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Amourshipping Thread V3

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
Honestly, the 'attractive woman' part makes it way less ambiguous.

It just screams 'I wanna become more attractive so you will like me' which is so...BAD. I don't need Serena's last words being that she wants to conquer Ash and become prettier for him. It takes away from her development. The dub line is more in line with all of Serena's character development and DOESN'T end her story with a desire to make a guy fall in love with her.

Except the general translation for it is "more charming woman" which has...a very different connotation. "Attractive" only has one, I agree. But "charming" can mean anything, really. I just don't understand why people keep saying that because Serena wants to be with Ash and has that as one of her goals, that it completely invalidates her character development and other goal. It doesn't; if anything, her character development would have never come to the point that it did without Ash in her life, helping her to push forward. The two become intertwined, but the fact that Serena says this, kisses him and then still walks away speaks more to her character than any words. She knows what she wants to do, but also recognizes which she would actively pursue.
 

Heekful

Well-Known Member
Honestly, the 'attractive woman' part makes it way less ambiguous.

It just screams 'I wanna become more attractive so you will like me' which is so...BAD. I don't need Serena's last words being that she wants to conquer Ash and become prettier for him. It takes away from her development. The dub line is more in line with all of Serena's character development and DOESN'T end her story with a desire to make a guy fall in love with her.

A lot of people don't want to talk to you because you look like a guy who wants to bash Serena and carefully hate on Amour but I just want to say :
EVEN if she said "you are my goal" in the dub , what is the problem ? Can you tell me why did she go to Hoenn in the first place ? To become more attractive ? No, She went to Hoenn to improve in her first main dream : Kalos queen , if she wanted to she could have choose to travel to Kanto with Ash and that was not really hard to do but she choosed her goal instead of Ash who basically showed that he is not her main goal and not a priority at all.

If it was really a priority she could have rejected Palermo and just stay with Ash instead, she didn't even enjoy the "real" date she got with Ash because she really wanted to do something instead of just being with Ash to do nothing at the end while the Serena from the past (long hair) would had freaking out at that moment... Remember this before saying that just a line could destroy her character because even if she said that (and she still in Japanese) the reason why she was leaving Ash in the first place was because of her goal.
 

Navin

MALDREAD
A lot of people don't want to talk to you because you look like a guy who wants to bash Serena and carefully hate on Amour but I just want to say :
EVEN if she said "you are my goal" in the dub , what is the problem ? Can you tell me why did she go to Hoenn in the first place ? To become more attractive ? No, She went to Hoenn to improve in her first main dream : Kalos queen , if she wanted to she could have choose to travel to Kanto with Ash and that was not really hard to do but she choosed her goal instead of Ash who basically showed that he is not her main goal and not a priority at all.
Remember this before saying that just a line could destroy her character because even if she said that (and she still in Japanese) the reason why she was leaving Ash in the first place was because of her goal.

Jano isn't trying to bash on Serena. His point is precisely that - Serena's actions indicate she has her own journey of growth ahead, but this line trivializes that by suggesting the entire purpose of it to gain XP to conquer Ash later, when that's not necessarily the case.
 

Sonic Boom

@JohanSSB4 Twitter
Except the general translation for it is "more charming woman" which has...a very different connotation. "Attractive" only has one, I agree. But "charming" can mean anything, really.

It can, when its in a contextless vacuum.

You have a kissing scene with a girl that has spent an entire series pining over a boy, and then uses the word "charming" in describing her goal in being a _____ woman, people will naturally gravitate toward that specific meaning during analysis.

Honestly, I don't know why people are trying to pick out different meanings for this line, when the takeaway now being condemned is precisely the takeaway people on Twitter, FB, and forums had when the episode aired.

This kind of condemnation they're having now could only come to be if they've come to the same conclusion other, more "neutral" parties have come to: That the line in context is a sign of a regression in Serena as a character, and now alternate justification has to be sought.
 
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Daniel31

HopingGaryReturns
Not a big fan of "You are my goal! Next time I'll be a more attractive woman", even if it has multiple meanings and maybe it sounds better in Japanese than it does in English.

They should have just played off the "Never Give Up Till the End" catchphrase that was a fixture throughout their interactions. I don't know, maybe something like "You taught me to 'Never give up until the end'. I won't ever give up on meeting you again." Pretty cheesy stuff, but better than what I felt sounded too regressive.
I honestly didn't mind those lines at the time because I personally looked at it from the point the view that was similar to the dub's recent release of it. The frustrating part of it was how it was being perceived by the many (and continues to) at the time. As a Serena fan, it's honestly frustrating, but people are obviously free to interpret it any way they want.

They should've just went along the lines of using the word admiration or inspiration instead, fits better. I think they used of those in the Winding Woods episode when they were in the cave and Ash was out in the blizzard.
 

Janovy

Banned
A lot of people don't want to talk to you because you look like a guy who wants to bash Serena and carefully hate on Amour but I just want to say.
Fun fact: I'm one of the few people who defended Serena when people called her a worthless character in early XY.

The whole reason I am making this argument is because I LIKE Serena, and to me she is more than someone's waifu.

I don't see how a genuine Serena fan would support such an incredibly sexist line such as 'You're my goal, I wanna become more attractive for you' as if Serena's whole life revolves around this boy and that everything she does is for him. The implications of the line make me sick and send all of Serena's development down the drain-

How you managed to take away from my post that I'm trying to 'bash' on her is a mystery to me. It's literally the complete opposite.
 
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Epicocity

Well-Known Member
Fun fact: I'm one of the few people who defended Serena when people called her a worthless character in early XY.

The whole reason I am making this argument is because I LIKE Serena, and to me she is more than someone's waifu.

I don't see how a genuine Serena fan would support such an incredibly sexist line such as 'You're my goal, I wanna become more attractive for you' as if Serena's whole life revolves around this boy and that everything she does is for him. The implications of the line make me sick and send all of Serena's development down the drain-

How you managed to take away from my post that I'm trying to 'bash' on her is a mystery to me. It's literally the complete opposite.

I honestly, personally, never took your words that way. As an individual, I disagree with your stance on it "sending all of Serena's development down the drain", but that's splitting hairs. You've been nothing but respectful here despite the disagreements.

I'll reiterate for myself that I don't see how it does that, especially because you keep using the initial and very early translation of "attractive" when multiple Japanese/English speakers and subbers attest that "charming", which can mean "attractive" but also things like "pleasant" "likeable" "delightful" which don't always have romantic connotations, is the correct translation. It completely upends the argument that Serena is speaking solely about this goal of wanting Ash. She's speaking, in her own way, as both. And she still pursues her personal goal of making people smile and becoming that better person before pursuing Ash. So...yeah.
 

snorlax512

Well-Known Member
Fun fact: I'm one of the few people who defended Serena when people called her a worthless character in early XY.

The whole reason I am making this argument is because I LIKE Serena, and to me she is more than someone's waifu.

I don't see how a genuine Serena fan would support such an incredibly sexist line such as 'You're my goal, I wanna become more attractive for you' as if Serena's whole life revolves around this boy and that everything she does is for him. The implications of the line make me sick and send all of Serena's development down the drain-

How you managed to take away from my post that I'm trying to 'bash' on her is a mystery to me. It's literally the complete opposite.

I'm pretty sure the Japanese version meant it the same way as the dub, it's just that the literal translations made it seem as though Serena's entire goal revolved around getting with Ash
 

Pokegirl Fan~

Liko>>>>>Ash
I'm pretty sure the Japanese version meant it the same way as the dub, it's just that the literal translations made it seem as though Serena's entire goal revolved around getting with Ash

Pretty much this. I think it seems more clearer in the dub over the original with subtitles because of how it was worded and possibly cultural differences. I also prefer the dubs way over the original since the original still does give off the impression of her character development regressing even though it's not
 

Janovy

Banned
I honestly, personally, never took your words that way. As an individual, I disagree with your stance on it "sending all of Serena's development down the drain", but that's splitting hairs. You've been nothing but respectful here despite the disagreements.

I'll reiterate for myself that I don't see how it does that, especially because you keep using the initial and very early translation of "attractive" when multiple Japanese/English speakers and subbers attest that "charming", which can mean "attractive" but also things like "pleasant" "likeable" "delightful" which don't always have romantic connotations, is the correct translation. It completely upends the argument that Serena is speaking solely about this goal of wanting Ash. She's speaking, in her own way, as both. And she still pursues her personal goal of making people smile and becoming that better person before pursuing Ash. So...yeah.
First of all, thank you! That means a lot to me!

Second, I guess it's not the adjective that bothers me as much as the word 'woman'. Like, if she said solely 'You're my goal, Ash!' I wouldn't have a problem because that line is perfectly ambiguous and can be interpreted either way. However, the fact that it is followed by the 'charming/delightful/pleasant woman' line makes it lean towards one specific meaning rather than being fully ambiguous. Like, why 'woman' ? Why not 'better person', for example? Anyway, I can see that you're guys getting annoyed so I'll stop. I just wanted to express my viewpoint.
 

Daniel31

HopingGaryReturns
Fun fact: I'm one of the few people who defended Serena when people called her a worthless character in early XY.

I don't see how a genuine Serena fan would support such an incredibly sexist line such as 'You're my goal, I wanna become more attractive for you' as if Serena's whole life revolves around this boy and that everything she does is for him. The implications of the line make me sick and send all of Serena's development down the drain-
It's true, Janovy has.

I don't know if that was directed to toward me, but if it is, I never said I supported it. I said I didn't mind it, which is a big difference. If one supports it, then they wouldn't change it if they had the chance. If one doesn't mind it, then that means if the opportunity presented itself to change it, they'd have the option (I would change it). However, since it's been done and it's too late, you have to live with it. I can obviously understand why they're are sickening, but it's the perception that's the main problem, not the words itself.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
First of all, thank you! That means a lot to me!

Second, I guess it's not the adjective that bothers me as much as the word 'woman'. Like, if she said solely 'You're my goal, Ash!' I wouldn't have a problem because that line is perfectly ambiguous and can be interpreted either way. However, the fact that it is followed by the 'charming/delightful/pleasant woman' line makes it lean towards one specific meaning rather than being fully ambiguous. Like, why 'woman' ? Why not 'better person', for example? Anyway, I can see that you're guys getting annoyed so I'll stop. I just wanted to express my viewpoint.

I see your point then. I can kind of understand the dislike over the word "woman" then, certainly. Personally it means less to me in context of the actions taken (i.e. Serena still departing regardless of her feelings) but different people have different interpretations. It's what makes discussion exciting. I'm personally not "annoyed" as I am "passionate". I like both Serena and Amour, so I argue that both are intertwined and don't ruin either character progression or development. But whatever, ha ha.
 

snorlax512

Well-Known Member
First of all, thank you! That means a lot to me!

Second, I guess it's not the adjective that bothers me as much as the word 'woman'. Like, if she said solely 'You're my goal, Ash!' I wouldn't have a problem because that line is perfectly ambiguous and can be interpreted either way. However, the fact that it is followed by the 'charming/delightful/pleasant woman' line makes it lean towards one specific meaning rather than being fully ambiguous. Like, why 'woman' ? Why not 'better person', for example? Anyway, I can see that you're guys getting annoyed so I'll stop. I just wanted to express my viewpoint.

The problem lies in the subbed version, not the original version. For example, the word used could have multiple meanings: it could mean both "attractive woman" or "better person in general". In that particular context it probably means better person in general, but if the phrase is literally translated word for word it might come out as "I'm going to be a more attractive woman for you" which is misleading but is not the problem of the Japanese writers.

Either way, the two goals are perfectly compatible with each other so I don't see any problem.
 

AshSerena

Well-Known Member
Honestly, the 'attractive woman' part makes it way less ambiguous.

It just screams 'I wanna become more attractive so you will like me' which is so...BAD. I don't need Serena's last words being that she wants to conquer Ash and become prettier for him. It takes away from her development. The dub line is more in line with all of Serena's character development and DOESN'T end her story with a desire to make a guy fall in love with her.

I dont know why people see this as like"I wanna become more attractive woman so you will like me" or "Sexist line" when what Serena mean is she will improve herself ,not for Ash but for herself. it simple xD

If there will be a day that Ash will like Serena , I'm sure its not because she become attractive or beautiful lady but because she become a better person ,

I think the problem here is, People only looking at subtitles and ignoring the japanese direct words from the anime, reason why people see it with different meaning.

it still depends how people will see it and also culture differences
altho, I'm still not sure what is "You're my goal" actually means for me , cant find 100% accurate meaning for this, DX

The problem lies in the subbed version, not the original version. For example, the word used could have multiple meanings: it could mean both "attractive woman" or "better person in general". In that particular context it probably means better person in general, but if the phrase is literally translated word for word it might come out as "I'm going to be a more attractive woman for you" which is misleading but is not the problem of the Japanese writers.

Either way, the two goals are perfectly compatible with each other so I don't see any problem.

^ i think this person can explain lot better than me,

If I remember correctly (and maybe Dephender can correct me if I'm wrong on this one) Ash wasn't really surprise because of the line he was surprised because Serena used the word "Anata" which is used a lot between married couple in Japan (or you can say "Anata" to a random guy you don't know but if you know the person it's basically your wife or your husband) so yeah the real meaning was obviously "my goal is to become a person like you"

i think im the one who posted that on twitter saying "Anata" is mostly used by married couple and i said It is still usuable in normal conversation but not that much... cause its kinda akward/rude calling people who you already know the name but still calling them "Anata" unless you are in higher position at work like boss or something or older


Can we stop comparing the sub and dub for now please :x , and sorry for my post, i hope people get what i mean even my english is not good
 
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Dephender

Gizakawayusu
Staff member
Moderator
The "subbed version" didn't even say "attractive", it said "charming". You're making a mountain out of a molehill that doesn't even exist.
 
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JCW18

Go, Explotaro!
I think people just mistranslated into English to hype it up, which is not funny.

Unfortunately that's probably what happened. Now when the official English dub comes out everybody loses their minds.

Of course none of it even matters if Serena never appears again... Speaking of which, is anyone else betting that if SuMo anime begins to tank, Serena will come back?
 
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CDVEN

Average Trainer
Whoa whoa whoa!

Chill out guys! The heat is getting out of hand with this sub vs dub meaning.

Regardless of which meaning is correct, Serena still gave Ash a kiss on the lips. Remember that.
 

Epicocity

Well-Known Member
Whoa whoa whoa!

Chill out guys! The heat is getting out of hand with this sub vs dub meaning.

Regardless of which meaning is correct, Serena still gave Ash a kiss on the lips. Remember that.

They're both, technically, "correct", it's simply a matter of interpretation from the dubbers that they chose a specific meaning of a line. But we've had multiple people confirm in the subs from PMFS (which are pretty much the most accurate) what the original version of the line best represents. And I don't mind a bit of the heat. Offers really great conversation. But the "attractive" part was from some early subbers, and it was later discovered (as in, later that day) that "charming" was the more accurate term.
 

Blood Red

【推しの子】
Man, I just came here to see how everyone reacted to the director confirming that Serena really did kiss Serena (as if that wasn't obvious lol) and I find this ridiculous debate. What's with all the arguing, and people apparently complaining about sexism of all things?! I know shipping discussions can get a bit...enthusiastic sometimes (especially ones about Amour) but this is absolutely ridiculous.

Anyway, I've said my piece. Waiting for S/M's end, hope you guys are still around when Ash starts chasing Gym Badges again!
 
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