Alain vs Paul; Battle Of The Strongest!

[Doppelgänger]

The rule of thumb in normal WWW/versus topics is to be conservative with your feats. If you deviate too far from what was visually shown, you are essentially making things up. There's absolutely no way to compare Sawyer and Pyramid King Brandon in any meaningful way, since while they both battled Ash, those versions of Ash were EXTREMELY different, and might as well be considered different trainers completely.

Paul/Alain is an easier comparison because Kalos Ash/Sinnoh Ash are similar trainers, there is a power-up ace in Infernape/Greninja, and Pikachu is basically the same (although arguably weaker with Electroball v Volt Tackle). However, XY and Sinnoh were different series: in Sinnoh, strategy played a much greater role and was shown to have the potential to overcome brute muscle. No greater evidence of this is Ash knocking out Darkrai and Latios, with no other trainer in Sinnoh even coming close to knocking out Darkrai; strategy and a little heart was capable of overcoming power.

In Kalos, brute force was really all that mattered, with no amount of strategy saving weak Pokemon. The theme of that region was strength and growing stronger.

I personally feel Ash's Kalos team was massively overrated and was propped up by Ash's skill and Pikachu's experience. Goodra, Noivern, and Talonflame tended to crack under pressure, with Noivern never winning a battle after evolving. Greninja relied very heavily on his transformation so we have little idea what the base Pokemon's power is like (although Greninja lost all fights in his base form). Hawlucha was the only Pokemon aside from Pikachu with decent feats and consistent power.

Guzma showing in SM that XY's brawn-over-brain era is over raises the question on if Paul, who faced a superior Ash with a superior team and brought him within inches of defeat, could handle a trainer a weaker Ash also brought to a 6-5 situation.

 

[R0shan]

It was mentioned in the Korrina gym battle with her Mega Lucario. Bond Phenomenon grants an even greater boost than Mega Evolution since Base Greninja and Sawyer's Base Sceptile were equally matched, but Ash-Greninja dominated Mega Sceptile, so Bond Phenomenon is double the boost of Mega Evolution. So I'd say Ash-Greninja was slightly above an E4 Mega Ace, Mega Sceptile being above an E4 ace, and both Ash's Base Greninja and Sawyer's Sceptile are slightly stronger than Ash's Infernape.

What was Korrina's exact quote? I don't remember. In the games, Mega Evolution doesn't double every stat.

Ash-Greninja's best performance is beating Sawyer's Mega Sceptile in a close battle. Infernape's three wins against Paul at the league conference is better than that IMO. Ash-Greninja is marginally better than Infernape activating Blaze.

We see Charizard's progression in the Mega Evolution Specials from losing to Siebold while disadvantaged, to struggling heavily against Steven despite having a type advantage, to finally beating Malva with a disadvantage. Can you prove Malva explicitly held back to let Alain win, otherwise Alain's Mega Charizard X is stronger than an E4 Mega Ace. XY was the first series to stop treating the E4 like unbeatable gods, and for the first time, it felt like Ash had a realistic chance of beating an Elite Four member with his best team.

I can't explicitly prove that she held back, but I think there are compelling reasons as to think she did. She was more preoccupied with teasing Alain, and if she didn't hold back and beat Alain, that means Lysandre would lose a loyal and powerful agent, which goes against what Team Flare wants. She didn't finish off Charizard when Houndoom had it locked to the ground. She didn't dodge or block the Blast Burn. She wasn't at all upset when she lost, and I would think that a member of the Elite 4 would care about their position and reputation.

What do you mean Mega Charizard X can't handle legendaries? Do you really think Darkrai and Latios are in the same league as the likes as Zygarde 50% form, let alone much stronger legendaries like Primal Groudon/Kyogre? Do you really think Noland's Articuno is on-par with Primal Groudon/Kygore?

Darkrai and Latios are probably on the same league as 50% Zygarde. I agree with you that Primal Groudon/Kyogre are significantly better than Articuno, but likewise, they were significantly better than Mega Charizard X too.

I feel like I've seen this exact same argument almost word-for-word here before from another person, even down to mentioning Brock's statement and the five consecutive full battles. You even make the same word-for-word arguments as him, the same rose-tinted goggles view of the Hoenn League, the same downplaying of XY.

Probably. None of this is new information. It's happened/happening elsewhere in another forum or social media or on a Youtube video comment section. Likewise, I have seen similar arguments to your own elsewhere.

You do realise that if Tyson's opponents were equally as good as Ash, then that just means nobody in the Hoenn League was outright better than Ash aside from Tyson. It would mean none of the Pokemon Tyson actually battled were stronger than Ash's Swellow 1v1. Meaning the Ever Grande Conference was never a challenging league since if any of his opponents were stronger than HL Ash, Tyson wouldn't have won the League. Even if Tyson only used the same team, that just makes it even less challenging of a league since its heavily implied the Hoenn League is Tyson's first league (Sceptile was his starter, never mentioned competing in a past league like Harrison, etc.)

Ash gets routinely pushed to the last Pokemon in many of his battles against inferior trainers. Tyson could have defeated trainers superior to Ash. Ash was lucky that Swellow did some unrealistic things like stop that Donphan and crack the armor of Metagross, otherwise the loss wouldn't have been as close.

Literally nobody thinks the Manalo Conference is a competitive league, so don't pull strawmen from nowhere. The Lumoise Conference is more competitive than the Hoenn League where nobody had a single tier 1 Pokemon, not even the League winner. You mention the curbstomps, but that just shows how much stronger Ash's regional team is in XY compared to other regions. Would you rather Ash struggle against fodder trainers, then we sat there wondering how Ash could beat Alain if he struggled against Astrid?

Tierno qualified for the last 8 at the Lumiose Conference. Katie, Morrison, and Tyson are far better than Tierno. Sawyer is a greenhorn, and he nearly made it to the finals. The Lumiose Conference wasn't chock full of powerhouse trainers other than Ash and Alain. What is a "tier 1 Pokemon?" There needs to be some frame of reference given before using fanon terms.

Let's set aside the fact that Mega Charizard X would sweep Paul the moment it is sent out, first or last. If Alain sends it out first, its a 6-0 victory for him. If he sends it out last, then Paul loses 6-5. This isn't even getting into the fact that Base Charizard IS stronger than an E4 ace by the League. Now granted Electivire isn't held back by its opponent having an Electric immunity (which makes a massive difference), but at bare minimum, base Charizard would beat Torterra and Electivire, then losing to Drapion. Metagross (and if needed, Bisharp) would beat the remainder of Paul's team, with Paul losing 6-2.

I will have to disagree. The poll results indicate there are widespread differences of opinion regarding the strength of Alain and Paul (other than the general consensus that Alain defeats Paul with Mega Charizard, which I agree with), and likewise your opinion is far different than mine. You can talk to me more about this topic via PM if you want, because I said everything I needed to say in this thread.

 

[Lunanight]

I personally feel Ash's Kalos team was massively overrated and was propped up by Ash's skill and Pikachu's experience.

I agree that the Kalos team wasn't as strong as some say, though I do believe overall it is Ash's strongest regional team (ignoring BF Hoenn team since that happened after the Hoenn League). Goodra is massively overrated purely for being a pseudo-legend in the games. Noivern is pretty garbage even if its still better than Hoenn League Torkoal. The rest of the Kalos team is slightly better than the DP team though, ignoring Ash-Greninja.

As for Base Greninja, we already know how strong it is. Base Greninja and Sawyer's Base Sceptile are equals. This is important since it Base Sceptile fodderised Tierno's Blastoise in one hit from Frenzy Plant, and we know Blastoise one-shot Slurpuff with a neutral Hydro Pump. Paul's Electivire needed three hits (two beign super effective) to dominate Barry's Empoleon. Base Greninja is therefore capable of the same feat as Base Sceptile against any tier 2 Pokemon it can hit super effectively.

If any team of Ash's is overrated, its the Sinnoh team which is objectively weaker than the Kalos team and relied on Infernape and Pikachu as crutches to beat Paul's Sinnoh League team. The DP team isn't even as good as the XY team (even without Ash-Greninja), let alone Ash's BF Hoenn team which is clearly his best team by a landslide.

BF Sceptile beats Infernape, BF Pikachu (vs Lucy/Anabel) would beat DP Pikachu (vs Paul), BF Swellow would beat Gliscor+Torterra, and Glalie beats Staraptor+Buizel. Corphish and Torkoal wouldn't even be needed since BF Ash would stomp DP Ash 6-3.

Guzma showing in SM that XY's brawn-over-brain era is over raises the question on if Paul, who faced a superior Ash with a superior team and brought him within inches of defeat, could handle a trainer a weaker Ash also brought to a 6-5 situation.

You really think XY Ash is weaker than DP Ash? Topu Keku. I think you should rewatch the Ash vs Paul fight, since its been a few years so a few things get forgotten. Staraptor would have lost to Gastrodon, debatably Paul's second weakest Pokemon, and didn't even damage Drapion at all. Buizel and Torterra got massacred by Drapion, and would have lost easily 1v1 against Froslass or Ninjask, and Gliscor was struggling against Ninjask (and probably would have lost if Ash left it in).

XY Ash would have done much better since aside from Noivern, the entire team is stronger than DP Ash's team. XY Pikachu would get 2-3, Base Greninja is saved to beat Electivire, and Hawlucha and Talonflame would beat Aggron and Gastrodon. Hawlucha, Talonflame, and Goodra would go down to Drapion, who gets damaged enough for Pikachu to beat it and Ninjask, then draw with Froslass due to poison damage. Noivern might not even be used at all for a 6-4 win against Paul's League team, but Noivern wouldn't be able to beat any of Paul's Pokemon.

Alain doesn't need a better team than Paul: he just his best three Pokemon to be collectively stronger than Paul's whole team. Base Charizard is slightly stronger than Paul's Torterra, Motor Drive Electivire, and Drapion. Metagross is slightly stronger than Motor Drive Electivire, and Bisharp is comparable to Ursaring. The other three of Alain's Pokemon don't even matter when discussing Paul vs Alain.

 

[mehmeh1]

The rule of thumb in normal WWW/versus topics is to be conservative with your feats. If you deviate too far from what was visually shown, you are essentially making things up. There's absolutely no way to compare Sawyer and Pyramid King Brandon in any meaningful way, since while they both battled Ash, those versions of Ash were EXTREMELY different, and might as well be considered different trainers completely.

Paul/Alain is an easier comparison because Kalos Ash/Sinnoh Ash are similar trainers, there is a power-up ace in Infernape/Greninja, and Pikachu is basically the same (although arguably weaker with Electroball v Volt Tackle). However, XY and Sinnoh were different series: in Sinnoh, strategy played a much greater role and was shown to have the potential to overcome brute muscle. No greater evidence of this is Ash knocking out Darkrai and Latios, with no other trainer in Sinnoh even coming close to knocking out Darkrai; strategy and a little heart was capable of overcoming power.

In Kalos, brute force was really all that mattered, with no amount of strategy saving weak Pokemon. The theme of that region was strength and growing stronger.

I personally feel Ash's Kalos team was massively overrated and was propped up by Ash's skill and Pikachu's experience. Goodra, Noivern, and Talonflame tended to crack under pressure, with Noivern never winning a battle after evolving. Greninja relied very heavily on his transformation so we have little idea what the base Pokemon's power is like (although Greninja lost all fights in his base form). Hawlucha was the only Pokemon aside from Pikachu with decent feats and consistent power.

Guzma showing in SM that XY's brawn-over-brain era is over raises the question on if Paul, who faced a superior Ash with a superior team and brought him within inches of defeat, could handle a trainer a weaker Ash also brought to a 6-5 situation.

Noivern beat doublade, while Greninja beat Scizor, Clawitzer, and Bisharp (was also going evenly with luxray pre-training, as well as going equal to base sceptile and doing visible damage to charizard in the league fights)

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Ace
1.Alain
2.Paul/Sawyer

Team Depth
1.Paul
2.Alain
3.Sawyer

Battling Skill/IQ
1.Paul
2.Sawyer
3.Alain

Experience
1.Paul
2.Alain
3.Sawyer

Planning
1.Paul
2.Sawyer
3.Alain

Training
1.Paul
2.Alain
3.Sawyer

 

[Power Up]

The rule of thumb in normal WWW/versus topics is to be conservative with your feats. If you deviate too far from what was visually shown, you are essentially making things up. There's absolutely no way to compare Sawyer and Pyramid King Brandon in any meaningful way, since while they both battled Ash, those versions of Ash were EXTREMELY different, and might as well be considered different trainers completely.

Paul/Alain is an easier comparison because Kalos Ash/Sinnoh Ash are similar trainers, there is a power-up ace in Infernape/Greninja, and Pikachu is basically the same (although arguably weaker with Electroball v Volt Tackle). However, XY and Sinnoh were different series: in Sinnoh, strategy played a much greater role and was shown to have the potential to overcome brute muscle. No greater evidence of this is Ash knocking out Darkrai and Latios, with no other trainer in Sinnoh even coming close to knocking out Darkrai; strategy and a little heart was capable of overcoming power.

In Kalos, brute force was really all that mattered, with no amount of strategy saving weak Pokemon. The theme of that region was strength and growing stronger.

I personally feel Ash's Kalos team was massively overrated and was propped up by Ash's skill and Pikachu's experience. Goodra, Noivern, and Talonflame tended to crack under pressure, with Noivern never winning a battle after evolving. Greninja relied very heavily on his transformation so we have little idea what the base Pokemon's power is like (although Greninja lost all fights in his base form). Hawlucha was the only Pokemon aside from Pikachu with decent feats and consistent power.

Guzma showing in SM that XY's brawn-over-brain era is over raises the question on if Paul, who faced a superior Ash with a superior team and brought him within inches of defeat, could handle a trainer a weaker Ash also brought to a 6-5 situation.

I really doubt you've actually watched the XY/XYZ anime

 

[ash&charizardfan]

The rule of thumb in normal WWW/versus topics is to be conservative with your feats. If you deviate too far from what was visually shown, you are essentially making things up. There's absolutely no way to compare Sawyer and Pyramid King Brandon in any meaningful way, since while they both battled Ash, those versions of Ash were EXTREMELY different, and might as well be considered different trainers completely.

Paul/Alain is an easier comparison because Kalos Ash/Sinnoh Ash are similar trainers, there is a power-up ace in Infernape/Greninja, and Pikachu is basically the same (although arguably weaker with Electroball v Volt Tackle). However, XY and Sinnoh were different series: in Sinnoh, strategy played a much greater role and was shown to have the potential to overcome brute muscle. No greater evidence of this is Ash knocking out Darkrai and Latios, with no other trainer in Sinnoh even coming close to knocking out Darkrai; strategy and a little heart was capable of overcoming power.

In Kalos, brute force was really all that mattered, with no amount of strategy saving weak Pokemon. The theme of that region was strength and growing stronger.

I personally feel Ash's Kalos team was massively overrated and was propped up by Ash's skill and Pikachu's experience. Goodra, Noivern, and Talonflame tended to crack under pressure, with Noivern never winning a battle after evolving. Greninja relied very heavily on his transformation so we have little idea what the base Pokemon's power is like (although Greninja lost all fights in his base form). Hawlucha was the only Pokemon aside from Pikachu with decent feats and consistent power.

Guzma showing in SM that XY's brawn-over-brain era is over raises the question on if Paul, who faced a superior Ash with a superior team and brought him within inches of defeat, could handle a trainer a weaker Ash also brought to a 6-5 situation.

I always think his sinnoh team is massively overrated, the only worthwhile members were infernape and glisco and gible came on very late rest were canon fodders, atleat in kalos he had to depend on three pokemon in greninja, hawlucha and talonflame. Also to mention i think kalos trainers were superior to sinnoh tainers due to the pesence of mega evolution.

As for brute force just watch kalos gym battles he had to use strategy to win pretty much every battle so it is stupid to say he won eery battle with brute force.

 

[Doppelgänger]

I never said Ash only used brute force. I was referring to his opponents, which is quite clear by this line:

I personally feel Ash's Kalos team was massively overrated and was propped up by Ash's skill and Pikachu's experience.

Excluding Greninja and Pikachu, Ash's Kalos team had a .5 winning percentage, and that's with Ash constantly using strategy to gain an edge. The only real practical difference between his Kalos/Unova team are evolutions and a pseudo legendary, but Goodra showed he wasn't on the level of other pseudos previously shown.

As for Sinnoh, I can understand people calling his Sinnoh team overrated. It performed about as well as Kalos did, and also had the benefit of Ash using his head very often. I'm as guilty as anyone for awarding too much credit to Sinnoh, probably because the Sinnoh team's last battle ended on a high note. Hoenn, Unova and Kalos all suffered defeat. I'm certainly open to the idea that Hoenn or Unova could be considered stronger regional teams at the time the region concluded.

(now, Ash's Battle Frontier team which combined Kanto-Hoenn is definitely his most powerful, with 2+ region experience and the Battle Frontier)

But there's no way Kalos is even in the conversation. All Kalos has going for it are Ash-Greninja, extreme killer Pikachu and strategic Ash.

 

[ash&charizardfan]

Lets see-
Talonflame>> Staraptor
Hawlucha> Buizel
Greninja> Infernape
Noivern<< Gliscor
Goodra= Torterra

That's 3-1 in kalos favour, how can kalos not come in strongest team is BS, it could very well be his thid most consistent team after kanto and hoenn but it is definitely above sinnoh, as for kalos being AG show sinnoh was pretty much infernape show, even pikachu could nt star in one gym in sinnoh the only worthy match it had was vs latios while in kalos except for noivern who was a late capture everyone had a share in glory, not to mention sinnoh had one year extra so it too many battles for his sinnoh team to develop.

 

[R0shan]

Lets see-
Talonflame>> Staraptor
Hawlucha> Buizel
Greninja> Infernape
Noivern<< Gliscor
Goodra= Torterra

That's 3-1 in kalos favour, how can kalos not come in strongest team is BS, it could very well be his thid most consistent team after kanto and hoenn but it is definitely above sinnoh, as for kalos being AG show sinnoh was pretty much infernape show, even pikachu could nt star in one gym in sinnoh the only worthy match it had was vs latios while in kalos except for noivern who was a late capture everyone had a share in glory, not to mention sinnoh had one year extra so it too many battles for his sinnoh team to develop.

I wouldn't say that Talonflame is ">>" than Staraptor, but a single ">". I think Torterra can beat Goodra too; its losses were only to really strong opponents. Don't forget that Sinnoh also has Gible, who was quite impressive in its battles at the Ever Grande Conference.

 

[Doppelgänger]

Lets see-
Talonflame>> Staraptor
Hawlucha> Buizel
Greninja> Infernape
Noivern<< Gliscor
Goodra= Torterra

Here's the current tabulated match win-loss-draw ratio for official battles, courtesy of Reddit:

Sinnoh

Infernape (85%)
Staraptor (50%)
Buizel (50%)
Gliscor (50%)
Torterra (40%)

Kalos

Greninja (73%)
Hawlucha (50%)
Talonflame (41%)
Goodra (33%)
Noivern (0%)

This thoroughly debunks any delusions that Kalos was "superior" to Sinnoh, hell you could argue Kalos is below Unova when considering Ash rotated out his Pokemon, so there were fewer opportunities to demonstrate "true talent". It also removes all opportunity for those unofficial, nonfeats like "almost" beating Zapdos, Moltres, and Diantha's Gardevoir.

Worth noting too, Infernape defeated three of Paul's Pokemon despite being heavily injured and poisoned. Ash-Greninja's on screen battles were 1x1s:

v. Avalugg = loss
v. Mega Abomasnow = win
v. Mega Sceptile = win
v. Mega Charizard = loss

All of these Pokemon had spent energy or were injured. In these 1x1s Ash-Greninja was only able to post a .5 record.

From how fans usually portray Ash-Greninja's strength, one would think Mega Sceptile = Latios. That's laughable. The power advantage of being a Mega is counterbalanced by Battle Bond, so it's not like Greninja was facing overwhelming odds like when Infernape was against Electivire.

 

[Dragalge]

Here's the current tabulated match win-loss-draw ratio for official battles, courtesy of Reddit:

Sinnoh

Infernape (85%)
Staraptor (50%)
Buizel (50%)
Gliscor (50%)
Torterra (40%)

Kalos

Greninja (73%)
Hawlucha (50%)
Talonflame (41%)
Goodra (33%)
Noivern (0%)

This thoroughly debunks any delusions that Kalos was "superior" to Sinnoh, hell you could argue Kalos is below Unova when considering Ash rotated out his Pokemon, so there were fewer opportunities to demonstrate "true talent". It also removes all opportunity for those unofficial, nonfeats like "almost" beating Zapdos, Moltres, and Diantha's Gardevoir.

Worth noting too, Infernape defeated three of Paul's Pokemon despite being heavily injured and poisoned. Ash-Greninja's on screen battles were 1x1s:

v. Avalugg = loss
v. Mega Abomasnow = win
v. Mega Sceptile = win
v. Mega Charizard = loss

All of these Pokemon had spent energy or were injured. In these 1x1s Ash-Greninja was only able to post a .5 record.

From how fans usually portray Ash-Greninja's strength, one would think Mega Sceptile = Latios. That's laughable. The power advantage of being a Mega is counterbalanced by Battle Bond, so it's not like Greninja was facing overwhelming odds like when Infernape was against Electivire.

I think some of the opponents Ash's fought in Kalos were of stronger stuff though. They may have had less wins but Noivern and Goodra aside, the rest still put on a stronger showing then Sinnoh's

 

[Akkipeddi]

Here's the current tabulated match win-loss-draw ratio for official battles, courtesy of Reddit:

Sinnoh

Infernape (85%)
Staraptor (50%)
Buizel (50%)
Gliscor (50%)
Torterra (40%)

Kalos

Greninja (73%)
Hawlucha (50%)
Talonflame (41%)
Goodra (33%)
Noivern (0%)

This thoroughly debunks any delusions that Kalos was "superior" to Sinnoh, hell you could argue Kalos is below Unova when considering Ash rotated out his Pokemon, so there were fewer opportunities to demonstrate "true talent". It also removes all opportunity for those unofficial, nonfeats like "almost" beating Zapdos, Moltres, and Diantha's Gardevoir.

Worth noting too, Infernape defeated three of Paul's Pokemon despite being heavily injured and poisoned. Ash-Greninja's on screen battles were 1x1s:

v. Avalugg = loss
v. Mega Abomasnow = win
v. Mega Sceptile = win
v. Mega Charizard = loss

All of these Pokemon had spent energy or were injured. In these 1x1s Ash-Greninja was only able to post a .5 record.

From how fans usually portray Ash-Greninja's strength, one would think Mega Sceptile = Latios. That's laughable. The power advantage of being a Mega is counterbalanced by Battle Bond, so it's not like Greninja was facing overwhelming odds like when Infernape was against Electivire.

And DP Ash has the lowest win % out of all versions of Ash. Guess that makes him worse than BW Ash at battling?

Also, your numbers are definitely off for most of his Sinnoh Pokémon:

Staraptor 43% (6-8)
Torterra 27% (4-11)
Infernape 73% (16-6)
Buizel 38% (4-7-1 = 5-8)
Glsicor 30% (2-6-1 = 3-7)
Gible 50% (2-2)

 

[Twilight-Kun]

It wouldn't be a 6-0 sweep

Paul would likely sacrifice one or two pokémon to see what MCX can do, then take it out with a follow-up strategy

Depends on when Alain uses Charizard and when he Mega Evolves it

If Paul can take out MCX early, he might be able to win through tanking moves and delivering counterattacks, otherwise he's going to lose

Sure, Alain's other League pokémon didn't have much going for them, but they still managed to KO some of Ash's pokémon, which means they'd likely give Paul a run for his money

 

[Doppelgänger]

Sinnoh was the last league where trainers with league experience, other than Ash, competed in the league. Kalos, Unova were stacked with rookies. The quality of competition was lower, regardless of "evolutions" or "Megas".

 

[Akkipeddi]

Sinnoh was the last league where trainers with league experience, other than Ash, competed in the league. Kalos, Unova were stacked with rookies. The quality of competition was lower, regardless of "evolutions" or "Megas".

Sawyer (implied to have received training from Steven, and got his Sceptilite from him) >>>Barry

Alain (league rookie, but way more experienced as a trainer than Paul)

Astrid and Remo are like Conway, where we don't know about them, but they seem established ME trainers. If Conway is being considered experienced, then so are Remo and Astrid.

Tierno is around Nando level, since the latter had trouble choosing between contests and battles, so he's very likely a rookie as well.

So yeah, SL trainers were 'so much more experienced'.

 

[ash&charizardfan]

I wouldn't say that Talonflame is ">>" than Staraptor, but a single ">". I think Torterra can beat Goodra too; its losses were only to really strong opponents. Don't forget that Sinnoh also has Gible, who was quite impressive in its battles at the Ever Grande Conference.

Gible was caught at the end of sinnoh and sinnoh had one year extra so it should not be counted, we dont know ash's kalos team could have even better feats if it had one extra yea, as for talonflame it was used in 7 out of 8 gyms and also some very good wins it definitely is far superior to straptor who stuggled in every battle, as for torterra it lost to every opponent despite having a type advantage, it is on par with goodra.

Here's the current tabulated match win-loss-draw ratio for official battles, courtesy of Reddit:

Sinnoh

Infernape (85%)
Staraptor (50%)
Buizel (50%)
Gliscor (50%)
Torterra (40%)

Kalos

Greninja (73%)
Hawlucha (50%)
Talonflame (41%)
Goodra (33%)
Noivern (0%)

This thoroughly debunks any delusions that Kalos was "superior" to Sinnoh, hell you could argue Kalos is below Unova when considering Ash rotated out his Pokemon, so there were fewer opportunities to demonstrate "true talent". It also removes all opportunity for those unofficial, nonfeats like "almost" beating Zapdos, Moltres, and Diantha's Gardevoir.

Worth noting too, Infernape defeated three of Paul's Pokemon despite being heavily injured and poisoned. Ash-Greninja's on screen battles were 1x1s:

v. Avalugg = loss
v. Mega Abomasnow = win
v. Mega Sceptile = win
v. Mega Charizard = loss

All of these Pokemon had spent energy or were injured. In these 1x1s Ash-Greninja was only able to post a .5 record.

From how fans usually portray Ash-Greninja's strength, one would think Mega Sceptile = Latios. That's laughable. The power advantage of being a Mega is counterbalanced by Battle Bond, so it's not like Greninja was facing overwhelming odds like when Infernape was against Electivire.

Lol only an idiot will compare strength with win percentage, with that stupi logic sceptile is weaker than oshoatt since it has less %, the win percentage of kalos members are less because except for noivern all the members have good wins unlike sinnoh which basically became infernape show.
As for infernape vs paul he defeated two of paul's weak pokemon the only worthy pokemon he defeated was eletivire and to be fair electivire is no where near the level of maga abomasnow, MS and MCX so basically AG faced much superior opponents than infernape, as for megas they you may like it or not but the anime did put megas much superior to base pokemon. MS may not be equal to latios but it was around that level, so no kalos team definitely is superior to sinnoh team.

I think some of the opponents Ash's fought in Kalos were of stronger stuff though. They may have had less wins but Noivern and Goodra aside, the rest still put on a stronger showing then Sinnoh's

I thought being years series saved the rest, had it been a 4 years saga all other kalos team would have had same fate as sinnoh which was infenape show in last years as opposed to 1 year show of AG, as for noivern and goodra nivern was captured very late (ep 76 of 140 episodes is late) not to mention its capture was overshadowed by eevee a cash cow pokemon which totally took all the limelight from it, as fo goodra it stayed for very short time so it did not have time fo do any feats.

 

[Doppelgänger]

Sawyer (implied to have received training from Steven, and got his Sceptilite from him) >>>Barry

Sawyer got his Treecko from Professor Birch, like all beginning trainers from Hoenn, and there's no way any training from before his journey started is going to outweigh Barry's experience. Barry's father is a Frontier Brain.

Sawyer's early struggles with Treecko and Bagon suggest that Steven's role was likely more inspirational than instructive.

Alain (league rookie, but way more experienced as a trainer than Paul)

There is no evidence for this. Alain wasn't even shown to have more than one Pokemon until viewers were introduced to his Metang, which wasn't fully evolved yet. After evolution, that Metagross was able to beat four Pokemon on Remo's team:

-Granbull
-Bouffalant
-Pelipper
-Gurdurr

Metagross has a type advantage against all of these Pokemon, but it's hard for and rare to see a Pokemon go 4-1. Tobias' Darkrai only went 3-1 against Ash.

Does this mean Alain's other team members are strong? Maybe, but for a Pokemon leveled so quickly in a short period of time, the common sense answer is that Remo is weak, since he obviously has a Mega/pseudo he can lean on as a crutch. That Mega almost certainly carried him through the early rounds of the league.

Astrid and Remo are like Conway, where we don't know about them, but they seem established ME trainers. If Conway is being considered experienced, then so are Remo and Astrid.

Conway wasn't stated to have league experience. Mega Evolution doesn't make Remo or Astrid strong trainers if the rest of their team is weak; it only means they have a single strong Pokemon.

This isn't unique to Kalos. Unova, and especially Alola, frequently show shallow teams with one over-leveled main Pokemon. The trainers with deeper, balanced teams tend to be the ones who go further in the league.

So yeah, SL trainers were 'so much more experienced'.

You missed the point I was trying to make: Every league has rookies, but Unova and Kalos didn't have veterans.

The only veteran in those two leagues was Ash. Ironically, Alola has three in Ash, Ilima and Kukui.

 

[R0shan]

Gible was caught at the end of sinnoh and sinnoh had one year extra so it should not be counted, we dont know ash's kalos team could have even better feats if it had one extra yea, as for talonflame it was used in 7 out of 8 gyms and also some very good wins it definitely is far superior to straptor who stuggled in every battle, as for torterra it lost to every opponent despite having a type advantage, it is on par with goodra.

I don't know if that should count against Sinnoh though. Since Sinnoh had an extra year of episodes, the pacing was slower and with more fillers. If DP was 3 years like XY, I am sure the same development and Gible's capture would have been crammed into that time period.

Staraptor had some respectable wins of its own though too, such as Candice's Medicham, Paul's Weavile, and Nando's Roserade.

 

[Lunanight]

Sawyer got his Treecko from Professor Birch, like all beginning trainers from Hoenn, and there's no way any training from before his journey started is going to outweigh Barry's experience. Barry's father is a Frontier Brain.

Palmer being a Frontier Brain actually makes Barry look even less competent, since Barry was an inferior trainer than Sawyer despite having a Frontier Brain for a father. Most trainers aren't fortunate enough to have a Frontier Brain for a father to give them early experience. By contrast, Sawyer was an average beginner with no prior experience like Barry had. Its not quite as bad as Dawn being outclassed by the less-experienced Zoey (and even Nando) despite having a Top Coordinator mother.

Despite his family background, Barry got beat 3-0 pretty easily by Paul (and would have lost even faster if Paul just sent out Electivire first). The difference between Sawyer and Barry is that even without Mega Evolution, Sceptile would beat Electivire 1v1 before losing to Magmortar. The gap between Sceptile and Ursaring/Magmortar is slightly bigger than the gap between Electivire and Barry's Empoleon, so neither would damage Sceptile (let alone beat it) unless Electivire weakened Sceptile first.

XY Ash could probably beat Barry 3-0 without even using Pikachu or Greninja, if he switches twice like Paul did. Base Greninja or Pikachu would solo Barry 3-0 either way.

Metagross has a type advantage against all of these Pokemon, but it's hard for and rare to see a Pokemon go 4-1. Tobias' Darkrai only went 3-1 against Ash.

Does this mean Alain's other team members are strong? Maybe, but for a Pokemon leveled so quickly in a short period of time, the common sense answer is that Remo is weak, since he obviously has a Mega/pseudo he can lean on as a crutch. That Mega almost certainly carried him through the early rounds of the league.

I agree that Remo probably relied heavily on his Mega Garchomp, though it being a pseudo is irrelevant since being a pseudo has never meant anything past the original series. I doubt Remo's other Pokemon were completely weak Pokemon since even Sawyer had strong Pokemon like Aegislash and Clawitzer despite how strong his Sceptile was, so I'd expect Remo to have at least 1-2 strong Pokemon aside from Garchomp.

Also, if Ash sent out Swellow against Darkrai prior to Sceptile, then Darkrai would have also gone 4-1 against Ash. That doesn't say much given that Darkrai is stronger than Alain's Metagross, and Darkrai would go at least 4-1 against Alain's first four Pokemon before losing to Metagross. Even if Alain's Metagross beat 4 of Remo's Pokemon, it doesn't automatically make the rest of Remo's team weak since Metagross could do the same to Ash's Noivern, Goodra, Talonflame, and Hawlucha.
needs to win.

You missed the point I was trying to make: Every league has rookies, but Unova and Kalos didn't have veterans.

The only veteran in those two leagues was Ash. Ironically, Alola has three in Ash, Ilima and Kukui.

While nobody in Kalos League was a veteran, I can say that nobody in the Kanto, Johto, Hoenn, and Sinnoh Leagues had any E4-level Pokemon aside from Tobias and DP Ash (Peakachu, Charizard, and Sceptile were only on-par with E4 non-aces). Not counting Ash of course, only Alain (Charizard/MCX), Tobias (Darkrai), Sawyer (Mega Sceptile), or Remo (Mega Garchomp) have any chance against an E4 ace 1v1, and only Alain could beat an E4 Mega Ace using MCX.

The only Leagues with actual veterans was the Johto League (Gary and Harrison), Sinnoh League (Paul and Tobias), and questionably the Alola League (Ilima, despite how weak he was). Kukui doesn't really count as a veteran IMO since he's the title match as the Masked Royal, not a competitor himself.

The Kanto League was mostly beginners using stuff like Bellsprout, Nidorino, and Ivysaur, let alone most of Ash and Ritchie's Pokemon. Hoenn League never had any veterans at all since Tyson is heavily implied to just be a skilled beginner similar to Sawyer (given Tyson's close battle against HL Ash and using the same six Pokemon throughout), Morrison was blatantly a beginner, and Katie was at best equal to Kalos League Astrid (who was much, much weaker than Act 1 Astrid) and even Astrid wasn't a veteran.