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Amourshipping Thread V3

Damerdal

[Dam]n h[er] Gan[dal]f!
She is present through the technology of television. And the Rotomphones. That's why the technology has improved the connection of the world.

Come on man. There's a huge difference between watching someone on TV versus making the effort to be with that individual in person and supporting from the stands.


When they can afford the time. Ash is literally in Galar region. We don't see Delia or Oak making the trip to Galar even though they have supported Ash the longest. We don't see Brock, Misty, and the others make trip aside from Dawn. And we were shown the worst case scenario with Goh. He literally cannot watch the Master 8 Tournament finale.

And all of those were examples of bad writing/planning.

All of them should have been present in-person for Ash's most important tournament and match. Goh being written off before the finale was random and silly.

The story is ultimately about Ash and Goh, with Goh learning to make a new best friend and pursue his dreams. Goh's conflict is literally to choose between supporting Ash or pursuing his dream. That dilemma loses impact if everyone but Goh could make it. Serena is among those who is confirmed to have a busy career.

It's such an artificial conflict that was needlessly written. As @Morax said previously, what kind of poor messaging is, "Hey, sacrifice being with your friend before his most important battle to go pursue your own thing!"

These don't have to be mutually exclusive elements. The show already emphasizes the importance of individual journeys when Ash separates from his companions at the end of every region. Serena is already not with Ash because she her has her own goals and career.

However, something like a Masters 8 Tournament should be an example of what brings people together, i.e., Serena understanding that being there for Ash is just as important as her competing in another Showcase.

I understand the intent of the narrative, and I will not betray that for any rewrite. As I've said before, the only rewrite need was a celebration party where all of Ash's friends gather. That one has the best excuse to take a break from your career. Ash is now World Champion and wouldn't it make sense for friends of Ash to gather and celebrate with newfound celebrity? Heck, their bosses would see a good financial opportunity for sponsorship and endsorsement. Especially with Serena.

Could it have been narrative intent? Possibly.

However, I think that is giving the writers too much credit for an already problematic message.

I think it was just Journeys missing yet another massive opportunity of bringing all of Ash's friends together. And it just appears as subpar planning. Like they only could get select VAs to return for a couple episodes. I mean, after all, narratively, what huge thing did Iris and Alain have going on that they couldn't stay for the biggest battle?
 

Morax

King of heroes
Could it have been narrative intent?
The point is that it shouldn't be. We're teaching kids to be friends but not the responsibilities that come with it.

>"You don't need to be there in person if you can cheer for him from behind a television screen!"

Is a hell of a thing to teach kids. I can't believe people are actually endorsing it.
 

Sonic Boom

@JohanSSB4 Twitter
It's worth pointing out that Takeshi didn't show up for Masters 8, despite Yuji Ueda not only voicing Sonansu as well, but also the tournament announcer who was commentating throughout every match. You could rationalize using stock Sonansu clips, but not the announcer.

Takeshi could have shown up proper since his seiyuu was constantly present and recording, but he didn't. Lends credence to there being a narrative intent.
 

Damerdal

[Dam]n h[er] Gan[dal]f!
It's worth pointing out that Takeshi didn't show up for Masters 8, despite Yuji Ueda not only voicing Sonansu as well, but also the tournament announcer who was commentating throughout every match. You could rationalize using stock Sonansu clips, but not the announcer.

Takeshi could have shown up proper since his seiyuu was constantly present and recording, but he didn't. Lends credence to there being a narrative intent.

That honestly makes it even worse. Brock is Ash’s best friend/akin to a brother.

He was present when Ash beat Gary, when Ash completed the Battle Frontier, when Ash beat Paul. Why would he not be present for when Ash beats Leon and becomes the best Trainer of them all?
 

ComedianGuy8

Well-Known Member
That honestly makes it even worse. Brock is Ash’s best friend/akin to a brother.

He was present when Ash beat Gary, when Ash completed the Battle Frontier, when Ash beat Paul. Why would he not be present for when Ash beats Leon and becomes the best Trainer of them all?
You may not be happy about how it's been portrayed but the past cannot be changed. Complaining about it won't change anything.
 

Dark_King25

Shillmon Defender
All of them should have been present in-person for Ash's most important tournament and match. Goh being written off before the finale was random and silly.
I think that would be too convoluted and would kinda take off the focus which is Ash vs Leon I think they should've retuned in mpm
 

Sonic Boom

@JohanSSB4 Twitter
He was present when Ash beat Gary, when Ash completed the Battle Frontier, when Ash beat Paul. Why would he not be present for when Ash beats Leon and becomes the best Trainer of them all?

Because he was a main character in the first three instances, and wasn't one in the latter example. Same thing happened with the Orange Island battle: Brock wasn't a main character during that segment of the story, so he wasn't there.
 

Shadao

Aim to be a Pokémon Master
Come on man. There's a huge difference between watching someone on TV versus making the effort to be with that individual in person and supporting from the stands.

Yeah. TV is affordable and accessible. It's always used in sports narrative for those who cannot make it in person.

And all of those were examples of bad writing/planning.

All of them should have been present in-person for Ash's most important tournament and match. Goh being written off before the finale was random and silly.

That's your opinion, but it's not fact. The narrative establish that Goh had a choice between staying in Galar to watch his friend's dream come true... or leave and make his dream come true. Pokémon has always emphasize that while it's nice to help or support others, you should not do it at the expense of your own growth and your own dreams. That has been a recurring theme in Journeys, and it's a recurring theme in Horizons.

While it's nice for Ash's friends to all see his match in person, it goes against that theme. Recall how Goh wants Horace to not forfeit his dream of reaching Celebi just because of Goh's dream to catch Mew. Recall how Ash and Goh were unable to see Chloe and Serena perform in a Super Contest because they were sidetracked by their goals and desires. And recall how Goh ultimately needed to part ways with Ash when starting his new journey despite the fact that Ash is his best friend in a long time.

Sometimes our dreams make us part ways physically. But spiritually, we are still in contact with each other and still supporting from afar. You might say it's bad writing, but I disagree because of how these themes are played out not just in the Master 8, but across the entire Pokémon series.

It's such an artificial conflict that was needlessly written. As @Morax said previously, what kind of poor messaging is, "Hey, sacrifice being with your friend before his most important battle to go pursue your own thing!"

These don't have to be mutually exclusive elements. The show already emphasizes the importance of individual journeys when Ash separates from his companions at the end of every region. Serena is already not with Ash because she her has her own goals and career.

However, something like a Masters 8 Tournament should be an example of what brings people together, i.e., Serena understanding that being there for Ash is just as important as her competing in another Showcase.

The message is that sometimes, reality doesn't allow you to go there in person. There's always a schedule conflict or distance conflict. And some of these careers may be too important to simply abandon, like Brock taking care of Pokémon as a doctor or Goh being summoned to an urgent meeting. The series is known for subversion through realistic situation (such as Gary being defeated by Ash could face him in the Indigo League).

This is something I encountered in real life many times. There are events that I want to go for or with friends but cannot due to schedule conflicts. And we should be thankful that something like Zoom has become a staple in our livelihood after COVID-19, which is also something that was emphasized in Horizons.

I think that would be too convoluted and would kinda take off the focus which is Ash vs Leon I think they should've retuned in mpm

Indeed. That whole episode is about Ash and Pikachu finally overcoming the odds and becoming the world's greatest trainer. You could barely get Dawn to interact with Ash. Now imagine the fight over who gets to talk to Ash or cheer for Ash.

The perfect episode for everyone to be there for Ash is literally his victory party. No need for battles or adventures. Just people enjoying a party and talking. And that is where Ash and Serena would have the most impactful meeting because now it will be a talk about future goals and achievements already done.
 

ComedianGuy8

Well-Known Member
The perfect episode for everyone to be there for Ash is literally his victory party. No need for battles or adventures. Just people enjoying a party and talking. And that is where Ash and Serena would have the most impactful meeting because now it will be a talk about future goals and achievements already done.
I would also imagine the rest of Ash's friends (at least Brock mostly) listening to Ash and Serena's conversation which would lead them to notice something romantic between them. I could imagine one of the most hilarious reactions from Brock such as him acting like Gollum/Smeagol.

Brock: "Must have true love. No one here to love me. We needs it. They gots it before us. Lonely, lonely, lonely!"
 

WaterTypeStarter

Well-Known Member
Maybe this will not please people but the out of universe reason is that the writers probably didn't think about it deeply. They just did what was easiest for them (given they wouldn't have to come up with some explanation for how his friends come). Not to mention he was kept for years primarily for easy marketing.
 

Damerdal

[Dam]n h[er] Gan[dal]f!
You may not be happy about how it's been portrayed but the past cannot be changed. Complaining about it won't change anything.

Well obviously.

Because he was a main character in the first three instances, and wasn't one in the latter example. Same thing happened with the Orange Island battle: Brock wasn't a main character during that segment of the story, so he wasn't there.

Neither was Dawn, yet she was written to be present for Ash vs Leon under the reason of wanting to cheer Ash in-person.

Yeah. TV is affordable and accessible. It's always used in sports narrative for those who cannot make it in person.

Except usually, the friends and family of athletes tend to be present in-person, especially if it's the most important match.

That's your opinion, but it's not fact. The narrative establish that Goh had a choice between staying in Galar to watch his friend's dream come true... or leave and make his dream come true. Pokémon has always emphasize that while it's nice to help or support others, you should not do it at the expense of your own growth and your own dreams. That has been a recurring theme in Journeys, and it's a recurring theme in Horizons. While it's nice for Ash's friends to all see his match in person, it goes against that theme. Recall how Goh wants Horace to not forfeit his dream of reaching Celebi just because of Goh's dream to catch Mew. Recall how Ash and Goh were unable to see Chloe and Serena perform in a Super Contest because they were sidetracked by their goals and desires. And recall how Goh ultimately needed to part ways with Ash when starting his new journey despite the fact that Ash is his best friend in a long time. Sometimes our dreams make us part ways physically. But spiritually, we are still in contact with each other and still supporting from afar. You might say it's bad writing, but I disagree because of how these themes are played out not just in the Master 8, but across the entire Pokémon series. The message is that sometimes, reality doesn't allow you to go there in person. There's always a schedule conflict or distance conflict. And some of these careers may be too important to simply abandon, like Brock taking care of Pokémon as a doctor or Goh being summoned to an urgent meeting. The series is known for subversion through realistic situation (such as Gary being defeated by Ash could face him in the Indigo League). This is something I encountered in real life many times. There are events that I want to go for or with friends but cannot due to schedule conflicts. And we should be thankful that something like Zoom has become a staple in our livelihood after COVID-19, which is also something that was emphasized in Horizons.

I doubt it was true narrative intent, and if it was, then it was poorly placed.

You're right, sometimes in life, an individual's goals and career can prevent that person from being present for an important event of a friend's.

However, there's a time and place for narrative themes.

Intentionally creating a situation where Goh has to leave before Ash's most important battle to shoehorn the theme of "following your dreams sometimes comes at the cost of leaving behind your loved ones" is so random and unnecessary, when the show can deliver that theme in any other previous sub-arc.

Just as important should be the theme that friendships are valuable, and taking time off from your life/career/goals to go support a friend during an especially critical period should be encouraged.

After all, the writers brought back Chloe and Dawn to be present for Ash vs Leon. You can't tell me that they don't have goals. Yet, they're characters who were written to have intentionally took time out of their lives to come support Ash.

Meanwhile, Ash's two oldest friends in Misty and Brock, or Serena, who's supposed to be the love interest, had more important things to do than be with Ash during his most important battle. Heck, Ash's freaking mom didn't show up, and she has zero excuses.

Indeed. That whole episode is about Ash and Pikachu finally overcoming the odds and becoming the world's greatest trainer. You could barely get Dawn to interact with Ash. Now imagine the fight over who gets to talk to Ash or cheer for Ash.

I never said that this needed to be all accomplished in the same episode.

The problem with the Ashnime has always been mediocre-to-poor pacing and planning. Random fillers or bland episodes in the middle of a saga take away from time that could be devoted for more compelling episodes towards the end of a series.

Obviously, if the former companions returned, there should be a couple of episodes allocated to group shenanigans.


The perfect episode for everyone to be there for Ash is literally his victory party. No need for battles or adventures. Just people enjoying a party and talking. And that is where Ash and Serena would have the most impactful meeting because now it will be a talk about future goals and achievements already done.

I mean, that was necessary too, but it failed to happen.

It can then spread to other people.

Regardless, there's no real-life tie-in between 2020 COVID-19 quarantine separation and Ash's friends not being present in-person during the Master 8 tournament.

Maybe this will not please people but the out of universe reason is that the writers probably didn't think about it deeply. They just did what was easiest for them (given they wouldn't have to come up with some explanation for how his friends come). Not to mention he was kept for years primarily for easy marketing.

This is probably it.

At the end of the day, if some people liked how it was presented, that's fine. I just fundamentally disagree with trying to defend this writing as some great example of narrative intent because that honestly makes it look worse.

Sticking to this thread topic, I bet if Serena had showed up during Ash vs Leon instead of Dawn, nearly every Amourshipper would be lauding that narrative decision for demonstrating that Serena truly belongs with Ash since she took the time to travel and support him in-person during his most important battle. In that scenario, nobody would be criticizing the writing for undermining her career/goals by having her be the only former-gen companion to be present.
 
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Shadao

Aim to be a Pokémon Master
Except usually, the friends and family of athletes tend to be present in-person, especially if it's the most important match.

Did you not see the whole "cannot make it" scenario? If they cannot make it in-person, then TV is the best case scenario. The point is that they are watching Ash no matter what.

I doubt it was true narrative intent, and if it was, then it was poorly placed.

You're right, sometimes in life, an individual's goals and career can prevent that person from being present for an important event of a friend's.

However, there's a time and place for narrative themes.

Intentionally creating a situation where Goh has to leave before Ash's most important battle to shoehorn the theme of "following your dreams sometimes comes at the cost of leaving behind your loved ones" is so random and unnecessary, when the show can deliver that theme in any other previous sub-arc.

Just as important should be the theme that friendships are valuable, and taking time off from your life/career/goals to go support a friend during an especially critical period should be encouraged.

After all, the writers brought back Chloe and Dawn to be present for Ash vs Leon. You can't tell me that they don't have goals. Yet, they're characters who were written to have intentionally took time out of their lives to come support Ash.

Meanwhile, Ash's two oldest friends in Misty and Brock, or Serena, who's supposed to be the love interest, had more important things to do than be with Ash during his most important battle. Heck, Ash's freaking mom didn't show up, and she has zero excuses.

Chloe was defined to be looking for a goal and career, hence why her Eevee was so indecisive of what it wants to evolve into. While Dawn was shown to be a traveling trainer, enjoying any events she came across (and has a personal friendship with Chloe for two episodes). Her goal for the time being can be put aside. Same cannot be said for Serena, who agreed with Lisa's proposition for a Super Contest. Or May and Max, who are also part of Lisa's Super Contest. Brock is shown to be still working as a doctor. And Misty is still shown to be in her Gym. And Delia and Oak have only gone to Kanto and Johto Leagues to root for Ash in person, which implies that distance has been an issue for them.

Regardless, the narrative was made clear with Goh since he is the co-protagonist of the show.

Regardless, there's no real-life tie-in between 2020 COVID-19 quarantine separation and Ash's friends not being present in-person during the Master 8 tournament.

Wasn't the whole argument of you and Morax that friends and family should go to public places in person to root for their champion even if circumstances make that impractical or even impossible? Journeys was made during COVID-19, and many couldn't finish work animating because of the COVID-19 rules. So there is precedent for a lesson in zoom calls.

Sticking to this thread topic, I bet if Serena had showed up during Ash vs Leon instead of Dawn, nearly every Amourshipper would be lauding that narrative decision for demonstrating that Serena truly belongs with Ash since she took the time to travel and support him in-person during his most important battle. In that scenario, nobody would be criticizing the writing for undermining her career/goals by having her be the only former-gen companion to be present.

Considering how much interaction Dawn actually had with Ash in the four-parter, it would be bread crumbs at best. Just talking to Chloe for commentary and sitting in silence on the bleachers. Bringing Serena in person would need more screentime between the two interacting to make this reunion worthwhile. Otherwise, it might as well be any other Pokémon companion.
 

KyleK

Fatebreaker
And Delia and Oak have only gone to Kanto and Johto Leagues to root for Ash in person, which implies that distance has been an issue for them.
They went to Alola too
 

Sonic Boom

@JohanSSB4 Twitter
Neither was Dawn, yet she was written to be present for Ash vs Leon under the reason of wanting to cheer Ash in-person.


Another point for her being a vehicle for Chloe to exposit with.

To be clear, I think I would have preferred if Dawn had made her way to Cerise Labs and watched with Chloe there instead to accomplish the same role - after all, Chloe’s doing exactly that during the quarterfinals. But they did it this way likely so that there’s an even number of people on Ash’s side while Sonia and Hop are in Leon’s corner, neither of whom Chloe has a real connection with (in Hop’s case, none at all.)
 
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Morax

King of heroes
Just as important should be the theme that friendships are valuable, and taking time off from your life/career/goals to go support a friend during an especially critical period should be encouraged
I wonder what caused this shift in the paradigm? I remember the cartoons I used to watch as a kid were all about the importance of love&friendship and the responsibilities that come with it. Yeah career is important too but Pokemon's hyperfocus on "goals" like they are the be-all-end-all of your life is almost narcissistic in nature. Since when did self-gratification become more important than being moral and virtuous?
 

Shadao

Aim to be a Pokémon Master
I wonder what caused this shift in the paradigm? I remember the cartoons I used to watch as a kid were all about the importance of love&friendship and the responsibilities that come with it. Yeah career is important too but Pokemon's hyperfocus on "goals" like they are the be-all-end-all of your life is almost narcissistic in nature. Since when did self-gratification become more important than being moral and virtuous?
COVID-19. What do you think happened during Pokémon Journeys? Social distancing, zoom meetings, etc. They all became more prominent in our lives since the pandemic. Now, you don't have to physical go to school (or even work). You can just work at home or talk at home. By Pokémon Journeys, video chat is so common that a phone booth is considered alien to Goh.

Obviously, Journeys doesn't have a pandemic but our societies have become more acceptable to online video chatting that it solved many multi-tasking issues. Like Liko with school. Can't stay in school because you're on the run from Explorers but still need your grades? Just get a Rotomphone to take online classes.

If Serena can be there for Ash by watching him live and still do her Pokémon Performance at the same time, why wouldn't she? You would have to convince Lisa to bring the Pokémon Performance Contest to Galar for a half-time show to get the same effect.
 
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