Amourshipping Thread V3

[Morax]

People believe the relationship is unhealthy because Serena is changing herself for Ash, I said Serena is also pursuing her own goals, and you said Serena is only pursuing those goals for Ash.

I'm not familiar with any Luffys.

And what is unhealthy about wanting to impress your crush? Especially when that growth helps you become a better version of yourself?

Lol luffy is from One Piece.

 

[Manqoba]

And what is unhealthy about wanting to impress your crush? Especially when that growth helps you become a better version of yourself?

Lol luffy is from One Piece.

When impressing your crush means leaving all of your friends and spending your life traveling to the other side of the world while trying to mold yourself to fit within someone's preferences, that's unhealthy.

 

[Morax]

When impressing your crush means leaving all of your friends and spending your life traveling to the other side of the world while trying to mold yourself to fit within someone's preferences, that's unhealthy.

Literally none of that’s happening with serena though?

You’re assuming that serena gave up on things she loved when that never happened. If anything her crush on him helped her find what she wanted to do in life. It’s a positive change. So yeah not unhealthy at all in serena’s case.

 

[Satoshi no masara]

Whelp, this tweet pretty much confirms it's all beads. No ribbons here. False alarm guys

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1513713567861997578

At least they finally acknowledged Serena's existence

 

[Manqoba]

Literally none of that’s happening with serena though?

You’re assuming that serena gave up on things she loved when that never happened. If anything her crush on him helped her find what she wanted to do in life. It’s a positive change. So yeah not unhealthy at all in serena’s case.

What are you talking about? Exactly zero of the friends we see her interact with on-screen are going to Hoenn, they're all in Kalos. Hoenn and Kalos are very far apart from each other, I said "other side of the world" in relation to France and Okinawa but consider it a figure of speech. She said herself that she's trying to become someone Ash would like more and you just said that she's only competing in contests because she's doing it for him and that she doesn't feel worthy to stand by his side.

 

[Morax]

What are you talking about? Exactly zero of the friends we see her interact with on-screen are going to Hoenn, they're all in Kalos. Hoenn and Kalos are very far apart from each other, I said "other side of the world" in relation to France and Okinawa but consider it a figure of speech. She said herself that she's trying to become someone Ash would like more and you just said that she's only competing in contests because she's doing it for him and that she doesn't feel worthy to stand by his side.

And she made good friends in hoenn as well? why are people taking this as a negative change when all it did was help her become a better/more successful person and even she is happy with herself?

She wants to be worthy to stand by his side and she one day will be, while also being the kalos queen. So how exactly has it been ‘unhealthy’ for her?

 

[AARTX]

What are you talking about? Exactly zero of the friends we see her interact with on-screen are going to Hoenn, they're all in Kalos. Hoenn and Kalos are very far apart from each other, I said "other side of the world" in relation to France and Okinawa but consider it a figure of speech. She said herself that she's trying to become someone Ash would like more and you just said that she's only competing in contests because she's doing it for him and that she doesn't feel worthy to stand by his side.

You seem to paint Serena as some social recluse who came to Hoenn to isolate herself from her friends to hone her craft to satiate her desire to be with a boy kek.

 

[Manqoba]

And she made good friends in hoenn as well? why are people taking this as a negative change when all it did was help her become a better/more successful person and even she is happy with herself?

She wants to be worthy to stand by his side and she one day will be, while also being the kalos queen. So how exactly has it been ‘unhealthy’ for her?

Did she? Did we see her traveling with friends in Hoenn? Or did we see her traveling all alone?

Even if she did make friends, that wouldn't change the fact that she left all of them she already had in Kalos just to impress Ash, as you said.

I don't know how else to explain to you that obsessing over and idolizing someone to the point of not considering yourself worthy of being near them is unhealthy. That's pretty much the worst thing for her self-image.

You seem to paint Serena as some social recluse who came to Hoenn to isolate herself from her friends to hone her craft to satiate her desire to be with a boy kek.

I considered her more favorably than that if you read all of the posts, but Morax decided to argue she was only competing to impress Ash like that was somehow better. Maybe he's just a troll, I don't know. I don't know how anyone could seriously think it's a good thing if Serena thinks she's unworthy of standing by Ash's side.

 

[Epicocity]

What are you talking about? Exactly zero of the friends we see her interact with on-screen are going to Hoenn, they're all in Kalos. Hoenn and Kalos are very far apart from each other, I said "other side of the world" in relation to France and Okinawa but consider it a figure of speech. She said herself that she's trying to become someone Ash would like more and you just said that she's only competing in contests because she's doing it for him and that she doesn't feel worthy to stand by his side.

It's been a while since I've been here, but...Serena never said this. She said she'd "become a more charming woman". While it's implied, sure, she'd like to be appealing to Ash, that's not her sole focus. Just that she intends to grow more, be more mature. To be more like he who inspired her. She's not trying to be someone he'd like more. I feel that kinda undercuts the whole point of her character...

 

[Manqoba]

It's been a while since I've been here, but...Serena never said this. She said she'd "become a more charming woman". While it's implied, sure, she'd like to be appealing to Ash, that's not her sole focus. Just that she intends to grow more, be more mature. To be more like he who inspired her. She's not trying to be someone he'd like more. I feel that kinda undercuts the whole point of her character...

Welcome back.

Translations are an inexact science but neither of these meanings are too far apart from each other. She specifically said something along the lines of "you are my goal" to Ash in the same breath, which makes it more probable she meant changing for him rather than in general.

Again, I was saying that it was conflicting because she was leaving Ash to develop her performances but now I'm very confused how Morax thinks it's better and healthier if Serena was only doing that for Ash and if she doesn't feel worthy to stand by his side otherwise.

 

[Morax]

Did she? Did we see her traveling with friends in Hoenn? Or did we see her traveling all alone?

Even if she did make friends, that wouldn't change the fact that she left all of them she already had in Kalos just to impress Ash, as you said.

I don't know how else to explain to you that obsessing over and idolizing someone to the point of not considering yourself worthy of being near them is unhealthy. That's pretty much the worst thing for her self-image

You need to understand that not all change is inherently negative. Wanting to hit the gym to impress your girl isn’t unhealthy. In the same fashion, serena going to hoenn to become a better performer, making more friends and becoming a more confident person is not an unhealthy change. Even her self-image of herself has improved.

And all of this happened because she idolized him. So in serena’s case that change has not been unhealthy at all.

 

[Manqoba]

You need to understand that not all change is inherently negative. Wanting to hit the gym to impress your girl isn’t unhealthy. In the same fashion, serena going to hoenn to become a better performer, making more friends and becoming a more confident person is not an unhealthy change. Even her self-image of herself has improved.

And all of this happened because she idolized him. So in serena’s case that change has not been unhealthy at all.

I don't know how else to explain to you how damaging that would be to her psyche. It doesn't matter what the outcomes are if the mechanism is unhealthy. If one is, the entire thing is.

 

[Epicocity]

Welcome back.

Translations are an inexact science but neither of these meanings are too far apart from each other. She specifically said something along the lines of "you are my goal" to Ash in the same breath, which makes it more probable she meant changing for him rather than in general.

Again, I was saying that it was conflicting because she was leaving Ash to develop her performances but now I'm very confused how Morax thinks it's better and healthier if Serena was only doing that for Ash and if she doesn't feel worthy to stand by his side otherwise.

I wholeheartedly disagree that's what it meant. "You are my goal" was easily one of the most beautifully ambiguous statements made. But nowhere in there should I think it read "I'm doing this for you". That's the whole point. She cares for him. Wants to be with him. Wants to be like him.

But she gets on that plane for herself. She puts her dream. Her goal. All of that she puts first and nowhere is it said to be for Ash because, reminder, her dream was never even suggested by Ash. It came from Shauna as an idea first, and it was her own personal commitment to it that kept her driving forward.

I really hate the idea that Serena is only doing anything because she wants to be someone Ash can go "yes, let's date". XY was all about coming of age, finding independence, and the final episode in particular was about saying farewell in order to continue growing on one's own. To make it therefore just about being someone else's eye candy is...whoo, it's a take.

And it's a take I'm finding kinda actually is starting to show the difference between people who care more about the ship over the character. Not that I'm saying you, specifically, do it, but it is something I'm noticing.

 

[Manqoba]

I wholeheartedly disagree that's what it meant. "You are my goal" was easily one of the most beautifully ambiguous statements made. But nowhere in there should I think it read "I'm doing this for you". That's the whole point. She cares for him. Wants to be with him. Wants to be like him.

But she gets on that plane for herself. She puts her dream. Her goal. All of that she puts first and nowhere is it said to be for Ash because, reminder, her dream was never even suggested by Ash. It came from Shauna as an idea first, and it was her own personal commitment to it that kept her driving forward.

I really hate the idea that Serena is only doing anything because she wants to be someone Ash can go "yes, let's date". XY was all about coming of age, finding independence, and the final episode in particular was about saying farewell in order to continue growing on one's own. To make it therefore just about being someone else's eye candy is...whoo, it's a take.

And it's a take I'm finding kinda actually is starting to show the difference between people who care more about the ship over the character. Not that I'm saying you, specifically, do it, but it is something I'm noticing.

I'm going to quote what I originally said before I was trying to figure out what Morax could possibly mean, because it expresses my views best.

I think that the biggest issue people have is the idea that Serena is changing herself for Ash, which isn't unfounded considering she says something very close to that when they're departing in XY. However, it's a conflicted argument because she's also leaving for her own personal development as a performer in the first place. Still, it's not hard to see where they're coming from and I don't like that aspect of her character personally. I think JN is moving in the right direction with her being more invested in her own goals.

I'm arguing that the idea she's changing for him isn't an unreasonable conclusion given she said that he's her goal and she wanted to become a better/more charming/more attractive woman. I don't think connecting those two statements would be a stretch. I'm then pointing out that I believe the idea is flawed because Serena leaves Ash to pursue her performance goals, for her own personal and professional development. I said that I understand where the criticism is coming from and I agree with you that it's concerning to me that some people think it's completely fine.

At that point, Morax said that all of her goals are really for Ash and that she doesn't feel worthy of standing by his side otherwise, and I'm pushing back on how he could possibly think that's a healthy relationship.

I honestly think we're agreeing with each other more than we're disagreeing. Sorry if there was any miscommunication.

 

[Morax]

I don't know how else to explain to you how damaging that would be to her psyche. It doesn't matter what the outcomes are if the mechanism is unhealthy. If one is, the entire thing is.

How is it ‘damaging her psyche’ when she literally became more confident? Like where are you even getting this from bro? She’s happier than ever.

 

[Manqoba]

How is it ‘damaging her psyche’ when she literally became more confident? Like where are you even getting this from bro? She’s happier than ever.

lol man if you don't think feeling unworthy, as you claimed, would be damaging to her, I can't help you

 

[masdog]

Whelp, this tweet pretty much confirms it's all beads. No ribbons here. False alarm guys

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1513713567861997578

At least they finally acknowledged Serena's existence

So they finally tweeted something about Serena.

Looks like she took up Lisia's offer to form an idol duo, but it was heavily implied that she would at the end of the episode anyway.

 

[Morax]

lol man if you don't think feeling unworthy, as you claimed, would be damaging to her, I can't help you

Trying to improve yourself to be worthy of somone and becoming worthy enough at the end is literally a positive change. How do you not understand something so basic?

 

[Manqoba]

So they finally tweeted something about Serena.

Looks like she took up Lisia's offer to form an idol duo, but it was heavily implied that she would at the end of the episode anyway.

Gosh, I never thought I would ask this ten years ago, but given we disagree about things like music, what's the canon status for promotional tweets?

Trying to improve yourself to be worthy of somone and becoming worthy enough at the end is literally a positive change. How do you not understand something so basic?

I don't know how else to explain to you how damaging that would be to her psyche. It doesn't matter what the outcomes are if the mechanism is unhealthy. If one is, the entire thing is.

 

[Epicocity]

Trying to improve yourself to be worthy of somone and becoming worthy enough at the end is literally a positive change. How do you not understand something so basic?

Because attaching your self-worth to whether or not someone finds you attractive is the first sign of a toxic relationship. Serena's better than that. It's not positive to think you need to be "worthy" of someone. It's no different than making someone a prize to be won. Or putting them on a pedestal and ignoring their flaws (something Serena grappled with and literally got over in XY, alone).