Amourshipping Thread V3

[Volkner948]

False equivalency there. They only did that because they some how decided on making her Champion in JN. They even tried to retcon his dream later in the series by saying it doesn’t really matter as long as he’s being raised well. Iris’s Axew evolving had nothing to do with his dream no more than them making her team more similar to her Champion team. Haxorus is her ace and how weird would it be being having a Champion that specializes in Dragon types but having an Axew?

Little off topic but I disagree here, Axew fully evolving was also for Iris' growth and what should of happened back in BW. Even if Iris was only a Gym leader or whatever in Journey's, her having Haxorus now makes her character arc feel closer to complete unlike how BW left her unfinished.

 

[Shadao]

False equivalency there. They only did that because they some how decided on making her Champion in JN. They even tried to retcon his dream later in the series by saying it doesn’t really matter as long as he’s being raised well. Iris’s Axew evolving had nothing to do with his dream no more than them making her team more similar to her Champion team. Haxorus is her ace and how weird would it be being having a Champion that specializes in Dragon types but having an Axew?

Axew could have been a companion Pokémon and Iris just uses Dragonite or Garchomp or any other Dragon-Types she found in Johto.

But they choose Axew becoming Haxorus to symbolize Iris' growth as a trainer as well as finally making use of Axew's dream that teased very early on in BW.

 

[Power Up]

Oh boy, a new user who just made their account today.

I really don't see the big deal about the ribbon, she doesn't have to wear a piece of blue string on her for the rest of her life, she likely still has it in her purse or whatever.

I've already illustrated exactly why I think the
ribbon is important in both critiques of the episode that I've made. Just calling it a " piece of blue string " is somehow worse than the bizarre assertions made earlier in the the thread that the ribbon was representation of the toxic part of Serena and Ash's relationship made several pages ago. At least the latter acknowledges that it represented something important, even if it's completely out of left field.

If people wish to think that the its inclusion is not necessary or unimportant, that's fine, but I think the way the XY anime itself characterized it would disagree with that and the lack of an explanation for its removal is incredibly poor writing. I'm not in the business of writing the show for the writers so claims like she has it in her purse or something are just rank speculation. We have no idea what happened to the ribbon. Yes, it's more likely the case that she still has it versus her burning it or something, but in the end it's still just an assumption.

And that's one of the foundational problems with the episode that I mentioned. The lack of clarity. The episode requires a level of speculation and assumptions that simply isn't defendable for me. I'm retreading old ground, but the problems with that have already shown themselves with people speculation and assumption giving away to what is essentially rewriting or dismissing wholesale events that transpired in the XY anime to try and make sense of it.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

@SerGoldenhandtheJust I hate you for not paragraphing and splitting your lengthy posts properly and destroying my eyes every time.

LMAO Im so sorry XD
Honestly Im so busy with college stuff nowadays whenever I need to write something here I just type it fast, send and move on to other work My bad

Honestly, I'd rather hear some interview from the actual directors but I guess we'll have to wait for JN to end for that. Iwane and Serena's VA's comments/interview are nice and all but they really have no control over the anime and are likely limiting what they can say due to NDA. Hopefully, Anipoke PR will realize that JN105 exploded and "Satoshi & Serena" was the trending topic in terms of anipoke on that day more than anything else


lmao, sometimes I wonder if the current director just doesn't like Serena in general and want nothing to do with her. They only allowed Serena to appear out of obligation and hopes that fans will forget her immediately thus, limiting advertisements and mention of Serena, like "here's your Serena, now move on" but didn't realize that they created one hell of a massive popularity for the character again on the internet once fans discovered she's in the episode. Task failed successfully

If they didn't like Serena, as @masdog said best, they wouldn't have put so much effort into her return, redesign, symbolisms and the writing. They would have just handwaved it away as an actual throwaway companion like Tracey

 

[Spider-Phoenix]

It seems they have equal height in JN. Serena was taller than Ash in XY.

Sometimes, he was taller. Sometimes they were the same size. They were very inconsistent with that at the time and I remember I kept noticing how they alternate between those back in the day. Sometimes in the same episode, if I recall correctly.

She could just give it a try because now (thanks to Ash) her character is all about « nothing your ever do is pointless » so she’s doing an idol duo with Lisia for the purpose of learning something new, she’s still trying to be the best performer/Kalos queen she said it herself to Ash.

She agrees at first, gets sick of Lisia's antics and call it quits.

Hey, it happens all the time in real life.

When considering idols not allowed to get married or have relationships, the only people who suffer from the idol culture would be May and Drew because their professions are the same, and they interact enough times for people to wonder if there's a romance between them. That would spell trouble for them if their careers were Japanese idols. To a lesser extent, the same would apply to Kenny and Dawn, but Dawn is rather oblivious to romance, so there's no problem for her.

Never bought contestshipping but either way, I'd say May would be the one with issues. That makes me remember of scandal around Minami Minegishi. The guy she was with was also an artist (not sure if an idol but still) yet I don't recall he getting any bad press.

I wouldn't really put much stock into these artworks in terms of visual cues. Sure, they give us some decent off-screen worldbuilding that the episode may not (have time to) show, but the artist is not directly associated with OLM and I doubt the marketing team or said artist paid much attention to the character design outside of what they saw on the surface.

It would be a different matter if the actual team members/artists/character designers/animators drew her and kept that anklet as a beaded type without any ribbon.

Another important thing to consider is... It was a image done in a SD format and the that specific acessory were on her legs so it's not like the artist had much space to draw a small ribbon there.

If you want to overthink stuff further maybe after all the movement, the part with the ribbon just moved behind her leg lol

 

[masdog]

If people wish to think that the its inclusion is not necessary or unimportant, that's fine, but I think the way the XY anime itself characterized it would disagree with that and the lack of an explanation for its removal is incredibly poor writing. I'm not in the business of writing the show for the writers so claims like she has it in her purse or something are just rank speculation. We have no idea what happened to the ribbon. Yes, it's more likely the case that she still has it versus her burning it or something, but in the end it's still just an assumption.

And that's one of the foundational problems with the episode that I mentioned. The lack of clarity. The episode requires a level of speculation and assumptions that simply isn't defendable for me.

Let me start by saying that I understand the point your making. Yes. The ribbon is important as a symbol.

I don't necessarily agree that it wasn't included, or that an explanation is important at this point in time. We see what may be the ribbon as part of her anklet on her left ankle. It's just a fan theory at this point.

This may be a Chekov's Gun. The lack of clarity around the ribbon may be a plot point that they intend to come back to later when it is more significant to the story. They answered so many other questions in this episode that the lack of an answer here, outside of a possible visual reference, may be significant later on.

And this gets back to the point I made earlier about instant gratification. It's not bad writing just because we don't get an answer now.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Let me start by saying that I understand the point your making. Yes. The ribbon is important as a symbol.

I don't necessarily agree that it wasn't included, or that an explanation is important at this point in time. We see what may be the ribbon as part of her anklet on her left ankle. It's just a fan theory at this point.

This may be a Chekov's Gun. The lack of clarity around the ribbon may be a plot point that they intend to come back to later when it is more significant to the story. They answered so many other questions in this episode that the lack of an answer here, outside of a possible visual reference, may be significant later on.

And this gets back to the point I made earlier about instant gratification. It's not bad writing just because we don't get an answer now.

And even if we don't get it later it doesn't mean the significance of the ribbon and its meaning is downplayed. The only way that will ever be the case if she throws it away, gives it away or doesn't care about it. It doesn't need to be with her all times in dresses that it doesn't even match for it to remain important and symbolic to her, like the example I gave from my real life
The fact Serena just HAS to have it on her person seems too petty at this point, its significance was never removed unless you really wanna look at things in a highly cynical manner

 

[Observer]

And even if we don't get it later it doesn't mean the significance of the ribbon and its meaning is downplayed. The only way that will ever be the case if she throws it away, gives it away or doesn't care about it. It doesn't need to be with her all times in dresses that it doesn't even match for it to remain important and symbolic to her, like the example I gave from my real life
The fact Serena just HAS to have it on her person seems too petty at this point, its significance was never removed unless you really wanna look at things in a highly cynical manner

So to sum it all up, even though she's not wearing the ribbon it doesn't mean that it's not precious to her. She most likely still have it with her and there is no way she would just dispose of it either, come on if you had an item that someone you deeply cared about gave to you no way would it be carelessly tossed aside.

The point is, that we may not see her wearing the ribbon but we do know that she most likely still have it.

 

[Satoshi no masara]

The point is, that we may not see her wearing the ribbon but we do know that she most likely still have it.

I'd like to think of it that way though I still hope they would acknowledge it at some point. Even outside of the anime like during an interview where it will be brought up by the interviewer.

 

[Manqoba]

So to sum it all up, even though she's not wearing the ribbon it doesn't mean that it's not precious to her. She most likely still have it with her and there is no way she would just dispose of it either, come on if you had an item that someone you deeply cared about gave to you no way would it be carelessly tossed aside.

The point is, that we may not see her wearing the ribbon but we do know that she most likely still have it.

I agree, saying Serena threw away the ribbon or something is just preposterous. We never do see her backpack but I'd have to imagine it's just at the Pokemon Center or something since it would be tough traveling around with just the clothes on her back. It's probably still in there in its own special place, the same way Ash carries (carried?) Misty's lure and the Terracotta medal.

 

[Observer]

I'd like to think of it that way though I still hope they would acknowledge it at some point. Even outside of the anime like during an interview where it will be brought up by the interviewer.

Maybe in the future they might bring it up in an upcoming episode focused on Ash and Serena or maybe in another interview, we just have to wait and see.

I agree, saying Serena threw away the ribbon or something is just preposterous. We never do see her backpack but I'd have to imagine it's just at the Pokemon Center or something since it would be tough traveling around with just the clothes on her back. It's probably still in there in its own special place, the same way Ash carries (carried?) Misty's lure and the Terracotta medal.

Maybe in her backpack or she might have went back home for a while and placed it in a special spot in her room, like how Ash does with the items from his past adventures.

 

[Manqoba]

セレナアップグレード

ロング時代よりでかくなってません？

www.pixiv.net

In retrospect it is quite funny that serena was given an…..er ‘upgrade’, while may was given a ‘downgrade’ back in DP.

yeah uhh fbi, this post right here

 

[ibelinssj]

Sometimes, he was taller. Sometimes they were the same size

That depends on camera angle, distance and posture, so I only make comparison from when they had similar angle, distance, and posture. As for JN, I compare Ash to Chloe and Serena to Chloe, all three have same height.

 

[ibelinssj]

Ash and Goh, at least in frames where their body proportions are drawn properly and on-model, are similar in height to each other and slightly taller than Chloe.

Ash has grown some height... lol

 

[Motor Bug2005]

This is probably nothing big but there's something interesting that's been brought to my attention on Reddit:

It turns out that in the magazine scans that show Serena in JN105, the red bracelet on her left wrist that she's seen wearing in the actual episode is missing. Like I said, it's probably nothing big but it does make me curious as to why it was added (if there is a reason). Check the spoiler below:

Spoiler

 

[Power Up]

Let me start by saying that I understand the point your making. Yes. The ribbon is important as a symbol.

I don't necessarily agree that it wasn't included, or that an explanation is important at this point in time. We see what may be the ribbon as part of her anklet on her left ankle. It's just a fan theory at this point.

This may be a Chekov's Gun. The lack of clarity around the ribbon may be a plot point that they intend to come back to later when it is more significant to the story. They answered so many other questions in this episode that the lack of an answer here, outside of a possible visual reference, may be significant later on.

And this gets back to the point I made earlier about instant gratification. It's not bad writing just because we don't get an answer now.

It's just completely unbelievable to me that people are willing to grant this level of leniency to the anime. Even if JN was a better written series, I would still be skeptical of claims that there's an episode around the corner that'll address everything that this episode didn't. There's nothing about the critique I've made is reliant " instant gratification. " It's fundamentally unserious that your speculation that they purposefully ignored Serena's ribbon is compelling enough to call it a plot point that we'll definitely see addressed in another Serena return episode, another piece of speculation. I mean you literally call it a fan theory! You know what would actually be instant gratification? If the episode actually set-up that the ribbon would be addressed and I was complaining that they didn't show it in this episode. But it didn't. It's like people are projecting what they want to see happen onto the show and the episode when there's much simpler answers.

It's speculation upon another speculation. All of the defenses of this episode rely so much on potential that people believe that JN will definitely deliver on.

Not to mention that it's also ignoring the context of which this episode exists in.

Serena and Amour doesn't have the luxury that XY did in having a bunch of episodes to showcase the full breadth of her character, especially her relationship with Ash and the complex nuances that comes with it. This episode has to at least keep intact what was previously shown and has to do so much more to be truly meaningful related to Amour progression. Just doing the former though would have been massive props. That would have been the perfect episode that I thought was conceptually possible for the show.

Like someone in the previous page actually used the example of their real life gift or whatever, which is conceptually fine if you can actually make a proper comparison to the show, but the context in which they're using it is dishonest to a point of parody. We're not following Serena's journey the way we were in XY where the idea that " Serena not wearing it in just this one episode doesn't mean they're downplaying or removing this part of character " would work. This is literally just a one episode return in a series that isn't XY.

There's nothing cynical about the take that its significance was removed. I didn't even say that Serena had to have it on her person which of course is a ridiculous caricature of my position, just that it had to actually be addressed in some way if she wasn't going to wear it. I literally made an easy example here:

Serena giving her Sylveon's accessory could have easily flowed into Serena saying that it reminded her of when she got a gift from someone she cared about and related that with the " a traveling companion always did it for me line. " Perfectly flows, makes sense, and acknowledges its existence.

I don't know, maybe this is too strong/harsh of a phrase, but I feel like a lot of people are engaging what I think is mass delusion.

I'm prepared to eat so much sh*t if all of the foreshadowing and speculation people have said is definitely going to come to pass in the apparently already confirmed next Serena focus episode. It's not like I've been wrong about JN before. It'll be one of the cases where I'll be thanking the heavens I was wholly incorrect.

 

[Epicocity]

I'm gonna offer a different take: the fans ascribe more meaning to the ribbon than the anime does.

Yes, it was an important symbol, but not so important that it needs to be addressed that Serena has changed it out. It's not like the anime ever verbally gave it significance beyond "oh, Serena's wearing it!" in that one, singular episode. It's not like she wore it on her Performance outfit, or it was talked about beyond that. The anime never treated it as this explicable holy grail of Amour.

And given, again, Serena walks around with an encyclopedia of Ash quotes in her head that she doles out to others, why does she need to physically show the ribbon? Feels redundant at that point.

I really like the take that many have seen and incorporated that the ribbon, at this point, is internalized. Her feelings are matured and internalized because her dreams are being put first. I don't think that's bad writing at all. In fact, I think it would have been worse writing to take time out of the episode (an episode dedicated to a totally different character) to explain this minor detail that Serena was already showing through her actions.

 

[Power Up]

I'm gonna offer a different take: the fans ascribe more meaning to the ribbon than the anime does. Yes, it was an important symbol, but not so important that it needs to be addressed that Serena has changed it out. It's not like the anime ever verbally gave it significance beyond "oh, Serena's wearing it!" in that one, singular episode. It's not like she wore it on her Performance outfit, or it was talked about beyond that. The anime never treated it as this explicable holy grail of Amour.

This is my perception of the ribbon:

The ribbon is a physical manifestation of Amour and Ash and Serena relationship. It represents Serena's love from him on her side and a care and appreciation from Ash that I consider unique to his relationship with her(Ash doesn't just give gifts unprompted and rub his nose while doing so to any Pokegirl folks). It's explicit, incredibly meaningful, and something that XY took great pains to show was important to Serena. She literally made a gift from Ash a part of her outfit change, one of the most defining parts of XY and especially her character. She would grasp at the ribbon whenever she was worried about Ash.

I think the way XY characterized the ribbon is perfectly line in with my interpretation of it. The anime didn't need to bring up how important the ribbon was time after time when the context in which it was introduced was as significant as it was, but even then I mentioned Serena would grasp at the ribbon whenever she was worried about Ash.

And given, again, Serena walks around with an encyclopedia of Ash quotes in her head that she doles out to others, why does she need to physically show the ribbon? Feels redundant at that point.

This is also something I addressed in my second critique of the episode.

I'm explaining this to say that what makes Serena's character and her relationship with Ash unique from other Pokegirls was not just the significant influence on her from Ash, but was also the undercurrent of romantic implications and feelings that came with it. It's why the kiss is not only great development for Serena, but also great development for Amour. It's why some of my favorite scenes between the two of them like the " Never give up " mantra or Ash telling her that nothing they do is pointless are also examples of my favorite Amour scenes.

What's different about the portrayal of Serena here is that I easily think it could be easily argued the romantic implications of that relationship are stripped. The removal of the ribbon is indicative of that.

May as well just link the entire thing here at this point, all of my points really best work when they're in context with each other: https://forums.serebii.net/threads/amourshipping-thread-v3.653815/page-312#post-19357297

I really like the take that many have seen and incorporated that the ribbon, at this point, is internalized. Her feelings are matured and internalized because her dreams are being put first. I don't think that's bad writing at all. In fact, I think it would have been worse writing to take time out of the episode (an episode dedicated to a totally different character) to explain this minor detail that Serena was already showing through her actions.

I find it difficult to believe that something akin to the example I put forth would take enough time out of the episode to Koharu's detriment.

 

[Shadao]

It's just completely unbelievable to me that people are willing to grant this level of leniency to the anime. Even if JN was a better written series, I would still be skeptical of claims that there's an episode around the corner that'll address everything that this episode didn't. There's nothing about the critique I've made is reliant " instant gratification. " It's fundamentally unserious that your speculation that they purposefully ignored Serena's ribbon is compelling enough to call it a plot point that we'll definitely see addressed in another Serena return episode, another piece of speculation. I mean you literally call it a fan theory! You know what would actually be instant gratification? If the episode actually set-up that the ribbon would be addressed and I was complaining that they didn't show it in this episode. But it didn't. It's like people are projecting what they want to see happen onto the show and the episode when there's much simpler answers.

It's speculation upon another speculation. All of the defenses of this episode rely so much on potential that people believe that JN will definitely deliver on.

Not to mention that it's also ignoring the context of which this episode exists in.

At this point, I feel that whole missing ribbon is being blown out of proportion lately. Yes, I wish I knew where the blue ribbon is, but then episode reminded me that Serena is able to recite Ash's words perfectly as if she knew them by heart. Twice, in fact. A fan of the XY series would pick this up and realize this is one thing that cannot be taken away from her, unlike her wardrobe which has been changing. And quite frankly, gifts have been overrated in terms of shipping signs. It can be interpreted as romance... or a sign of friendship. That's what happened to Misty's Lure for instant. I remember how shippers took it as a sign that Ash has romantic feelings for Misty... but then when Ash finally reunites with Misty in Sun & Moon, it was treated like some platonic friendship reunion.

Having the blue ribbon doesn't keep SatoSere alive, I'm afraid. The writers could easily rewrite it as a reminder of Ash being a role model to Serena rather than someone she really loves. What keeps SatoSere alive is the actual interaction. How convenient that Ash and Serena only had about 30 seconds of being together before being separated by the ship. Considering Japan's love of cherry blossoms for their symbolism of life and love, this is pure romance here.

Japanese people are madly in love with cherry blossom viewing and everything it represents. It is precisely because the gentle blossoms easily and quickly wither and fall that they are loved so much. It is a notion called mono no aware or ‘bittersweet awareness of the impermanence of things’. This mindset is the belief that this impermanence needs to be cherished and not mourned.

Serena's reunion with Ash is brief like cherry blossoms. It's beautiful but then withers away due to outside circumstances. Serena cherishes this brief moment at the docks, like a person cherishing the image of cherry blossoms floating down from the trees and on to the ground. But it's not the permanent end because the cherry blossoms will return next spring, just like Ash will return to Serena like he does for all his companions.

It is this kind of romantic theme that ensures Amourshipping as the ship to end all ships. When it comes to Ash's reunion with friends, Serena stands out as the most limited and yet most impactful. Like it has been years since she last saw him. The rest of Ash's friends? They all act as if they haven't seen Ash in a few weeks rather than months or years.

 

[ibelinssj]

So using the ribbon to tie the beads of the ankle bracelet that she use on her left leg during performance is not enough? Too demanding.