After SUMO have you feelings towards BW changed?

[Satoshi & Touko]

*sighs* I think I've said it before, but I'll say it again: It saddens me to know how much value is placed on Ash's competence, "badassery", and whatnot when it comes to the enjoyability of a series. Especially when, what with where we are today, it just isn't worth it to continue to be so emotionally invested in Ash.

 

[AznKei]

How would you know how awful a series was if you only watched 15 out of 141 episodes exactly? Or did you just see Pikachu lose to Snivy (which was explained) and turned the TV off?

Maybe he doesn't see the badass Ash that he's familiar from XY in SM & BW. He's not alone in this, I've seen the fans being divided between those 3 series & earlier about how Ash is being portrayed.

As for me, I didn't watch much of BW. But with XY & SM so far, it seems that the earlier episodes were better than the latter episodes imo, despite the different themes, vibes & so on.

 

[AshxSatoshi]

Maybe he doesn't see the badass Ash that he's familiar from XY in SM & BW. He's not alone in this, I've seen the fans being divided between those 3 series & earlier about how Ash is being portrayed.

As for me, I didn't watch much of BW. But with XY & SM so far, it seems that the earlier episodes were better than the latter episodes imo, despite the different themes, vibes & so on.

How can you be familiar with a certain Ash that didn’t exist before? Best Wishes took place before XY. People watch the series for other characters than Ash and it’s pretty telling how unless Ash is acting like a “bad ass” (which he never did OS-BF but whatever) he and the series are condemned. For example it pains me how much SM is giving Ash so much attention but I still will say I enjoy the fillers and have been loving Lillie’s development. It’s not always black and white (pun intended) and you can like series without enjoying a character.

 

[AznKei]

How can you be familiar with a certain Ash that didn’t exist before? Best Wishes took place before XY. People watch the series for other characters than Ash and it’s pretty telling how unless Ash is acting like a “bad ass” (which he never did OS-BF but whatever) he and the series are condemned.

Well, I'm stating what people were saying on YouTube in which I watch the current episodes. It seems that they value Ash's competency alot for their overall reception of the series.

To me, I don't really care about Ash, I care about the companions, so as far the series issues are concerned, I feel XY & SM the same way. It just that I criticize less on SM, because I already being through what I like/dislike about the show.

 

[keepitsimple]

How would you know how awful a series was if you only watched 15 out of 141 episodes exactly? I’mnot going to consider your “major episode” statement because that’s subjective but I’m assuming that’s Gymbattles and probably the league.

He watched more than 15. He saw 15 episodes + all of the "major episodes" (which I assume to mean gyms, tournaments, captures and evolutions). Ignoring that he watched those doesn't mean he didn't.

Anyway I wasn't a fan of BW and I'm still not, even if I do think it's overly hated

 

[Power Up]

*sighs* I think I've said it before, but I'll say it again: It saddens me to know how much value is placed on Ash's competence, "badassery", and whatnot when it comes to the enjoyability of a series. Especially when, what with where we are today, it just isn't worth it to continue to be so emotionally invested in Ash.

I’d take the edgiest version of Ash over this SM Ash ever single time

There is so much you can do with an edgy Ash.

How is enjoyable to see a character screw up and act all immature?

The depression arc for me and the entirety of XYZ and the XY specials just showcase what you can do with a mature Pokemon

Mature Pokemon is not a bad thing and it could be the best thing for the Pokemon anime if they decide to switch gears.

 

[AshxSatoshi]

He watched more than 15. He saw 15 episodes + all of the "major episodes" (which I assume to mean gyms, tournaments, captures and evolutions). Ignoring that he watched those doesn't mean he didn't.

Anyway I wasn't a fan of BW and I'm still not, even if I do think it's overly hated

Again tournaments, captures and evolutions could be subjective to some people about being major. What about episodes focusing on Iris and Cilan? Episodes focusing on Bianca? What about the Team Plasma arc? Like I said “major” episodes is a vague term and if he could give clarification that would be swell.

 

[MidnightMelody]

My issue with changing Ash is it's very stupid to do so. I'm not saying make him a badass. Just don't make him childlike (Yes I get he is but he had a progression prior to BW)
At least with BW it still felt like a Pokemon. While Ash might have seemed more immature it was nit as bad as SUMO. Once you got pass the first few episodes it was not that noticeable. That and the comedy did not seem so gross. I'm just hoping comedy is not the focus for Gen 8.

 

[GarchompTheAssassin]

Nope not really

 

[Satoshi & Touko]

I’d take the edgiest version of Ash over this SM Ash ever single time

There is so much you can do with an edgy Ash.

How is enjoyable to see a character screw up and act all immature?

The depression arc for me and the entirety of XYZ and the XY specials just showcase what you can do with a mature Pokemon

Mature Pokemon is not a bad thing and it could be the best thing for the Pokemon anime if they decide to switch gears.

As I said, considering that Ash's goal hasn't really gone anywhere in the last 21 years, why continue to be so emotionally invested in him? I'm more content to just enjoy the anime as something fun that boasts so many different characters and creatures with special powers.

 

[AznKei]

As I said, considering that Ash's goal hasn't really gone anywhere in the last 21 years, why continue to be so emotionally invested in him? I'm more content to just enjoy the anime as something fun that boasts so many different characters and creatures with special powers.

Well, maybe they do know that he's going to fail in every league, but they still like to see how he fares against strong opponents with their powerful Pokemons. I mean, I can see the point of having those Pokemon versus threads because they're really into these stuffs.

 

[Slapstick-Olivia]

I always find it so weird when people call Ash "badass". I mean, a badass character would be more someone like.... well Zorro from One Piece as an example or Batman or... Wolverine etc. Ash never was at least for me this hardcore badass character. Not even in X&Y. He was just the typical Ash we know, but just painted over so that he looked on the outside more "badass". But in my opinion this didn't really do it for me. Since Ash can't be a real "badass" and a more "mature" character, since... well, he is Ash, they had to remove a lot of his personality and quirks, to the point where he sadly became very boring and flat.

And that is how Ash in X&Y felt for me. He was just a very restraint character in most episodes. Ash is a character that is hold back in how he is written. He is still a 10 year old boy and the star of a very family friendly kid show who has no real depth and maturity. Ash can't really be a badass character in this type of show, non of the humans can be that.

If Ash really wants to be a hardcore badass character, then he must be a part of a different show, because Pokémon, was and will be always a fun, harmless kids show.

 

[Power Up]

I always find it so weird when people call Ash "badass". I mean, a badass character would be more someone like.... well Zorro from One Piece as an example or Batman or... Wolverine etc. Ash never was at least for me this hardcore badass character. Not even in X&Y. He was just the typical Ash we know, but just painted over so that he looked on the outside more "badass". But in my opinion this didn't really do it for me. Since Ash can't be a real "badass" and a more "mature" character, since... well, he is Ash, they had to remove a lot of his personality and quirks, to the point where he sadly become very boring and flat.

And that is how Ash in X&Y felt for me. He was just a very restraint character in most episodes. Ash is a character that is hold back in how he is written. He is still a 10 year old boy and the star of a very family friendly kid show who has no real depth and maturity. Ash can't really be a badass character in this type of show, non of the humans can be that.

If Ash really wants to a hardcore badass character, then he must be a part of a different show, because Pokémon, was and will be always a fun, harmless kids show.

There is so much the writers can do with a more mature Pokemon and a more mature Ash

Why do you want to see Ash with no depth or maturity? What? You want this show to stay what it is? A stagnant anime that has been going on for 20 years with no real progress?

Instead of just looking at the Pokémon anime as a way to promote the games, the writers should look at the Pokémon anime as a stand-alone anime series.

Or at least separate it into two different shows. One for actual progression and one with the same boring kiddish thing that’s been going on for 20+ years. That means two different Ashes.

Considering how different these last 3 Gens have been, I’m holding my breath for a major major shake up with Gen 8.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Absolutely. SM has been so dull and boring that it made me go back to BW just to see how I think of it now and despite all of it's faults, it was still a fun series to go through with great laughs that weren't forced, mostly decent battles (with some not-so decent ones as well) and, you know, an actual adventure with the main goal actually being the constant focus even when there's a side-story episode. It still felt like a Pokemon anime. SM just doesn't at all to me even after 80 freaking episodes. I hardly give a damn about any of the side characters in this show and the ones I DO care about aren't doing enough interesting things anymore. I don't like SM's Ash at all, either. In looks or in personality. They're trying way too hard to make him cute, goofy and relatable (or so folks think, though I disagree) and I just don't give a damn about any of that. I prefer the old versions of Ash. I thought the Nihilego arc was decent at first but upon revisiting it, even that wasn't all that great and the second half of it gets lackluster pretty fast with a pretty lame ending aside from Kukui and Burnet's wedding. I enjoyed BW's Team Rocket and Plasma arcs more and the main plot of the series more than SM's. But at least SM can't possibly make their league any worse than BW's, which I initially skipped.

Then again, I never thought there'd be a series so uninteresting and uninspired that it'd make me give BW a retry and a better rating overall, so I'm sure it'll do something to surprise me and prove me wrong by having an even worse league than BW's.

-sigh- I miss DP and XY&Z. I can't wait until Gen 7 is over.

 

[Henry's Journey]

No, Best Wishes remains pretty mediocre/average altough I liked the plot/major episodes for the most part, some of them were badly executed like the Ash vs Cameron battle of the Unova League tho.

The worst arc of the entire anime remains to be the atrocious DA! Ughhhh.

Sun & Moon is great, way better than BW in my opinion.

 

[Epicocity]

There is so much the writers can do with a more mature Pokemon and a more mature Ash

Why do you want to see Ash with no depth or maturity? What? You want this show to stay what it is? A stagnant anime that has been going on for 20 years with no real progress?

Instead of just looking at the Pokémon anime as a way to promote the games, the writers should look at the Pokémon anime as a stand-alone anime series.

Or at least separate it into two different shows. One for actual progression and one with the same boring kiddish thing that’s been going on for 20+ years. That means two different Ashes.

Considering how different these last 3 Gens have been, I’m holding my breath for a major major shake up with Gen 8.

Mature is relative, but I'd easily argue an "edgy" Ash would do no favor for the series. Ash isn't edgy, and if half the fanfics out there that try to make him so are any indication, it's a horrible idea since they usually fail and make Ash an "in-name-only" character.

That said, I don't think a series should throw away Ash's development just to suit the tone of whatever they're going for. By 7 regions in, Ash shouldn't be a kid on a sugar rush, at least. He should have a bit more restraint in his actions, and BW, for whatever flaws it had, still held on to that.

So, to answer the thread's question: yes, SM has made me look more favorably at BW because I still felt Ash was Ash and not subjected to a case of Depending on the Writer.

 

[Power Up]

Mature is relative, but I'd easily argue an "edgy" Ash would do no favor for the series. Ash isn't edgy, and if half the fanfics out there that try to make him so are any indication, it's a horrible idea since they usually fail and make Ash an "in-name-only" character.

That said, I don't think a series should throw away Ash's development just to suit the tone of whatever they're going for. By 7 regions in, Ash shouldn't be a kid on a sugar rush, at least. He should have a bit more restraint in his actions, and BW, for whatever flaws it had, still held on to that.

So, to answer the thread's question: yes, SM has made me look more favorably at BW because I still felt Ash was Ash and not subjected to a case of Depending on the Writer.

Don’t worry, that part was exaggeration

However, there are a lot of plot lines that the Pokémon anime is neglecting just because Ash never gives up or keeps on going and is always happy and is always right

 

[Epicocity]

Don’t worry, that part was exaggeration

However, there are a lot of plot lines that the Pokémon anime is neglecting just because Ash never gives up or keeps on going and is always happy and is always right

I don't see that as a flaw of the series, though. Pokemon slides towards the "idealistic" over the "cynical" and there's nothing wrong with that. I think it's more interesting to see them tackle the more mature plots while leaving it in the confines of a kid's series. That's why it was a shame they didn't try to tackle SM's game plot when it came to Lusamine because it would've been interesting to have them tackle a very complex and dark theme while within this kind of series, but they didn't.

Though Ash never giving up is his character. When he doesn't (all of twice) it's very much a serious case. What it sounds like you want is a complete re-write of the series, though.

 

[Power Up]

I don't see that as a flaw of the series, though. Pokemon slides towards the "idealistic" over the "cynical" and there's nothing wrong with that. I think it's more interesting to see them tackle the more mature plots while leaving it in the confines of a kid's series. That's why it was a shame they didn't try to tackle SM's game plot when it came to Lusamine because it would've been interesting to have them tackle a very complex and dark theme while within this kind of series, but they didn't.

Though Ash never giving up is his character. When he doesn't (all of twice) it's very much a serious case. What it sounds like you want is a complete re-write of the series, though.

And there’s nothing wrong with the idealistic tone of Pokemon for the most part.

However, some anime only plots would be interesting. An example being the depression arc. Only using game plots would be repetitive for me.

I mean considering Ash is always in the right and always upholds truth, justice, and all that jazz, it’d be nice to see his ideals questioned once in a while

I do understand what you’re saying however. Ash will always be Ash, and I would never want to remove the part of his character that is a excited kid who loves Pokémon

But it would be nice if the Pokémon anime focused more on his flaws

 

[Slapstick-Olivia]

Why do you want to see Ash with no depth or maturity? What? You want this show to stay what it is? A stagnant anime that has been going on for 20 years with no real progress?

Because this is not what the Pokémon anime is about. It is not a show that can and will handle bigger and deeper themes like war, divorce, the lost of a loved one, relationships etc. at list not with a character like Ash. Ash is not written to be a mature and straight character. He never was. Not even in X&Y. Even in that show, they didn't even target the shipping correctly. I mean, this boy is not even mature enough to realize, that a girl has a crush on him. How in the world can we use him in even mature plots, if someone that simple like a childhood crush is already to much for him?

Ash is for me not deeper of a character like Spongebob or Sonic. He is not that type of character to be put into mature plots and the anime is also not that type of show to be put in either. I mean, would you write a story of Dora the Explorer where she is an adult, got pregnant than lost the baby and have to deal with this horrible lost? No. Because this is not who Dora is. Just like how Ash is not this hardcore, badass, mature action hero guy.

He is a 10 year old kid, who just enjoys his life.