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All Dragon Ball Discussion Thread (Discuss Z/GT/Kai etc. Here!)

Red and Blue

Well-Known Member
This arc is reminding me of the King Piccolo arc in more ways than one.

I might go so far as to say that where Dragon Ball is concerned, there's always another form.
Not always true. Jiren didn't transform
 

RedJirachi

Veteran member
The irony is that Broly, previously the poster boy for generic shonen juggernaut villains, might be most sympathetic and complex antagonist in all of Dragonball
 

Poke Trainer J

Well-Known Member
So this is one of the reasons why we will never go past the End of Z and how Dragon Ball Super was first conceived:
Toriyama: The women I draw all have the same sort of personality. I can't draw gentle girls; I only know how to draw ones who are strong-willed.

With the Dragon Ball Kanzenban, the series will be garnering new fans. And being fans, I think they will probably want to see some new Dragon Ball Z. How about it, Sensei - why not make a new animated work once a year or so?

Toriyama: Ah, I'd like to see that.

Nakatsuru: But in the final chapter, Goku's getting pretty old. And what happens to him after is already covered in the anime-original Dragon Ball GT. Still, Goku is the main character, after all. If you're going to make a new story without any difficulty, you'll have to rewind time a bit, and tell a story from somewhere in the past, or something...

Toriyama: I agree. Rather than continuing on strangely into the future, or digging deeper, I'd rather develop it with something like a separate episode, going back in time to say, "there was such-and-such a story, involving such-and-such an opponent". As in, it wasn't in the comic, but this kind of thing also happened. I think that'd probably be better.
 

SBaby

Dungeon Master
So this is one of the reasons why we will never go past the End of Z and how Dragon Ball Super was first conceived:

The problem with doing a series this way, is it becomes really predictable. You know no matter the threat the characters are facing, exactly what the status quo has to be when they get up to that point. It's often called the Anakin Dilemma, or Maxim's Problem. You know that Anakin has to become Darth Vader, and you know that Maxim has to die at the end because of foreknowledge of prior existing source material.

You have to come up with a way to tell a story that is interesting and ends at the point where the rest of the saga would start without being too predictable. And because of that, you're doing twice as much work, not only to make sure the events that happen match up with the future timeline in a way that makes sense (a problem that I think we'll start seeing before long, should they continue with the Super series), but also to keep audiences engaged. Everything up to this point has been completely predictable, because we know already what has to be the status quo when we get to GT.

It would be so much easier to set this in an alternate timeline, where you can tell a story with the audience honestly not knowing how the situation will resolve, or who will remain. Then anything can go.
 

Poke Trainer J

Well-Known Member
It would be so much easier to set this in an alternate timeline, where you can tell a story with the audience honestly not knowing how the situation will resolve, or who will remain. Then anything can go.
Toei sort of already did this with the Dragon Ball Heroes Anime / Manga even though the Anime is more commercial than the Manga. The Manga tends to focus more on Future Trunks and the Time Patrol from the Xenoverse story line rather than the one from Dragon Ball Super where Future Mai's relationship with Future Trunks is canon that's showcased in the Anime.
 

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
The problem with doing a series this way, is it becomes really predictable. You know no matter the threat the characters are facing, exactly what the status quo has to be when they get up to that point. It's often called the Anakin Dilemma, or Maxim's Problem. You know that Anakin has to become Darth Vader, and you know that Maxim has to die at the end because of foreknowledge of prior existing source material.

You have to come up with a way to tell a story that is interesting and ends at the point where the rest of the saga would start without being too predictable. And because of that, you're doing twice as much work, not only to make sure the events that happen match up with the future timeline in a way that makes sense (a problem that I think we'll start seeing before long, should they continue with the Super series), but also to keep audiences engaged. Everything up to this point has been completely predictable, because we know already what has to be the status quo when we get to GT.

It would be so much easier to set this in an alternate timeline, where you can tell a story with the audience honestly not knowing how the situation will resolve, or who will remain. Then anything can go.
we've already started seeing it, the timeline is kinda skewed and it's weird goku is so excited to fight uub when he can challenge beerus or broly (nevermind anyone from another universe). Also, about the status quo, I remember many (me included) being convinced 17 was actually dead, as he was nowhere to be seen in EoZ, so we weren't sure, and also, there's now thte fact that frieza is alive
 

CyberBlaziken

A Greater Evil
we've already started seeing it, the timeline is kinda skewed and it's weird goku is so excited to fight uub when he can challenge beerus or broly (nevermind anyone from another universe). Also, about the status quo, I remember many (me included) being convinced 17 was actually dead, as he was nowhere to be seen in EoZ, so we weren't sure, and also, there's now thte fact that frieza is alive

Android 17 was shown, both in the manga and anime, during the Kid Buu Saga when Goku was receiving energy for the Spirit Bomb.
 

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
Android 17 was shown, both in the manga and anime, during the Kid Buu Saga when Goku was receiving energy for the Spirit Bomb.
yes, but I'm saying that he wasn't at the end of z (as in, the uub part)
 

CyberBlaziken

A Greater Evil
yes, but I'm saying that he wasn't at the end of z (as in, the uub part)
He wasn't part of the "Z-Fighters", so it didn't make sense for him to be seen during that time. But my point was, there was no reason for him to be considered dead.
And, Androids have eternal life, unless they are destroyed by other means.
 

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
He wasn't part of the "Z-Fighters", so it didn't make sense for him to be seen during that time. But my point was, there was no reason for him to be considered dead.
And, Androids have eternal life, unless they are destroyed by other means.
I meant that in dbs ep 127, 17 apparently sacrificed himself to save goku, vegeta, and frieza, and as he wasn't there during the end of z, him being actually dead was a real possibility, we didn't know that he survived, and it wasn't a foregone conclusion that he would
 

CyberBlaziken

A Greater Evil
I meant that in dbs ep 127, 17 apparently sacrificed himself to save goku, vegeta, and frieza, and as he wasn't there during the end of z, him being actually dead was a real possibility, we didn't know that he survived, and it wasn't a foregone conclusion that he would
Do you watch the dub or sub for DBS?
 

CyberBlaziken

A Greater Evil
sub and latin american dub (which already finished)

If you finished DBS, then you know the fate of Android 17. I really don't see where you're getting "he was dead".

In the original anime and manga, he was show during the final battle with Kid Buu.
As he isn't part of the main characters, he wasn't shown during the World Martial Arts Tournament.

In Super, his fate was clearly established, and plays a crucial role in the end game.
It was matter of few weeks in between those episodes, nothing to jump to conclusions and make sense of it just because he wasn't in the original epilogue of the series.
 

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
If you finished DBS, then you know the fate of Android 17. I really don't see where you're getting "he was dead".

In the original anime and manga, he was show during the final battle with Kid Buu.
As he isn't part of the main characters, he wasn't shown during the World Martial Arts Tournament.

In Super, his fate was clearly established, and plays a crucial role in the end game.
It was matter of few weeks in between those episodes, nothing to jump to conclusions and make sense of it just because he wasn't in the original epilogue of the series.
yes, and in those few weeks we thought 17 was dead because we pretty much saw him die and the whole scene treated it as if he was dead, him not being at the WMAT meant we had no proof that he was alive, so he was assumed dead until the end of ep 130
 

RedJirachi

Veteran member
I'm just thinking-should Android 17 have come back to life in the first place? They wished back everyone killed by Cell and the androids, but since 17 was part of Cell when he died Gohan and not Cell/the androids killed him. For that matter as 17 was one of the androids Dr Gero should've been brought back from the dead because 17 killed him by stepping on his head
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
I'm just thinking-should Android 17 have come back to life in the first place? They wished back everyone killed by Cell and the androids, but since 17 was part of Cell when he died Gohan and not Cell/the androids killed him. For that matter as 17 was one of the androids Dr Gero should've been brought back from the dead because 17 killed him by stepping on his head
They only wished back Cell's victims, not the victims of the androids. All those folks on the island 19 and 20 attacked, none of them were ever wished back. 17 and 18 never killed anybody in that arc other than Gero. Also, if Guru dying because he was sad his children were being killed by Freeza and his men counts as being killed by Freeza and his men, 17 being absorbed by Cell and indirectly dying due to that also counts as being killed by Cell. Or you can assume that 17 died when Cell self-destructed.
 
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