: Greninja,Pikachu, Sceptile,Incineroar,Charizard and Infernape.So logically only Lucario should be there probably replacing like Incineroar.I didn't mean Lucario as it is now lol. I meant Lucario with moveset that works or against other similarly leveled Pokemon. He will beat them, but I hope that he does that with reserves that actually deserve to be seen and win against E4. Hopefully Greninja and Primeape return.
I like progression of non BS aces and non aces to be like 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 which showed in past and it was consistent. Problem is that Farfetch'd could be like 1 2 and then skip 3 4 5 etc to 9 10 in this episode with Wik.
 
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CMButch

Kanto is love. Kanto is life.
In Journeys, it doesn't work like that when the writers forcefully refuse to bring back old pokemons. Charizard will definitely not come back because Leon owns one and the writers will not give more than one. Krookodile is also unlikely to return if Goh tries to evolve Sandile into this Pokemon. Snorlax was in the second and fifth episode, there is no chance of Ash's Snorlax coming back. I would like to list further reasons that strong Pokemon cannot return. I prefer to watch Ash's new team develop, rather than some old pokemon come back early. Better that he take old pokemon only when he is above the twentieth place in the PWC ranking.
Sorry for double. Writers made Alola mons return even if it is 1 episode. Very likely Ash's other Pokemon will return. Just because Leon has Charizard that means nothing. That would be same if Kukui had Incineroar, Ash won't have one...oh wait. Goh having Pokemon also don't mean anything. List other reasons? I am curious to see what they are.. Ash's new Pokemon can develop since Ash battling E4 would be several episodes on 140+ or even more episodes( this saga could be 4 years: so 190 episodes).I mean seeing how Farfetch'd took 20 episodes to show development it is not like they are trying to develop his Pokemon on screen that much.So one Pokemon can return to battle E4 since they will likely be 1 on 1.
 

Red and Blue

Well-Known Member
So Wikstrom is showing up in episode 56. Guess we will find out if Ash can defeat an E4 member soon enough
 

DuskAstral

Well-Known Member
So Wikstrom is showing up in episode 56. Guess we will find out if Ash can defeat an E4 member soon enough
Where was it confirmed that Wikstrom will appear in episode 56? Only titles up to the 55th episode are known (including the episode itself).
 
Lol no, he caught Eternatus because wolves weakened it so much.
That doesn't matter much. In the first Hoenn episode he couldn't even call out an attack. In less than 50 episodes he fought alongside Ash. Farfetch'd' can achieve a lot at this pace.
Hahahhahah no. It doesn't work like that. Based on your logic Farfetch'd is stronger than DL, Incineroar,Charizard. Or his SM Pokemon are stronger than A-G, Infernape, Sceptile, Charizard, his Buizel since he's from DP is stronger than Charizard, Sceptile, Staraptor too. Then we have Goodra, Noivern being stronger than Charizard , Sceptile, I could go on. So this is wrong. Each of Ash's Pokemon have different power and uses different techniques and strategies. It's very wrong to say that all of Ash's Pokemon are equal in some series or say that all of his Pokemon are stronger than all Pokemon he used before. Imagine saying Rowlet, Buizel, Staraptor, Noivern,Farfetch'd etc etc are stronger than Greninja, Sceptile, Swellow, Krookodile, Incineroar etc.
I think you misunderstood me. What I meant was Ash has reached a point where he can draw out his Pokemon's power better. I am not saying Ash-Greninja or Charizard is weaker than current team member. It's just that this Ash is better kind of like AG Ash being better than OS Ash. If those old Pokemon return then they would accomplish better feats under this Ash.

He can battle them and win with Pikachu or even Lucario. Just because Pikachu/Lucario win that doesn't mean Farfetch'd magically becomes that level.
No, his current team except Pikachu and Lucario shouldn't be stronger than E4 nor close to that because of other Pokemon's disrespect( which I responded why what you said about current team being stronger than Ash's older Pokemon make 0 sense) nor that makes anywhere much as sense unless it's a big time skip. Heck you can see that with Pikachu: Pikachu only would be able to take E4 level per say in XY , so it took him like over 15 years to do that, why would current Pokemon do it in a year... Lmao.
Not to mention that since we get Gary, Iris there's high chance Ash's older Pokemon return and if they do, they should battle E4 and Champions and not current team. Because, since DP they trained really hard and they have time and experience advantage thus that means power advantage over current team.(Charizard, Infernape, Sceptile, Snorlax, Gliscor, Swellow, Corphish) etc.
If they don't return we will likely get 1 on 1 with E4 so Pikachu will be used( or even Lucario). I am still pretty sure Aegislash until proven otherwise: is holding back against Farfetch'd or he's Wikstorm's non main battler Pokemon that WIkstorm is using against weaker opponents.
I am not disrespecting any of the old Pokemon. In fact you are disrespecting Ash's current team by saying only Lucario can become an ace. All this boost stuff is fine but a strong Pokemon doesn't need these to be strong, kind of like Flint's Infernape. I think I already answered why his current Pokemon can perform better.

In Cynthia vs Aaron match, her Gastrodon took out two of Aaron's Pokemon. If Ash is looking forward to beat Leon then his whole team should also be able to match Leon's team which is most likely stronger than Cynthia's team. Calling old Pokemon is fine but his current team can't be fooling around while he calls old mons back for battle. I don't think he will call reserves though.
 

CMButch

Kanto is love. Kanto is life.
That doesn't matter much. In the first Hoenn episode he couldn't even call out an attack. In less than 50 episodes he fought alongside Ash. Farfetch'd' can achieve a lot at this pace.
I was responding to legendary argument but to your Go's attack argument, that basically happened with other people like some rivals and even companions like May or Dawn who struggled to get first Pokemon but by episode 50 Dawn was fighting in tournament and getting to finale. May IIRC got her first ribbon in episode 50.

I think you misunderstood me. What I meant was Ash has reached a point where he can draw out his Pokemon's power better. I am not saying Ash-Greninja or Charizard is weaker than current team member. It's just that this Ash is better kind of like AG Ash being better than OS Ash. If those old Pokemon return then they would accomplish better feats under this Ash.
I se,e you probably worded it like to seem that every Pokemon he catches in future is automatically stronger than older Pokemon. Of course this Ash is better than AG Ash but Pokemon's power is individual. Yes, older Pokemon are obviously stronger but if they trained. Example if Torkoal from DP never trained for all those years even 30 year old hypothetical Ash if he uses Torkoal, Torkoal wouldn't be stronger than he was in DP since he was lazy, goofing around etc. Yes, 30 yo Ash would probably use that laziness as advantage as strategy unlike DP Ash but power wise Torkoal would be same.


I am not disrespecting any of the old Pokemon. In fact you are disrespecting Ash's current team by saying only Lucario can become an ace. All this boost stuff is fine but a strong Pokemon doesn't need these to be strong, kind of like Flint's Infernape. I think I already answered why his current Pokemon can perform better.
How am I disrespecting? It's already set in stone that Lucario is an ace.You do know that every series has 1 ace except SM and BW which had 2 aces? I don't understand that this is disrespect. Flint's Infernape is an ace, though. It doesn't need boost yes, I mean Ash's Pokemon proved it with Charizard, Pikachu, Snorlax, Sceptile but problem is those Pokemon had time to get there where they are. Charizard OS- BW. Pikachu OS-SM, Sceptile AG-DP, Snorlax OS - BF/DP. Lucario would obviously be in Top 6( like replacing Incineroar) without a boost but for him to be on A-G level or Pikachu by end of PJ he needs Aura boost( like that Aura boost) like that A-G boost.
BTW about disrespecting. I would be disrespecting if I said his current Pokemon would be gym level by end of PJ. No. His current team except Lucario could easily be like between Top 7-8 to Top 15-16 by end of PJ saga( like on level of some Frontier Brains). Dragonite probably be second strongest in current team. Sirfetch'd would be third. My point is that make no sense that even by end of PJ that his current team( except Pikachu and Lucario) comes in Top 6 like above A-G, Charizard, Sceptile, Incineroar, Infernape and they're not aces , they had less time in training and they don't have BS power ups.

In Cynthia vs Aaron match, her Gastrodon took out two of Aaron's Pokemon. If Ash is looking forward to beat Leon then his whole team should also be able to match Leon's team which is most likely stronger than Cynthia's team. Calling old Pokemon is fine but his current team can't be fooling around while he calls old mons back for battle. I don't think he will call reserves though.
That's my point, Gastrodon is not ace( like Aegislash) and he/she took out 2 non aces of probably weakest Sinnoh E4. Point is that E4 non aces( like Champion's) are not weak. That's why Aegislash is wild card: it could be nerfed it could have soft spot like Shadow said that it would go down no matter how powerful it is( in Blade form), it could hold back, it could be his weaker mon outside his party. His team to match Leon's team is why Ash has to call reserves: Charizard, Greninja to return, Sceptile, Infernape, maybe Snorlax. But also don't forget that Leon vs Ash will probably be 1 on 1: Charizard vs Pikachu.
 
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