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After SUMO have you feelings towards BW changed?

Because this is not what the Pokémon anime is about. It is not a show that can and will handle bigger and deeper themes like war, divorce, the lost of a loved one, relationships etc. at list not with a character like Ash. Ash is not written to be a mature and straight character. He never was. Not even in X&Y. Even in that show, they didn't even target the shipping correctly. I mean, this boy is not even mature enough to realize, that a girl has a crush on him. How in the world can we use him in even mature plots, if someone that simple like a childhood crush is already to much for him?

Ash is for me not deeper of a character like Spongebob or Sonic. He is not that type of character to be put into mature plots and the anime is also not that type of show to be put in either. I mean, would you write a story of Dora the Explorer where she is an adult, got pregnant than lost the baby and have to deal with this horrible lost? No. Because this is not who Dora is. Just like how Ash is not this hardcore, badass, mature action hero guy.

He is a 10 year old kid, who just enjoys his life.

Considering that the anime ruined his progression as a character, I see what you mean.

And who said I wanted all of that? Mostly I’d just like Ash to win the league/become a Pokémon master in a grandiose way that doesn’t involve gags or slapstick. Just some cold hard strong development where Ash fails more and improves more.
 
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DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Ash can have character development besides winning the league. SM is at least trying to put him in different circumstances and give him new experiences that could contribute to becoming a Pokemon master.

I don't mind Ash being quirky. It gives him vibrancy and it makes his characterisation stand out. Making him too goal centric is a hinderance since obviously he can only progress so far in it, if he has to remain stagnant they may as well make him fun about it.

People act like the anime being silly cuts down the depth and weight of plots, but if anything XY's more 'serious' direction was the show at its most formulaic. In SM we've at least had new grounds and challenges, stuff that seems to pry proper emotion from Ash. The only time Ash wasn't a hyper competent drone in XY was the token 'defeat BSOD' arc he has nearly every series.

You could get rid of Ash, the slapstick, Team Rocket, and all that other comical stuff, and I'd bet that the anime would still be no less formulaic and bland. The writers have blatant comfort zones.
 

Zoruagible

Lover of underrated characters
Hell no, Best Wishes is an abomination and NOTHING like the amazing games it was based off of.
Nothing could make me prefer it, I think the League was better than the Kalos one.... but other than that, it was awful and just showed how Ash is being dragged along far longer than he should have been. DP(And XY I suppose) would have been perfect places to finish his story and let them start fresh with a new protagonist. Hell if they want a Pikachu being on the cast, just make the new kid Ash's son! It'd be better than Ash being reset and going "Hurrr what's that?" when seeing a Pokemon he ****ing owns! People always use the "They need to aim for new audience" crap of an excuse, if it's true then they should make a NEW protagonist entirely and let a region start completely fresh like Unova should have been with Hilbert, Cilan, and Bianca!
 

cmarston1

Animation Enthusiast
Well even as someone who likes Iris as a character, Sun Moon has made me like her even more. As flawed as her dragon master goal was, it sill beats whatever the writers are doing with useless chef girl and Lana. Also I miss the girl characters having more than one Pokemon on their team.
 

SoundVoltex

Well-Known Member
No, not really.

I'm very much into how strong Ash is as a trainer with his team. Best Wishes is by far is weakest line up, often times forcing status as his win conditions. You rarely or do not see that in other generations. Ash's battling style is very defined in X&Y and continued in Sun and Moon. Sun and Moon started off really badly for me, but as I watched it, it created one of the most engrossing Pokemon arcs I've ever watched (saving Lusamine). Needless to say, I still think Best Wishes is still one of the worst series to date.

I forget if the Team Rocket vs Team Plasma thing even aired. I was really hyped about that, but don't recall ever watching it.
 
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Pokegirl Fan~

Liko>>>>>Ash
No, not really.

I'm very much into how strong Ash is as a trainer with his team. Best Wishes is by far is weakest line up, often times forcing status as his win conditions. You rarely or do not see that in other generations. Ash's battling style is very defined in X&Y and continued in Sun and Moon. Sun and Moon started off really badly for me, but as I watched it, it created one of the most engrossing Pokemon arcs I've ever watched (saving Lusamine). Needless to say, I still think Best Wishes is still one of the worst series to date, at least in my opinion.

I forget if the Team Rocket vs Team Plasma thing even aired. I was really hyped about that, but don't recall ever watching it.
It was 'postponed' so it hasn't aired, which is a shame.
 

Xuxuba

Well-Known Member
Tbh BW had some very awful episodes, but like at least 20 of them i liked very much (like Iris and Excadrill' backstory, Cilan defending the gym from that woman who defeated his brothers, N's episodes, they gotta be some of my favorites).

So far there aren't many SM episodes that i found awful, just extremely boring, but also there aren't that many that i can say i liked very much, except the one where Stoutland dies.

Overall, i would say that i appreciate BW a little bit more for having these episodes.

*sighs* I think I've said it before, but I'll say it again: It saddens me to know how much value is placed on Ash's competence, "badassery", and whatnot when it comes to the enjoyability of a series. :( Especially when, what with where we are today, it just isn't worth it to continue to be so emotionally invested in Ash.
My indefference towards SM has nothing to do with Ash's competence and "badassery", although i don't like when the writers throw all of his development as a trainer and as a person out of the window.

My indifference towards SM has to do with the lack of character development except for a few moments (mainly involving early series' Lillie), the removal of some things from the SM games that made the generation's plot interesting like Lusamine abusing Lillie, Lillie's strong bond with Cosmog, Lusamine being the first female villain, important episodes being filled with filler content where they do absolutely nothing important or even entertaining for half of the episode, serious moments not being treated the way it should, the comedy relying too much on cheap unoriginal jokes instead of witty dialogue like the dialogue from the OS, the side characters getting even less attention than the past ones (like how was this even possible?!), the lack of pokemon battles throughout most of the series and the list goes on...
 
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Twilight-Kun

Pokemon World Champion
I cherry-picked maybe a dozen BW episodes and enjoyed them all, whereas SM is alright if you don't mind slice-of-life storytelling

Unfortunately, it tends to stumble whenever it remembers that it's supposed to advertise new pokémon or copy the game plot

Lillie hugging Nebby is probably one of the most infuriating moments in SM because they had absolutely no bonding experiences and Nebby did less for Lillie than Shiron has
 

Xuxuba

Well-Known Member
I cherry-picked maybe a dozen BW episodes and enjoyed them all, whereas SM is alright if you don't mind slice-of-life storytelling

Unfortunately, it tends to stumble whenever it remembers that it's supposed to advertise new pokémon or copy the game plot

Lillie hugging Nebby is probably one of the most infuriating moments in SM because they had absolutely no bonding experiences and Nebby did less for Lillie than Shiron has
Tbh i don't think the series has to copy the game plot, but it is good to use some of their elements that could make the series better and also advertise the games.

Like, i still think Lusamine had great potential as a villain, way more than Faba at least.

Regarding Nebby i definetly agree.
Their bond was one of the most interesting thing in the storyline, it is a shame they ditched her and gave him to Ash.
 

Twilight-Kun

Pokemon World Champion
Tbh i don't think the series has to copy the game plot's, but it is good to use some of their elements that could make the series better and also advertise the games.

Like, i still think Lusamine had great potential as a villain, way more than Faba at least.
Ah yes, Lusamine, who went from "overworked mother with no time for family and wants to fix that", to "suddenly being an Ultra Beast enthusiast" without warning

It was exceptionally rushed, no two ways about it, but if you watch the Ultra Space episodes and ignore the events of the previous ten, it's a little more bearable
 

Weavy

I come and go suddenly
No, not really.

But I've always thought each series has its pros and cons; the anime's always been meh to me no matter what series it is. It's hard to impress me with this anime; in the end it will always be an advertisement for the games/merchandise which favours promotion over plot and I seriously doubt that will change anytime soon.
 

lolipiece

Pictured: what browsing Serebii does to a person
Staff member
Moderator
No. BW was a stream of bad decisions. I enjoy SM for what it is.

Even the worst seasons have good moments, and BW is no exception. This season had tons of great moments I'd rewatch in a heartbeat. But when so many of the biggest concepts are so poorly executed, it piles up and sours the whole experience a bit.

If they wanted to make Team Rocket more serious villains, that's fine. But it shouldn't have come at the cost of their personalities.

If they wanted to give Iris and Cilan their own recurring rivals, that's fine. But if most of their appearances is nothing but standing around watching tournaments and bickering with one another, then why bother?

I can't blame them for cancelling the TR vs TP episode because that was out of their control. But I can blame them for Episode N. ...Probably.

I could go on, but I won't.

SM, even at its worst, always manages to put a smile on my face. It made it clear from day one that its intention was to have fun, and they've kept that promise with everything they've got. BW felt it trying to backpedal of a lot of its stuff near the third act.

Ah yes, Lusamine, who went from "overworked mother with no time for family and wants to fix that", to "suddenly being an Ultra Beast enthusiast" without warning

...? Lusamine explicitly stated she's always wanted to meet Ultra Beasts since she was a child.

She's been UB crazy since day one.
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
BW was when I lost what little investment remained in Ash, XY made me hate Ash, and SM has made the pendulum swing back to apathy.
 

SoundVoltex

Well-Known Member
Thinking about it, how Ash lost to a literal idiot in the series in the Pokemon league during Best Wishes still ticks me off... I mean the Ash was the only trainer to take down a Darkrai during the Sinnoh League down to losing to a just evolved Lucario in a team of 5... He was even handed a free KO when that kid sent in Ferrothorn vs Pignite...
 

U.N. Owen

In Brightest Day, In Blackest Night ...
Ash's character, though he develops, is not particularly compelling. I know Shoudo wanted to make a very compelling antagonists, but the antagonists are slightly less bland. I say slightly because TRio have respectable backstories in supplementary material, but Ash lacks one for his motivations to be a master. I'm not looking for complexity, but I am looking for some resonance.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
SoundVoltex said:
Thinking about it, how Ash lost to a literal idiot in the series in the Pokemon league during Best Wishes still ticks me off... I mean the Ash was the only trainer to take down a Darkrai during the Sinnoh League down to losing to a just evolved Lucario in a team of 5... He was even handed a free KO when that kid sent in Ferrothorn vs Pignite...

It's not as if Satoshi's team was spectacular during Best Wishes, though. It was mainly Pikachu, Chaoboo, and Waruvial that carried his team back then, and even they weren't that powerful when compared to some of his past powerhouses, so Satoshi's loss to Kotetsu was somewhat justified even if it was controversial.
 

SoundVoltex

Well-Known Member
Regardless of Ash's team, he has always thought of ways to think on his feet. In his most important battles during Best Wishes, it felt like a cop out. His win conditions were almost exclusively based on status from Pikachu's passive like vs Roxie (8th gym leader, also 6 vs 3...) or something over simplified like one shotting Trip's Serperior with that Iron Tail ElectroBall combination. Anyway, that's my reasoning for hating on Best Wishes, almost with a passion.
 

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
I cherry-picked maybe a dozen BW episodes and enjoyed them all, whereas SM is alright if you don't mind slice-of-life storytelling

Unfortunately, it tends to stumble whenever it remembers that it's supposed to advertise new pokémon or copy the game plot

Lillie hugging Nebby is probably one of the most infuriating moments in SM because they had absolutely no bonding experiences and Nebby did less for Lillie than Shiron has
tbh, at least they followed it up with nebby licking ash and his konpeito, which was pretty good
 
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