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Alain vs Paul; Battle Of The Strongest!

Choose Every Statement That You Agree With


  • Total voters
    72

Doppelgänger

Superancient Member
Palmer being a Frontier Brain actually makes Barry look even less competent, since Barry was an inferior trainer than Sawyer despite having a Frontier Brain for a father. Most trainers aren't fortunate enough to have a Frontier Brain for a father to give them early experience. By contrast, Sawyer was an average beginner with no prior experience like Barry had. Its not quite as bad as Dawn being outclassed by the less-experienced Zoey (and even Nando) despite having a Top Coordinator mother.

Despite his family background, Barry got beat 3-0 pretty easily by Paul (and would have lost even faster if Paul just sent out Electivire first). The difference between Sawyer and Barry is that even without Mega Evolution, Sceptile would beat Electivire 1v1 before losing to Magmortar. The gap between Sceptile and Ursaring/Magmortar is slightly bigger than the gap between Electivire and Barry's Empoleon, so neither would damage Sceptile (let alone beat it) unless Electivire weakened Sceptile first.

Barry was introduced with a fully evolved Empoleon, and losing to Paul isn't a negative. I don't understand what you're trying to say. Sawyer was better at the end, no question, but you were talking about the beginning.

XY Ash could probably beat Barry 3-0 without even using Pikachu or Greninja, if he switches twice like Paul did. Base Greninja or Pikachu would solo Barry 3-0 either way.

Talonflame, Noivern, Ice Beam Goodra vs Empoleon?

Really?

And Greninja never 2-0 anything, let alone 3-0. We can't assume a feat like that without a similar one, and Greninja doesn't sweep teams.

I agree that Remo probably relied heavily on his Mega Garchomp, though it being a pseudo is irrelevant since being a pseudo has never meant anything past the original series. I doubt Remo's other Pokemon were completely weak Pokemon since even Sawyer had strong Pokemon like Aegislash and Clawitzer despite how strong his Sceptile was, so I'd expect Remo to have at least 1-2 strong Pokemon aside from Garchomp.

We know through observation that the anime respects both pseudos and legends; they've portrayed as rare and powerful when they've appeared, legends moreso. Special tactics, powers or sheer numbers are necessary to bring them down. Aside from Goodra, at least.

That said, you're probably right that Mega Garchomp wasn't treated as a Mega pseudo, but simply another Dragon-type Mega to flounder before Alain. It's weakness might be a reference to Mega Garchomp's lower speed, and Mega Charizard X usually does beat it in that environment.

Even if Alain's Metagross beat 4 of Remo's Pokemon, it doesn't automatically make the rest of Remo's team weak since Metagross could do the same to Ash's Noivern, Goodra, Talonflame, and Hawlucha.
needs to win.

That's possible, since Tyson's Metagross beat Grovyle and Swellow, before losing to Pikachu. Metagross IS a pseudo and pseudos are generally portrayed as threatening.

But we can't call Kalos Ash's strongest team if a pseudo can body two of his Pokemon. That happened in Hoenn, Unova, meaning the rest of the team is around that power level. Needing Pikachu to solo Tyranitar and Metagross so they don't wipe out the Flying-types isn't a good look for anyone but Pikachu.

While nobody in Kalos League was a veteran, I can say that nobody in the Kanto, Johto, Hoenn, and Sinnoh Leagues had any E4-level Pokemon aside from Tobias and DP Ash (Peakachu, Charizard, and Sceptile were only on-par with E4 non-aces). Not counting Ash of course, only Alain (Charizard/MCX), Tobias (Darkrai), Sawyer (Mega Sceptile), or Remo (Mega Garchomp) have any chance against an E4 ace 1v1, and only Alain could beat an E4 Mega Ace using MCX.

Most teams have aces or at least "boss" Pokemon. Sinnoh+ Ash has had two since Pikachu only really started to become a wrecking ball in Hoenn.

Unova Ash had Krookodile, who has better feats than Greninja, defeating Iris' Dragonite and especially Stephan's monstrous Sawk. But many of Ash's other Unova Pokemon, like Oshawott, weren't strong at all. It's perplexing to call Unova Ash's weakest team when Krookodile, Pignite and Pikachu were all respectable, no? But that is a common complaint.

People don't compare the aces, they make unsubstantiated claims about the whole team. Ash's strongest team doesn't have Goodra or Noivern.

The Kanto League was mostly beginners using stuff like Bellsprout, Nidorino, and Ivysaur, let alone most of Ash and Ritchie's Pokemon. Hoenn League never had any veterans at all since Tyson is heavily implied to just be a skilled beginner similar to Sawyer (given Tyson's close battle against HL Ash and using the same six Pokemon throughout), Morrison was blatantly a beginner, and Katie was at best equal to Kalos League Astrid (who was much, much weaker than Act 1 Astrid) and even Astrid wasn't a veteran.

Ritchie and Cameron aside, Ash inevitably ended up battling those veteran trainers as he progressed through the tournament, because veterans are more likely to win.
 

PokemonKnight

#1 Sylveon Fan
People need to remember that Ash rarely sweeps or beats opponents (much less rivals) by a lopsided score. He is the protagonist, and for the sake of drama, his matches are usually nail-biters. Which means, Pikachu, one regional ace, and a bunch of Pokemon with .500 or worst records. Rivals are allowed to dominate 3-0 and the one time when Ash was allowed to blow through the League (Kalos), his opening matches were largely skipped. Not to mention, Ash's Pokemon are at the mercy of storylines. Ash-Greninja's win-loss rate was sacrificed for drama while Infernape and Charizard were boosted by their storylines and picked up loads of wins. Awesome for them as they each picked THREE wins in the rival battle but Ash-Greninja wasn't allotted the same treatment. And plain win percentage is misleading. What Pokemon were fought is more important. Who did you beat?

Anyway, answering the question of the two writers' pets. Alain wins easily assuming the writers are playing fair (Paul got loads of plot armor in DP. The 3-0 Barry match was contrived crap). Paul's strategy and tactics are overrated, and Mega Charizard just brings too much power to the table. And Alain's tactics are overlooked. Alain is near the level of an Elite 4 teacher and his ace can beat a E4 member. Paul was trashed by Cynthia and Brandon completely wiped the floor with him.
 

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Well-Known Member
Anyway, answering the question of the two writers' pets.
Oh wow...
(Paul got loads of plot armor in DP.
Name em'
The 3-0 Barry match was contrived crap).
Not really,Paul planned his battle out,Electivire,Ursaring and Magmortar are his strongest pokemon and are legit tanks.He cleverly switched and made sacrifices.Barry put all his eggs in one basket in Empoleon,his Hitmonlee got in a lot of good hits but it clearly was too weak for Ursaring and didn't get the job done.Paul 3-0'ed a trainer prior to beating Barry btw (League Unleashed)
Paul's strategy and tactics are overrated
Did you not watch all of Paul's battles in DP?
Alain's tactics are overlooked.
Skill wise he's no better than a Tyson/Gary/Harrison were.Paul,Conway,Katie and Sawyer are all above him when it comes to tactics/strategies.
Alain is near the level of an Elite 4 teacher and his ace can beat a E4 member.
Can you still say the same thing when it's not using Mega Evolution though?How much stronger is it compared to Ash's Charizard in it's base form?Can it beat Flint's Infernape in it's base form?
Paul was trashed by Cynthia and Brandon completely wiped the floor with him.
This is the weakest argument anybody on here can make to try and take down Paul as a trainer and make an argument that he's weak it never holds up.Paul went up against arguably the strongest champion in the world in Cynthia using Torterra,Murkrow,Weavile,Elekid,Chimchar and Ursaring.He went int that battle not trying to beat Cynthia but wanting Chimchar's Hax Blaze to activate and probably for other personal reasons having to do with his pokemon.Paul wanted to beat Brandon but he went in without a plan considering the team was intended for the gym leader Candice.His pokemon were not at the highest level they were at the end of DP and Paul let his emotions get the better of him.But the biggest reason is that Brandon was using all 3 Regis at the same time while also switching them out,Ash only had to deal with one of them in a battle.
 

Saraneon

Member
I think the main problem to this is: we don't know how far Paul has come since Sinnoh.
For all we know, during Kalos when Ash was battling Alain, Paul had become the Champion of some region!
(It's impossible but still, you get the picture) It's unrealistic to expect him to be at the same level that he was during Sinnoh League, so it's fair to assume that Paul is probably stronger now than he was the last time we saw him.

Then again, Alain is a very good trainer. He defeated a member of an Elite Four and held his own against Steven. So I think with Mega Evolution, he will most likely win against Paul. But without Mega Evolution, Paul stands a chance. And I don't think Paul will get swept utterly by Mega Charizard X though we will never find out.

At the end of the day, I prefer Paul as a character over Alain so... But I'm trying to make a fair judgement here. So let's just say both are great trainers :)
 

Applecorp

Well-Known Member
Alain would probably beat Paul with Mega Charizard but who knows if Paul would have his own Mega or maybe a Gigantamax'd Pokemon then he might tie or beat Alain. :D
 

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Well-Known Member
I think the main problem to this is: we don't know how far Paul has come since Sinnoh.
For all we know, during Kalos when Ash was battling Alain, Paul had become the Champion of some region!
(It's impossible but still, you get the picture) It's unrealistic to expect him to be at the same level that he was during Sinnoh League, so it's fair to assume that Paul is probably stronger now than he was the last time we saw him.

Hypothetically Paul would still be an active trainer competing in other leagues trying to win,we already know he went back to Snowpoint City to request a rematch with the Pyramid King Brandon but it was never shown on screen.Initially there was suppose to be a special episode involving that but got canceled due to the amount of hate Paul was receiving at the time.

Ash traveled to Kalos/Alola where Mega Evolution/Z-Move were being used by other trainers.Who is to say Paul wouldn't use the same things if given the opportunity?In DP he always took advantage of any source of power available and that includes capturing powerful pokemon in the wild,scanning their movesets with a pokedex,and using their abilities in the midst of battles.The guy is also a hard worker,multiple occasions he was shown on screen training his pokemon (even during night time) and the results showed in his battles with how much they improved.Adding Z-Move and Mega Evolution on top of that would just be insane.


Then again, Alain is a very good trainer. He defeated a member of an Elite Four and held his own against Steven. So I think with Mega Evolution, he will most likely win against Paul. But without Mega Evolution, Paul stands a chance. And I don't think Paul will get swept utterly by Mega Charizard X though we will never find out.
With his strongest pokemon he definitely has a chance but I personally think he'd win if Alain were to not use Mega Evolution.I truly don't believe his Charizard in it's base form is that much more powerful than Ash's Charizard but I could be wrong.

Alain would probably beat Paul with Mega Charizard but who knows if Paul would have his own Mega or maybe a Gigantamax'd Pokemon then he might tie or beat Alain. :D

Mega Aggron anyone?
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Kuzehiko

That moment I found a lifetime treasure
I think it depends on the scenario.
With Mega evo Alain wins this, no contest but Paul might have got a chance of winning if mega evo is not allowed here. Even if we assume and give Paul a mega evo for any of his Pokemon, we wouldn't know how strong said mega is given the fact that it'd be featless. So Alain wins 3-1 out of all scenarios IMO.
 

SerGoldenhandtheJust

Both Volo and Cynthia can beat me up ;)
he went back to Snowpoint City to request a rematch with the Pyramid King Brandon but it was never shown on screen.Initially there was suppose to be a special episode involving that but got canceled due to the amount of hate Paul was receiving at the time.
Do you have any source for that or are you just making up things?
 

Saraneon

Member
Do you have any source for that or are you just making up things?

At the end of the episode "Battling a Thaw in Relations" Paul said he was going to head to Snowpoint City and rebattle Brandon. I'm not too sure about the source of the special episode but I've seen it somewhere as well that the episode was never aired. I'm not too sure of the reason but I heard that it was because DP kind of overrun and BW was supposed to be airing soon so they cut short a lot of episodes. <-- This may or may not be true though. XD
 

Ragnarok4

Currently hidden in the mysterious Glimwood Tangle
imo, Alain without Mega stone = DP Ash
i mean,
Charizard = Infernape
Unfezant ≥ Staraptor
¿Tyranitar = Torterra?
Weavile = Buizel
Metagross < Pikachu
Bisharp > Gliscor

We could pose different combinations and most cases would surely be a draw, so

Alain wiithout Mega Stone = Paul
 

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Well-Known Member
imo, Alain without Mega stone = DP Ash
i mean,
Charizard = Infernape
Unfezant ≥ Staraptor
¿Tyranitar = Torterra?
Weavile = Buizel
Metagross < Pikachu
Bisharp > Gliscor

We could pose different combinations and most cases would surely be a draw, so

Alain wiithout Mega Stone = Paul
So to you Alain's base Charizard would be on the level of Infernape?Paul has Drapion,Torterra and Electivire.

His Unfezant only managed to draw against Ash's Talonflame and I have Swellow as his strongest bird pokemon who I have below Paul's Honchkrow.

You have Tyranitar equal to Ash's Torterra so that would mean it's tier 3 level.

Weavile also tier 3 level

Metagross was impressive showed a lot of speed and agility for it's size,XY Pikachu edges it out.

Bisharp tier 2 level

Seeing as Paul is the superior battler/planner and has many powerhouses at his disposal I think it's safe to say Paul could beat Alain if he isn't using Mega Evolution
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul is 100% beating Alain using this team

Torterra
Electivire
Drapion
Ursaring
Magmortar
Honchkrow
 

Ragnarok4

Currently hidden in the mysterious Glimwood Tangle
So to you Alain's base Charizard would be on the level of Infernape?Paul has Drapion,Torterra and Electivire.

His Unfezant only managed to draw against Ash's Talonflame and I have Swellow as his strongest bird pokemon who I have below Paul's Honchkrow.

You have Tyranitar equal to Ash's Torterra so that would mean it's tier 3 level.

Weavile also tier 3 level

Metagross was impressive showed a lot of speed and agility for it's size,XY Pikachu edges it out.

Bisharp tier 2 level

Seeing as Paul is the superior battler/planner and has many powerhouses at his disposal I think it's safe to say Paul could beat Alain if he isn't using Mega Evolution
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul is 100% beating Alain using this team

Torterra
Electivire
Drapion
Ursaring
Magmortar
Honchkrow
I don't think so, besides Bisharp is a pretty strong Pokémon, since it defeated Hawlucha and Goodra. Honchkrow > Swellow? How?
 

Ragnarok4

Currently hidden in the mysterious Glimwood Tangle
I wouldn't even dare to calculate the strength of 10MV, it seems like a friendship power or something
 

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Well-Known Member
I don't think so, besides Bisharp is a pretty strong Pokémon, since it defeated Hawlucha and Goodra. Honchkrow > Swellow? How?
Bisharp is tier 2 at best,I don't see it doing better than Ash's Bulbasaur/Heracross/Glalie/Krookodile.

Honchkrow
-Easily defeated gym leader Maylene's Machoke/Meditite
-Stomped Ash's Grotle on 2 different ocassions
-One shotted a reigning pokeringer champion's Dragonite
-Super Luck ability increases the critical hit ratio

Eyetest suggests Honchkrow has more firepower and durability while Swellow has more speed.Honchkrow never showed signs of fatigue in battle and it's only on screen loss was against the Sinnoh Champion Cynthia's Garchomp.Also add in the fact that Paul puts all his pokemon through a tough training regimen, Hoenn Ash put his Swellow through training but not to the extent that Paul did with his pokemon.Everything Swellow did in the Hoenn gyms and league battles Honchkrow could do as well,my only complaint was when it drew to Morrison's Gligar who already defeated Ash's Grovyle, you'd think Swellow would be strong enough to KO it.So overall I'd personally take Honchkrow over Swellow but it wouldn't be by a lot because I think both are in the tier 2 range.
 

Ragnarok4

Currently hidden in the mysterious Glimwood Tangle
Bisharp is tier 2 at best,I don't see it doing better than Ash's Bulbasaur/Heracross/Glalie/Krookodile.

Honchkrow
-Easily defeated gym leader Maylene's Machoke/Meditite
-Stomped Ash's Grotle on 2 different ocassions
-One shotted a reigning pokeringer champion's Dragonite
-Super Luck ability increases the critical hit ratio

Eyetest suggests Honchkrow has more firepower and durability while Swellow has more speed.Honchkrow never showed signs of fatigue in battle and it's only on screen loss was against the Sinnoh Champion Cynthia's Garchomp.Also add in the fact that Paul puts all his pokemon through a tough training regimen, Hoenn Ash put his Swellow through training but not to the extent that Paul did with his pokemon.Everything Swellow did in the Hoenn gyms and league battles Honchkrow could do as well,my only complaint was when it drew to Morrison's Gligar who already defeated Ash's Grovyle, you'd think Swellow would be strong enough to KO it.So overall I'd personally take Honchkrow over Swellow but it wouldn't be by a lot because I think both are in the tier 2 range.
Defeating Ash Grotle is not the best you can show off as a Pokémon, imo
If anything, Paul was very foolish to prefer a weak Aggron over Honckrow
 

Ragnarok4

Currently hidden in the mysterious Glimwood Tangle
Why do you choose Magmortar and Ursaring over Gastrodon?
 

PokemonBattleFanatic-

Well-Known Member
Defeating Ash Grotle is not the best you can show off as a Pokémon, imo
If anything, Paul was very foolish to prefer a weak Aggron over Honckrow
Yeah but that's not Honchkrow's fault it still got the job done and with plenty to spare.The writers didn't want Paul using his stronger pokemon against Ash at the League.
Why do you choose Magmortar and Ursaring over Gastrodon?
Asking why I choose Ursaring over Gastrodon is a silly question but because Ursaring swept through half of Ash's team at Lake Acuity,Bulk Up increases it's attack/defense,if it's burned,poisoned or paralyzed it's Guts ability activates which makes it even stronger.Ash's Pikachu used Thunder Bolt on it and Ursaring just took it like a boss and came back with hammer arm.Against Barry it took everything his Hitmonlee threw at it but despite that Ursaring still won,it also took it's own focus blast without fainting after it was deflected back by Barry's Empoleon.The best Gastrodon could do was give Staraptor trouble and then get defeated by Buizel.The most impressive thing it did was sit on top of Staraptor to set up water pulse.Paul trained it to use Muddy Water as a counter shield but it didn't really matter against Buizel.

Magmortar is weaker than Ursaring but it's still higher than Gastrodon.

Magmortar
-Defeated Maylene's Ace Lucario
-Uses Rock Tomb as a defensive wall (even for suprise attacks)
-Stalemated Pikachu's Thunder Bolt while using Flamethrower
-Flame Body Ability inflicts burn damage on opponent when there's physical contact
-Took An Iron Tail,Quick Attack and Aqua Jet without fanting
-One shotted Barry's Skarmory
-Took Empoleon's Hydro Cannon without fainting


What's your argument for Swellow over Honchkrow?

What's your argument for Gastrodon over Magmortar/Ursaring?
 
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