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Amourshipping Thread V3
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World Turtle
Well-Known Member
I personally think the Ash vs. Red debate is and always has been dumb and mean spirited being just an excuse to dump on Ash. Or in the rare cases when it happens Red.
Amourshipping is unfortunately doomed to fail, because Serena changed her sexual orientation
She has? Good for her (sad for amour fans though) we need more LGBT representation in anime.
Damerdal
[Dam]n h[er] Gan[dal]f!
Ash just felt the most boring me in XY compared to the rest. Idk why I just know I prefer Ash being more to his own than trying to be standard shonen boy
I've said this before, but XY Ash wasn't written to have a compelling rival or a dynamic with his companions that would have allowed him to banter or show more emotion. He didn't have a rival like Paul who could have emotionally challenged him in a compelling fashion. Sawyer was introduced to have a master vs student relationship with Ash, but the show introduced Sawyer way too late and didn't give him enough screentime to portray that relationship properly. Sawyer's insane ramp-up was done off-screen. Likewise, Alain could have had a enemy-rivalry with Ash, but he was too much of a good guy, and didn't oppose Ash enough.
Serena could have also pushed XY Ash's character emotionally in a different way (romantically), but unfortunately, the show presented it as a mostly one-sided ship, kept Ash clueless, and only had her confess in her literal last scene. There could have been a true romantic subplot here, which would have added more depth to Ash's character, but most of the time in XY, Serena's crush was played up for gags.
The reason DP Ash doesn't receive that same criticism is because Dawn was a co-star who had a lot of back-and-forth interactions and banter with Ash, and obviously the rivalry with Paul truly pushed Ash. XY Ash was supposed to Ash's glory season, a complete reversal of that horrendous 'reset' in BW, to the extent that he's practically inspirational to everyone around him. Perhaps it went too far, but at the time, I felt it was needed to reinvigorate the fandom to embrace the anime again and believe Ash can attain his goals.
Blood Red
【推しの子】
Red hasn’t been labeled with a title that, for all intents and purposes, doesn’t really exist in the games. So?
Dark_King25
Well-Known Member
I really agree with this imagine the backlash if SM was made after BW. XY really reinvigorated a lot of people's interest in the anime
I don't mean to start a conflict or anything but I would've pegged you as an anti if it weren't for your pfp lmao
Shadao
Aim to be a Pokémon Master
It was on the premise that Red technically "completed" his goals before Ash did. And keep in mind, the "casual" (they may call themselves hardcore, but anyone not actually following the anime to keep track of the story is considered casual in my books) fandom back in the day couldn't tell the difference between Red from Pokémon Adventures and Red from the games and Red from Origins. They lumped all the Reds into one just to claim that Red is better than Ash.
I think somewhere along the line, showrunners who grew up with the anime since they were kids were always aware of this misconception of Satoshi from the larger fanbase. So it was decided to nudge Ash to be closer to Red, by taking all the good aspects of Red and recontexualize it in Ash. I mean, Yajima outright stated that Ash's overlapping hair tuffs on his ears was deliberate, stating he took it from FRLG Red. And after Let's Go Pikachu and Let's Go Eevee revealed that Red's "jacket" is actually a vest, Journeys showed Ash wearing a blue vest rather than a jacket.
And it's not so much of saying Ash and Red are the same character as it is bringing Ash back to his truest roots. Back when game Red actually had a personality.
XY emphasizes Ash's coolness and how he inspires others
SM emphasizes Ash's friendship and family bonds
JN emphasizes Ash's desire for adventure and how his hard work has finally paid off
World Turtle
Well-Known Member
As a mythology fan I like to treat Ash as Joseph Campbell’s ideal example of the “Hero of a Thousand Faces”. Ash can fit into any many different shoes.
…also I’m trying to figure out how to do a parody of “You’re Welcome” from Moana with boat replaced for bike.
Dark_King25
Well-Known Member
so i somehow stumbled at this good old tweet by epicocity on how a lot of criticisms of serena and to a certain extent amourshipping are shallow and baseless and can easily be explained good read for the people in this thread
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masdog
What is the airspeed of an unladen Swellow?
Great tweet @Epicocity
SerGoldenhandtheJust
Deluded Dreamer
Meta and lore wise he still ain't that strong lol
So.....when we have literally nothing in the lore indicating Red is superior to other champions like Ash has been shown, being shown explicitly as the world's strongest, how is Red even remotely stronger than Ash in any logic?
Dark_King25
Well-Known Member
He literally defeated gold in masters. And his Pikachu is actually tied with Cynthia's garchomp as the highest leveled pokemon npc in the games
World Turtle
Well-Known Member
Good to see someone put all the arguments and their counters together, but I think it would be good to cite the episodes they’re referencing. If people don’t watch everything they’ll miss the nuances of the characters, but no one is going to sit and watch through 140 episodes for something they don’t like. So we need the specific episodes and scenes.
Honestly my issue with their fight in the snow bothers me not because of shipping but because of RL stuff with people I know. Like I get she was just trying to get Ash out of his funk especially since she never seen him depressed like this before, I’m just reminded of someone seeing a “flaw” in someone they like and trying to “fix it”. (It’s not good for both sides of a relationship. It ends poorly.)
That I think is what (some) critics of that scene are seeing. She didn’t like seeing Ash be down. That’s fair. But to some people it came off as her saying “stop being sad I don’t like it” because it wasn’t fitting the image of the Ash she admired. Now, is that what she was saying? Eh… She’s 10, she’s upset, and talking to her crush who wasn’t acting like himself. Of course it was going to come out wrong.
Again nuances people. Of course shippers are just going to ignore that and vilify her.
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Damerdal
[Dam]n h[er] Gan[dal]f!
Lol, why do I get the impression that these rebuttals are to perceptions that were probably meant to be half-jokes.
Obviously Serena didn't worship Ash, but she also bantered a lot less than other Pokegirls. Early sassy Serena would have been so great. It's not that Serena being kind, nurturing, sweet, and polite aren't amazing qualities, nor the fact that her interactions with Ash were always so supportive and overall healthy, but there's an entire side of Ash who's totally snarky and hilarious (see MPM 02 with Misty). It would have been great if Serena did banter more with Ash. Their relationship would have felt more complete then.
I will say though, there was no need for Serena to go a full year of XY episodes before her goal finally got underway at XY060. The audience knew by episode 20 that she was interested in baking, fashion, and that 'girls should make themselves cute'. She could have learned about Showcases during the Pokevision episode, watched one by XY25, and by XY35-40 had her first Showcase. The problem was outside of those couple of focus episodes, Serena was largely just 'there' in the other episodes during the first year. It's why her crush became her defining feature, because her goal took quite a bit of time to get going.
However, I do disagree strongly with this notion that Serena had to struggle in her goal:
Xuxuba
Well-Known Member
When it comes to the ones that call him a soulless robot in XY, notice how when you ask them about a filler or plot relevant episode with a more light-hearted nature, they often can barely remember the events that happened, if any at all.
That is what happens when you hyperfocus on the moments of crisis where the protagonist barely has the time to joke around, you fail to recognize all of the other instances where he displayed his personality traits, even though those were far more constant than people give them credit for, as the main characters weren't being hunted down by TF the whole series.
It was only when Zygarde was introduced that the tension rose up and even then there were breaks from said crisis.
But the same people that complain about the serious moments are the ones who seem to have only watched or payed attention to those. Do you know why? Because even though they don't want to admit it, those tense and serious moments were great for grabbing the attention of people who haven't been consistently watching the series in a while.
At the end of the day, most if not all of Ash's previous personality traits are present in that series: his impulsive behavior, his excentric side, his creative mind, his love for food, his potential to be a brat sometimes, his ability to be late at the worst times, his overall optimistic and idealistic persona that was not completely unwavering and, perhaps most importantly, his childlike admiration and respect for Pokémon...
That said, even if we took the time to pinpoint every single moments on those 140 episodes where he displayed these traits, they would conveniently ignore them.
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Dark_King25
Well-Known Member
I really think the banter part is just personal taste not everyone has to be a tsundere to have a great dynamic you know
Not really a lot of people in this forum really meant what they said just look at the decisions that you can't forgive thread
Xuxuba
Well-Known Member
Saying a performer is not resposible for their pokémon losing a Showcase is like saying a battler is not responsible for their pokémon losing a battle.
At it's core, they are all trainers, their job is to make sure their pokémon are ready enough to face the competition.
Every mistake made wasn't shared solely by a single member of the group because it was a team effort. Serena didn't take moveability into account when she styled Fennekin. She took the risk of making a choreography that was too hard for Eevee to follow up and that could potentially hurt her pokémon as Eevee was just starting showcases and getting over her fear of the stage. Serena was the one who couldn't come up with a routine interesting enough for her to outshine Jessie who was far more creative on that Showcase. And lastly she was the one who lost balance in her last performance, needing to be saved by Sylveon, but still putting in risk everything they worked for.
If you think she looked Mary-Sueish on those performances it's because you cannot recognize what the job actually entails.
If someone struggles to understand a concept that basic to the series, it's no wonder why they'd take early Serena as an useless and stagnant character. She is not a character limited to career-only development and the plot points estabilished on those early episodes were important for her character arc. Things like bonding with her pokémon or growing closer to Ash, better understanding racing and as an result realizing why her mother wanted her to give a proper try, meeting Miette and befriending her regardless of their differences in personality, understanding that everyone has their own pace on figuring themselves out and that she does not need to beat herself up for taking longer, learning to take value on every experience she faces head on.
To say all of that was useless proves the importance of stories like that on children's shows, because even as adults we take some of those lessons for granted.
At it's core, they are all trainers, their job is to make sure their pokémon are ready enough to face the competition.
Every mistake made wasn't shared solely by a single member of the group because it was a team effort. Serena didn't take moveability into account when she styled Fennekin. She took the risk of making a choreography that was too hard for Eevee to follow up and that could potentially hurt her pokémon as Eevee was just starting showcases and getting over her fear of the stage. Serena was the one who couldn't come up with a routine interesting enough for her to outshine Jessie who was far more creative on that Showcase. And lastly she was the one who lost balance in her last performance, needing to be saved by Sylveon, but still putting in risk everything they worked for.
If you think she looked Mary-Sueish on those performances it's because you cannot recognize what the job actually entails.
If someone struggles to understand a concept that basic to the series, it's no wonder why they'd take early Serena as an useless and stagnant character. She is not a character limited to career-only development and the plot points estabilished on those early episodes were important for her character arc. Things like bonding with her pokémon or growing closer to Ash, better understanding racing and as an result realizing why her mother wanted her to give a proper try, meeting Miette and befriending her regardless of their differences in personality, understanding that everyone has their own pace on figuring themselves out and that she does not need to beat herself up for taking longer, learning to take value on every experience she faces head on.
To say all of that was useless proves the importance of stories like that on children's shows, because even as adults we take some of those lessons for granted.
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Dark_King25
Well-Known Member
I mostly Agree the only problem I have is that there are some instances in showcases that really felt catered to Serena like Rhyhorn herding and pokepuff baking but it really fits the theme of "nothing we really do is pointless" so I'm willing to look past that
cricketlaxwolvesbandy
Summoning...
Ash: protects Serena
Meowth: Looks like the twerps protecting his girlfriend.
Ash: Blushes
Serena: Blushes
James: Looks like the twerpette has a crush on the twerp
Serena: covers her hands in her face
Jessie: Get a room, you two!
Meowth: Looks like the twerps protecting his girlfriend.
Ash: Blushes
Serena: Blushes
James: Looks like the twerpette has a crush on the twerp
Serena: covers her hands in her face
Jessie: Get a room, you two!
Shadao
Aim to be a Pokémon Master
Red is hailed by the fandom as the strongest because technically, he has the highest level team for a long time, even above Cynthia. With a level 81 or 88 Pikachu as his strongest Pokémon. However, a lot of these praises are less about Red being great on his own right, and more of the fandom being so insecure that the most famous trainer of Pokémon is Ash... and Ash is all too real for them. A person with flaws, who doesn't always win, and is clearly far from succeeding his dreams to becoming Pokémon Master.
In the beginning, there was no distinction between Red and Satoshi. As far as Japan and Satoshi Tajiri were concerned, Ash and Red were the same person. That changed when Gen II came around and in hindsight, for the worst. Red was slowly being separated from Ash in an unusual manner. Whereas Gary/Shigeru and Blue/Green were understand to be practically the same person, Ash/Satoshi and Red were given a conscious effort by the fandom to not confuse the two. And given that they don't bother separating Pokémon Adventures Red and Game Red, you can tell the motive behind. The Pokémon fandom, in their awkward edgy teenager years, wanted to run away from Ash. They think he's too childish and too much of a loser to root for and follow, so they turned to a character that doesn't speak for himself. A character who has a blank canvas perfect for the fandom to impose their ideal trainer to be.
I have no doubt that GameFreak wanted Red to be one of the strongest, if not these strongest Pokémon trainer, because he represents the player and the player always had the potential of becoming the strongest Pokémon trainer in the game. But the fandom did so much to separate Red from Ash it always felt like something was off about Red's badass reputation. Like, no one knows how Red become the strongest. It's just assumed that he always was. And every attempt at retelling his story by the fans never gave him any true struggles. As if they cannot fathom Red to be anything other than this legend they made up in their heads.
This is where Ash comes in. He is the human side of Red. And starting with XY, the showrunners did everything to link Ash back to Red even though by this point, the separation of the two characters has become quite permanent as Red is now defined by his stoic nature and silence.
And maybe that's why Red broke his silence and wishes to face Ash in battle in Pokémon Masters.
And that's thing about Ash. He always brings out the best in people. Even rivals like Gary and Paul gradually softened up because of their interactions with Ash. No wonder why Serena loves him.