Alain vs Paul; Battle Of The Strongest!

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

1.Charizard





2.Torterra
3.Electivire
4.Drapion
5.Ursaring
6.Garchomp
-----------------------
7.Metagross (Alain)
8.Magmortar
9.Bisharp
10.Gyarados
11.Honchkrow
12.Unfezant
13.Tyranitar
14.Nidoking
15.Gliscor
16.Hariyama
-----------------------
17.Metagross (Paul)
18.Aggron
19.Froslass
20.Gastrodon
21.Ninjask
22.Weavile (Alain)
23.Weavile (Paul)

@GLTSRY what would you change about this ranking?

 

[GLTSRY]

1.Charizard





2.Torterra
3.Electivire
4.Drapion
5.Ursaring
6.Garchomp
-----------------------
7.Metagross (Alain)
8.Magmortar
9.Bisharp
10.Gyarados
11.Honchkrow
12.Unfezant
13.Tyranitar
14.Nidoking
15.Gliscor
16.Hariyama
-----------------------
17.Metagross (Paul)
18.Aggron
19.Froslass
20.Gastrodon
21.Ninjask
22.Weavile (Alain)
23.Weavile (Paul)

@GLTSRY what would you change about this ranking?

As a preface: I don’t really like such absolute numerical rankings and prefer more flexible tier systems. Also, I‘d like to make a detailed explanation for my choices, but that would take too much time right now and is probably more of a long term project (collaboration incoming?)

Thus, I‘ll just mention some points where I disagree strongly:

Gyarados and Paul’s Metagross should be higher imo. Even though they lost their respective battles, they lost against Lucario and Gengar, who are comfortably in Ash’s top 10.

Alain’s Tyranitar should be lower. Yes, it’s a pseudo and it’s stronger now than back in XY, but it showed a pathetic performance against a (undoubtedly strong) Pikachu. On the flip side, I’d rank Alain’s Metagross higher. It was used to sweep the league and was clowning on Peakachu. If not for Ash’s smart thinking, Pikachu would’ve been defeated.

Likewise, I’d rate Bisharp higher, at least higher than Magmortar, for defeating Goodra and Hawlucha despite the bad match-up.

Of course, there are some other tweaks I’d do here and there, but those were my biggest changes. By the way, I’d argue that Electivire surpassed Torterra as of JN. It was roaming freely in episode 114, something that Torterra used to do in DP if I remember correctly. Paul and Electivire also had similar personalities, so I could see him becoming his new ace.

Anyways, as for my quick tier list (more of a rough sketch really, without detailed explanations)

Tier 0: MC-X
Tier 1: Electivire, Torterra
Tier 1.5: Garchomp, Gyarados, Alain’s Metagross, Chestnaught
Tier 2: Drapion, Ursaring, Paul’s Metagross, Bisharp, Malamar*
Tier 3: Magmortar, Honchkrow, Unfezant, Nidoking, Gliscor, Hariyama
Tier 4: Aggron, Froslass, Gastrodon, Ninjask, Weaviles, Tyranitar

The only area where we disagree, besides Alain’s Tyranitar, seems to be Tier 1.5 and 2. I’ll make a more detailed explanation for those choices later on, but please keep in mind that the tiers are flexible and that I don’t say that Malamar = Drapion, but that both Pokémon should be around the same level of strength/competency and thus more comparable to each other than Electivire and Tyranitar.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Gyarados and Paul’s Metagross should be higher imo. Even though they lost their respective battles, they lost against Lucario and Gengar, who are comfortably in Ash’s top 10.

But how does that equate to them being higher than Drapion and Ursaring?

I’d rank Alain’s Metagross higher. It was used to sweep the league and was clowning on Peakachu. If not for Ash’s smart thinking, Pikachu would’ve been defeated.

Okay

Likewise, I’d rate Bisharp higher, at least higher than Magmortar, for defeating Goodra and Hawlucha despite the bad match-up.

Okay that's fair but we didn't get to see more of Magmortar in the Lake Acuity battle or against Barry due to Paul recalling it.Bisharp being higer than Magmortar?Sure but for tier rankings I'd have both of them in the same tier,I don't believe Bisharp has more firepower than Magmortar nor do I believe it can take more punishment.

Of course, there are some other tweaks I’d do here and there, but those were my biggest changes. By the way, I’d argue that Electivire surpassed Torterra as of JN. It was roaming freely in episode 114, something that Torterra used to do in DP if I remember correctly. Paul and Electivire also had similar personalities, so I could see him becoming his new ace.

I don't think that's enough to prove how Electivire is over Torterra but we do know that since early DP it's always been around Paul so much that it's fair to say that it's Paul's signature pokemon like when it came to Ash/Pikachu.I always saw Paul's Torterra as a pokemon he'd use for special occasions like against Cynthia's Garchomp which would explain why we rarely saw it battle.

Tier 0: MC-X
Tier 1: Electivire, Torterra
Tier 1.5: Garchomp, Gyarados, Alain’s Metagross, Chestnaught
Tier 2: Drapion, Ursaring, Paul’s Metagross, Bisharp, Malamar*
Tier 3: Magmortar, Honchkrow, Unfezant, Nidoking, Gliscor, Hariyama
Tier 4: Aggron, Froslass, Gastrodon, Ninjask, Weaviles, Tyranitar

The only area where we disagree, besides Alain’s Tyranitar, seems to be Tier 1.5 and 2. I’ll make a more detailed explanation for those choices later on, but please keep in mind that the tiers are flexible and that I don’t say that Malamar = Drapion, but that both Pokémon should be around the same level of strength/competency and thus more comparable to each other than Electivire and Tyranitar.

Tier 0 - (Charizard)
Tier 1 - (Torterra) (Electivire)
Tier 1.5 - (Garchomp) (Alain's Metagross) (Chestnaught) (Drapion) (Ursaring)
Tier 2 - (Bisharp) (Malamar) (Magmortar) (Honchkrow) (Paul's Metagross) (Unfezant) (Nidoking) (Gliscor) (Hariyama)
Tier 3 - (Aggron) (Froslass) (Gastrodon) (Ninjask) (Alain's Weavile) (Paul's Weavile) (Tyranitar)

I honestly believe Ursaring/Drapion were bigger monsters than Bisharp based off their performances at Lake Acuity/Sinnoh League.Drapion was so powerful that it felt like an actual ace of Paul's and some including myself thought it previously belonged to his brother Reggie.Ursaring was an absolute bruiser and there was extra emphasis on that in it's bout with Barry's Hitmonlee.

It took it's own Focus Blast when Ash's Buizel deflected it back using Counter Shield and when Barry's Empoleon deflected it with it's flipper and Ursaring did not faint in either of those situations.Lastly I cannot see either one of them losing so quickly and easily to Ash's Gengar the way his Metagross did but it may be due to time restraint of the episode.

 

[GLTSRY]

But how does that equate to them being higher than Drapion and Ursaring?

My reasoning: Drapion’s biggest feat was taking out 3 of Ash’s Pokémon in the Sinnoh league. A fantastic feat for sure, but the Pokémon in question were 3 of Ash’s weaker DP mons. Likewise, Ursaring took down 2 Pokémon in the Lake Acuity battle and defeated Barry’s Hitmonlee - good feats for sure, and over time, both definitely became stronger.

However, Gyarados managed to cause problems to base Lucario, who managed to knock out two of Volkner’s Pokémon and is on his way to becoming one of, if not the, strongest Pokémon Ash owns. Likewise, Metagross made a fool out of Gengar who defeated 2 of Raihan’s Pokémon and defeated Marnie’s Grimmsnarl.

In short, the quality of the feats of Metagross and Gyarados are imo higher than the ones of Drapion and Ursaring and this gap can’t be closed fully by the longer time the latter 2 have been training under Paul. Thus, half a tier of difference.

Okay that's fair but we didn't get to see more of Magmortar in the Lake Acuity battle or against Barry due to Paul recalling it.Bisharp being higer than Magmortar?Sure but for tier rankings I'd have both of them in the same tier,I don't believe Bisharp has more firepower than Magmortar nor do I believe it can take more punishment.

Bisharp was used to defeat multiple opponents due to a smart strategy, similar to Drapion and Ursaring. It may be more of a glass canon, but that doesn’t change the fact that Alain trusted it enough to fight against Hawlucha, who is 4x effective and defeated a Mega Absol on its own. Again, I rate the quality of feats of Bisharp higher than Magmortar, who doesn’t really have such feats.

I honestly believe Ursaring/Drapion were bigger monsters than Bisharp based off their performances at Lake Acuity/Sinnoh League.Drapion was so powerful that it felt like an actual ace of Paul's and some including myself thought it previously belonged to his brother Reggie.Ursaring was an absolute bruiser and there was extra emphasis on that in it's bout with Barry's Hitmonlee.

It took it's own Focus Blast when Ash's Buizel deflected it back using Counter Shield and when Barry's Empoleon deflected it with it's flipper and Ursaring did not faint in either of those situations.Lastly I cannot see either one of them losing so quickly and easily to Ash's Gengar the way his Metagross did but it may be due to time restraint of the episode.

Like I said, I rate the quality of opponents that Bisharp defeated higher than Ash’s DP team, hence me putting them in the same tier.

As for Paul’s Metagross: JN battles end after a few hits, so you have to take this into consideration. Besides, Gengar was strong enough to one-shot Raihan’s Goodra, so it possesses spectacular offensive capabilities.

 

[Kage-Pikachu]

Alain's Ace definitely beats Paul's aces in my opinion. They both have powerful pokemon but Paul is similar to Diantha in battling styles whereas Alain is similar to Lance and relies a lot on overwhelming power and little to no team work between his other Pokemon. As long as Alain doesn't start the match with Mega Charizard X, i believe Paul will have the advantage initially and then Alain will bounce back with his pseudo legendaries or Chesnaught/Bisharp. Though I can imagine Bisharp using Thunderwave on Ursaring and causing lots of problems for Alain.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

Alain's Ace definitely beats Paul's aces in my opinion. They both have powerful pokemon but Paul is similar to Diantha in battling styles whereas Alain is similar to Lance and relies a lot on overwhelming power and little to no team work between his other Pokemon. As long as Alain doesn't start the match with Mega Charizard X, i believe Paul will have the advantage initially and then Alain will bounce back with his pseudo legendaries or Chesnaught/Bisharp. Though I can imagine Bisharp using Thunderwave on Ursaring and causing lots of problems for Alain.

Guys though

 

[Kage-Pikachu]

you mean Guts right? that's what i mean by Alain's Bisharp causing trouble by Thunderwave

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

My reasoning: Drapion’s biggest feat was taking out 3 of Ash’s Pokémon in the Sinnoh league. A fantastic feat for sure, but the Pokémon in question were 3 of Ash’s weaker DP mons. Likewise, Ursaring took down 2 Pokémon in the Lake Acuity battle and defeated Barry’s Hitmonlee - good feats for sure, and over time, both definitely became stronger.

However, Gyarados managed to cause problems to base Lucario, who managed to knock out two of Volkner’s Pokémon and is on his way to becoming one of, if not the, strongest Pokémon Ash owns. Likewise, Metagross made a fool out of Gengar who defeated 2 of Raihan’s Pokémon and defeated Marnie’s Grimmsnarl.

In short, the quality of the feats of Metagross and Gyarados are imo higher than the ones of Drapion and Ursaring and this gap can’t be closed fully by the longer time the latter 2 have been training under Paul. Thus, half a tier of difference.

Bisharp was used to defeat multiple opponents due to a smart strategy, similar to Drapion and Ursaring. It may be more of a glass canon, but that doesn’t change the fact that Alain trusted it enough to fight against Hawlucha, who is 4x effective and defeated a Mega Absol on its own. Again, I rate the quality of feats of Bisharp higher than Magmortar, who doesn’t really have such feats.

Like I said, I rate the quality of opponents that Bisharp defeated higher than Ash’s DP team, hence me putting them in the same tier.

As for Paul’s Metagross: JN battles end after a few hits, so you have to take this into consideration. Besides, Gengar was strong enough to one-shot Raihan’s Goodra, so it possesses spectacular offensive capabilities.

This is all while assuming Drapion and Ursaring aren't capable of pulling off these same feats and also not gone through any off screen training since their last appearance.Going by what you said Garchomp should be right next to Torterra/Electivire.

If people still rank Ash's reserves over his current team idk why I can't do the same for Paul's reserves.

Alain's Ace definitely beats Paul's aces in my opinion. They both have powerful pokemon but Paul is similar to Diantha in battling styles whereas Alain is similar to Lance and relies a lot on overwhelming power and little to no team work between his other Pokemon. As long as Alain doesn't start the match with Mega Charizard X, i believe Paul will have the advantage initially and then Alain will bounce back with his pseudo legendaries or Chesnaught/Bisharp. Though I can imagine Bisharp using Thunderwave on Ursaring and causing lots of problems for Alain.

Paul has aces,a strong balanced team and strategy.Throughout the years we've seen trainers that were good in either 1 or 2 of those categories but lacking in the 3rd or both.But Paul checks off all the boxes,between him and Alain it comes down to power vs strategy.Which is more lethal?Alain's OP MCX or Paul with prep time?

 

[GLTSRY]

If people still rank Ash's reserves over his current team idk why I can't do the same for Paul's reserves.

Which is something that I don’t agree with, because from an in-universe perspective, there’s no reason why Ash would use them over his reserves if his reserves really were stronger.

Paul has aces,a strong balanced team and strategy.Throughout the years we've seen trainers that were good in either 1 or 2 of those categories but lacking in the 3rd or both.But Paul checks off all the boxes,between him and Alain it comes down to power vs strategy.Which is more lethal?Alain's OP MCX or Paul with prep time?

Prep time can only help against opponents of similar strength. Base Charizard one-shotted the same Rillaboom that swept Diantha while tanking super effective hits or hits from her Gardevoir. His Rillaboom should be at least on the same level as the Tier 1.5 Pokémon we agreed on earlier, so it really would be uphill battle for Paul, especially if Alain decides to use Mega Evolution and further strengthen Charizards attack and defense.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Prep time can only help against opponents of similar strength. Base Charizard one-shotted the same Rillaboom that swept Diantha while tanking super effective hits or hits from her Gardevoir. His Rillaboom should be at least on the same level as the Tier 1.5 Pokémon we agreed on earlier, so it really would be uphill battle for Paul, especially if Alain decides to use Mega Evolution and further strengthen Charizards attack and defense.

So in short whenever Alain decides to bust out his Charizard the outcome will look a lot like Paul vs Brandon.

 

[GLTSRY]

So in short whenever Alain decides to bust out his Charizard the outcome will look a lot like Paul vs Brandon.

Basically.

How do you think Paul would do against against Lance/Steven/Iris?

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Basically.

How do you think Paul would do against against Lance/Steven/Iris?

That's a tough one,he did pretty well against Ash in their training battle yet Ash was able to defeat Steven in the M8.He should be able to defeat Iris if he goes all out.

 

[Kage-Pikachu]

Prep time can only help against opponents of similar strength. Base Charizard one-shotted the same Rillaboom that swept Diantha while tanking super effective hits or hits from her Gardevoir. His Rillaboom should be at least on the same level as the Tier 1.5 Pokémon we agreed on earlier, so it really would be uphill battle for Paul, especially if Alain decides to use Mega Evolution and further strengthen Charizards attack and defense.

i would give Mega Charizard X the advantage since he was able to solo gym leader challenge victors (lol, i have no idea what to call them anymore since winners of league conferences are differentiated from champions, i didn't realize until Journeys that they were different and was always confused about the status of the champion after the league). Paul utilized team work but Mega Charizard X's power was overwhelming on its own. this is a battle i really want to see!! reminds me of how we never saw Sasuke vs Neji or Neji vs Gaara, hehe, i always wanted to see those fights in Naruto.

 

[GLTSRY]

i would give Mega Charizard X the advantage since he was able to solo gym leader challenge victors (lol, i have no idea what to call them anymore since winners of league conferences are differentiated from champions, i didn't realize until Journeys that they were different and was always confused about the status of the champion after the league). Paul utilized team work but Mega Charizard X's power was overwhelming on its own. this is a battle i really want to see!! reminds me of how we never saw Sasuke vs Neji or Neji vs Gaara, hehe, i always wanted to see those fights in Naruto.

Neji vs Sasuke would’ve been cool, but Neji vs Gaara would be too one-sided. Neji can only fight at close distance, which is impossible against Gaara. He also doesn’t have the same speed as Lee to outpace Shukaku’s sand.

 

[Kage-Pikachu]

i always wondered if the Rotation jutsu could block Gaara's sand attacks and if Neji's Byakugan could aid in avoiding the moves since he was able to avoid every single blow from Naruto's many clones. but maybe he is too specialized after all to face Gaara.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Might Guy is lowkey the strongest in Part I

 

[GLTSRY]

i always wondered if the Rotation jutsu could block Gaara's sand attacks and if Neji's Byakugan could aid in avoiding the moves since he was able to avoid every single blow from Naruto's many clones. but maybe he is too specialized after all to face Gaara.

Don’t think so - he’d have to rotate non stop.

Might Guy is lowkey the strongest in Part I

I think you mean the strongest of the group leader Jonin, right?

Hard to tell really since he has no real feats prior the battle against fake Kisame at the beginning of Shipuden. He probably has the highest power output if he had access to 6 of the 8 gates back then, but it’s really hard to compare since Kakashi had a different fighting style and was more of an assassination specialist back then rather than someone who’d brute force his way through opponents.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Don’t think so - he’d have to rotate non stop.

I think you mean the strongest of the group leader Jonin, right?

Hard to tell really since he has no real feats prior the battle against fake Kisame at the beginning of Shipuden. He probably has the highest power output if he had access to 6 of the 8 gates back then, but it’s really hard to compare since Kakashi had a different fighting style and was more of an assassination specialist back then rather than someone who’d brute force his way through opponents.

Yes because since Guy didn't use the inner gates in part one I should automatically assume he couldn't use it or go beyond the 5th gate. The man literally brushed off Gaara's final attack like it was nothing at the Chunin Exams and also stated that he was stronger and faster than Kakashi.He may not be able to go 8th gate but there's no doubt in my mind that he could use the 6th and 7th.

 

[GLTSRY]

Yes because since Guy didn't use the inner gates in part one I should automatically assume he couldn't use it or go beyond the 5th gate.

Never said that.

The man literally brushed off Gaara's final attack like it was nothing at the Chunin Exams and also stated that he was stronger and faster than Kakashi.

As mentioned before, that’s kinda a non-argument since Gai specializes in Taijutsu

He may not be able to go 8th gate but there's no doubt in my mind that he could use the 6th and 7th.

The question is not if he could use it, the question is how much recoil damage he’d take. Similar to Naruto and Sasuke, Kakashi and Gai always received power ups more or less at the same time. Kakashi reawakened his MS during the time skip, so it’s fair to assume that Gai worked on the Inner Gates during that time.

 

[PokemonBattleFanatic-]

Never said that.

As mentioned before, that’s kinda a non-argument since Gai specializes in Taijutsu

The question is not if he could use it, the question is how much recoil damage he’d take. Similar to Naruto and Sasuke, Kakashi and Gai always received power ups more or less at the same time. Kakashi reawakened his MS during the time skip, so it’s fair to assume that Gai worked on the Inner Gates during that time.

So who do you got over Guy from part I?