Amourshipping Thread V3

[Satoshi no masara]

If Ash actually wins this tournament and becomes essentially the league-certified greatest trainer in the world, it's not so far-fetched to think he'll be retired after that. Idk what the Gen 9 series would look like though.

They wouldn't want a repeat of the great Kalos league disaster now do they? If Ash lose to Leon, I expect mass outrage once more. Hope Anipoke PR are ready for another mass downvote in one of their YT videos.

Anyway, there's really no better time to retire Ash than this season. I've said this in a last post but heck, I wanna say it again, he's already been fully fleshed out and I don't see how they can improve his character beyond what he is. Just retire him and have a new character to be the MC of the next season. Perhaps they can do a Naruto where he can cameo regularly as an adult married to Serena (or at least imply they are dating)

Since I'm sure JN's domestic reception will lead to the next...whatever they do with the show, I hope XY's popularity prevailed over both JN and SM, and that JN105's popularity (and the upcoming Greninja episode) proves to the writers that people want more of what they got in XY.

XY's legacy has truly set the bar way too high. JN105's massive popularity shows just how much influence a XY character has to the show. Once Greninja returns, I expect it will have the same impact that the Serena cameo episode had, perhaps better if they did a surprise as well. The only thing that JN can do to surpass XY is perhaps having Ash win against Leon

 

[Spider-Phoenix]

Do we have data of Ash's Alola League win vs episodes like Serena's return? It'd be a fun piece to gauge on what get people talking the most.

I don't know what exactly makes you so cynical about the anime lately. Even if these so-called JN writers are bad, this particular episode writer is a veteran dating back to 1998 at least, and with a several XY episodes on his name to boot. One of which may be one of the few and only instances where Ash actually feels something different towards Serena (specifically when he saw her in her Fennekin outfit).

I thought Yonemura's first episode was on 97 but turns out it was indeed very later, on 98.

Bulbapedia credits as episode 69 called "Lights, Camera, Quack-tion" by 4Kids. Checking the japanese wiki (and assuming its fame of being more accurate than wikis normally are still stands), it was actually Snow Way Out. At least going for by the order they were aired. Which was my favorite ever episode in the first show.

Yonemura knows Ash well so I think he did a very elegant tale of how to address the ship without having to go too hard on romance stories tropes

This episode made me stop in over there for the first time in a few months.

Also, felt like checking it out after a while because of it too. Serena is worthy ignoring any reasons that might made me go on hiatus.

Still better than 4chan. Can't talk about Serena without getting dogpiled. Surprisingly, most of the dogpiling comes from Dawn fans. Good to see an injection of new fanart.

Just like the Ash vs Goh stuff, I feel like the odd man out as I like both Serena and Dawn. I could watch a series starred by all four of them really (they are never giving me an utopia lol)

My theory is that Yajima saw all those "Red is better than Ash" and "Ash is a terrible trainer" memes, and realized that his childhood hero isn't getting the respect he deserves for being a child of pure heart.

So when he took up helms of directing XY, he took all the good elements from Red (namely his more sleek design in FRLG and his early, energetic kind personality displayed in the original artworks) and gave them to Ash while creating a character based around Red's bad aspects imposed by the fans (aloof, serious, older, frowning badass from Pixiv with a Charizard at hand). Thus was born Alain.

That was the foundation. The next thing he did was securing Ash's future by having everyone in Kalos know Ash thanks to his heroics at Lumoise Tower. And instead of older companions looking over him, he'll have younger companions looking up to him. League or no League, Ash will be remembered as a great trainer under Yajima's watch. And that brings us to Serena.

Yeah, Serena would represent a future that people made fun of Ash for. That he would never grow up and that even if he did, he won't have a wife or family. Just end up like an adult loser like Team Rocket or something based on some alleged Shudo notes. This is where Serena's crush on Ash comes to play. That crush would tell everyone that even Ash can get some romantic love in his life, and he is not destined to be a loser like so many claimed .

I actually quite like this reading. I guess Yajima wanted to show off that Ash does indeed have some of Red's coolness. I think his execution was quite elegant as it was very respectful for Ash's portrayal up until that point while also trying to advance his character.

Design expressed that concept quite well. We could see the design tracing back to the origins of Ash as a counterpart for Red:

(ignore pic quality as it was a low effort montage by yours truly at the time XY was still airing)

Ash XY gear looks only artificially like Calem's default outfit. Its true influence was Red's FRLG look. Black shirt with a "jacket" (don't know if it's the correct term in english), a loose colar, the overall pattern in the cap they are wearing. The overall designs ideas are all similar (also noticed Ash uses shoes while Calem's default had boots-esque shoes). I think it was in the AnimeStyle 10 interview Yajima mentioned Red's design as an influence for Ash's look on XY.

Revisitting this comparison pic, after so many years, I love the pokéball position in both kind of mirror each other. Also, they somewhat oppose each other as Red is serious while Ash is smiling.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

They wouldn't want a repeat of the great Kalos league disaster now do they? If Ash lose to Leon, I expect mass outrage once more. Hope Anipoke PR are ready for another mass downvote in one of their YT videos.

Anyway, there's really no better time to retire Ash than this season. I've said this in a last post but heck, I wanna say it again, he's already been fully fleshed out and I don't see how they can improve his character beyond what he is. Just retire him and have a new character to be the MC of the next season. Perhaps they can do a Naruto where he can cameo regularly as an adult married to Serena (or at least imply they are dating)


XY's legacy has truly set the bar way too high. JN105's massive popularity shows just how much influence a XY character has to the show. Once Greninja returns, I expect it will have the same impact that the Serena cameo episode had, perhaps better if they did a surprise as well. The only thing that JN can do to surpass XY is perhaps having Ash win against Leon

I don’t know if it’ll have the same impact as Serena’s because there’s a large chance that this will be Greninja’s only episode of the series and it won’t come back to Ash which should cause outrage. Imo Greninja’s arc ended poorly with the Kalos League loss and it’s release, it was an interesting concept but a wasted arc and Greninja got way too much exposure and hype compared to what we actually got. Yeah I feel like Ashs Greninja is overrated af and got done dirty

 

[Shadao]

......and still Alain beat Ash in the league ugh

Well, the one variation of that old tired meme basically states that Red is better than Ash because he wins the Pokémon League... and I think Testuo Yajima and Daiki Tomiyasu both realize that how unhealthy of a message it would be for someone's worth to be determined on winning the League, a League where only one out of a hundred or more trainers is crowned the champion. If Ash were to beat Alain in the Kalos League, would that change perception of Ash compared to Red? No, of course not. They'll find a way to make Red better than Ash by saying Ash only won because imitated Red and that he's not fast enough like Red or something like that...

And if you can't win them over with Ash winning the League, then you can certainly tear down all the aspects of Red they love with a Pyrrhic victory for Alain. Hence why the Team Flare finale comes directly after the Kalos League finale. No matter the situation, Ash will always get back up to protect his friends, while Alain is frozen in guilt because he never saw this coming. Being someone who wants to do things alone to get stronger and protect his friends didn't give him the courage and will to fight against Lysandre. He was so focused on his own strength at that moment rather than the strength of others like Ash did. It's only when Ash reminds Alain about the people he cared about through his own speech against Lysandre that Alain gets the will to fight.

And that's something I think is the biggest difference between Ash and how fans perceived Red. Everyone wants Red to be a loner, a stoic badass who has to be the very best like no one ever else. No connections to anyone, not even his own mother. That's what fans perceived of Red in GSC and that's what touted as Red being better than Ash. Bah! What an edgelord life that is! This is what fans want their childhood hero to grow up into?

Perhaps that's why Serena's love for Ash is emphasized to be that young, kind boy who helped in the forest, smiling at her and telling her to never give up. That is the Ash she fell in love with it, that is the true Ash, and that is why her love endured despite Ash being so dense about romance. If Serena had loved an edge lord like Pixiv Red, then I think she loved a shadow rather than a character. That is a character that she needs to get over and moved on, even if "Red" is more grownup than Ash. Because really, that Red isn't grown up or mature at all when you look behind the surface. Even Ash is more mature and grown up than Pixiv Red.

 

[Satoshi no masara]

One of the official animator of anipoke made this lovely illustration with a blue ribbon in the back. Note that this is made as a fanart/tribute and by no means owned by the official anipoke PR (but hey, at least one of the animators acknowledged the blue ribbon so that's good too)

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1515258577510105090

I can finally change my phone's wallpaper

 

[Panky..]

Well, the one variation of that old tired meme basically states that Red is better than Ash because he wins the Pokémon League... and I think Testuo Yajima and Daiki Tomiyasu both realize that how unhealthy of a message it would be for someone's worth to be determined on winning the League, a League where only one out of a hundred or more trainers is crowned the champion. If Ash were to beat Alain in the Kalos League, would that change perception of Ash compared to Red? No, of course not. They'll find a way to make Red better than Ash by saying Ash only won because imitated Red and that he's not fast enough like Red or something like that...

And if you can't win them over with Ash winning the League, then you can certainly tear down all the aspects of Red they love with a Pyrrhic victory for Alain. Hence why the Team Flare finale comes directly after the Kalos League finale. No matter the situation, Ash will always get back up to protect his friends, while Alain is frozen in guilt because he never saw this coming. Being someone who wants to do things alone to get stronger and protect his friends didn't give him the courage and will to fight against Lysandre. He was so focused on his own strength at that moment rather than the strength of others like Ash did. It's only when Ash reminds Alain about the people he cared about through his own speech against Lysandre that Alain gets the will to fight.

And that's something I think is the biggest difference between Ash and how fans perceived Red. Everyone wants Red to be a loner, a stoic badass who has to be the very best like no one ever else. No connections to anyone, not even his own mother. That's what fans perceived of Red in GSC and that's what touted as Red being better than Ash. Bah! What an edgelord life that is! This is what fans want their childhood hero to grow up into?

Perhaps that's why Serena's love for Ash is emphasized to be that young, kind boy who helped in the forest, smiling at her and telling her to never give up. That is the Ash she fell in love with it, that is the true Ash, and that is why her love endured despite Ash being so dense about romance. If Serena had loved an edge lord like Pixiv Red, then I think she loved a shadow rather than a character. That is a character that she needs to get over and moved on, even if "Red" is more grownup than Ash. Because really, that Red isn't grown up or mature at all when you look behind the surface. Even Ash is more mature and grown up than Pixiv Red.

It's worth noting that Serena actually rejected the edgy-Red traits that were surfacing in Ash, and told him to get his head straight. It's only when Ash became himself that she willingly forgave him happily.

One of the official animator of anipoke made this lovely illustration with a blue ribbon in the back. Note that this is made as a fanart/tribute and by no means owned by the official anipoke PR

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1515258577510105090

There we go. Official animators/staff members addressing the ribbon is always going to be much more valid proof than some third party outsourced chibi artist.

 

[Power Up]

This is sort of reminiscent of when Iwane, Ohashi, and Nishiya all went on their social medias and mentioned their discontent with Ash losing in the Kalos League finals way back when.

Great art by Oshida. I wish he did more KA for JN. One of the show's strongest new animators, but it seems that he's been held back a bit by the production at times for individual episodes

 

[Blood Red]

This is sort of reminiscent of when Iwane, Ohashi, and Nishiya all went on their social medias and mentioned their discontent with Ash losing in the Kalos League finals way back when.

Gotta love it when even then-current anime staff wasn't on-board with the whole Kalos loss. Really makes you wanna believe in the whole 'Ash losing Kalos was last-minute' thing.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

One of the official animator of anipoke made this lovely illustration with a blue ribbon in the back. Note that this is made as a fanart/tribute and by no means owned by the official anipoke PR (but hey, at least one of the animators acknowledged the blue ribbon so that's good too)

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1515258577510105090

I can finally change my phone's wallpaper

OMG I LOVE THIS!!!!!

 

[cf16polo]

Heey guys it's been a long long time since the last time i participated in this thread, time flies for sure
Anyway, Ive been thinking a lot about these things since the episode Aired and i want to know what u think about it and give me your opinion:
1.- Just like Ash and dawn shared their phone numbers off-screen (Ash and serena didnt do the same thing since they barely interacted in that episode) do think Chloe and serena could have done the same thing? (In that way they can keep in touch)
2.- in their way back to kanto, do u think Ash told goh or chloe the kind of friendship he had with serena while traveling together and in the process he tells them she ended up kissing him (or at least give hints of what happened)?
3.- what would be Chloe's reaction if She finds out that serena kissed Ash? (Would she be mad at Ash for being dense?) Would she call serena to ask her if what Ash told her it's true?
Would she try to reunited them together in a way to ship them? (Just as she tried to ship together
Chrysa with the psyduck trainer)
This last week episode left me stunned in many ways, it reminds me of the hype i used to feel back in 2015-2016 when XY(Z) aired.....
Anyway, what are your thoughts about what i said? Damn.... I missed to participate in this thread!

 

[masdog]

Heey guys it's been a long long time since the last time i participated in this thread, time flies for sure
Anyway, Ive been thinking a lot about these things since the episode Aired and i want to know what u think about it and give me your opinion:
1.- Just like Ash and dawn shared their phone numbers off-screen (Ash and serena didnt do the same thing since they barely interacted in that episode) do think Chloe and serena could have done the same thing? (In that way they can keep in touch)
2.- in their way back to kanto, do u think Ash told goh or chloe the kind of friendship he had with serena while traveling together and in the process he tells them she ended up kissing him (or at least give hints of what happened)?
3.- what would be Chloe's reaction if She finds out that serena kissed Ash? (Would she be mad at Ash for being dense?) Would she call serena to ask her if what Ash told her it's true?
Would she try to reunited them together in a way to ship them? (Just as she tried to ship together
Chrysa with the psyduck trainer)
This last week episode left me stunned in many ways, it reminds me of the hype i used to feel back in 2015-2016 when XY(Z) aired.....
Anyway, what are your thoughts about what i said? Damn.... I missed to participate in this thread!

1. Yes.
2. Probably some details, but not too much. I suspect that this may come back later (see 3)
3. So…this one’s a little harder. I think we would see a range of reactions. I don’t think Chloe would be mad at Ash after finding out Serena kissed him, but we would probably get a snarky cat-faced moment where she reacts to how dense he was/is. I also think that she will try to set them up similar to the Psyduck/Chrysa episode, especially when she learns where most of the advice came from.

 

[Falconmaroni]

So there you have it, an official animator drew art with the blue ribbon in the background, proving they haven't forgotten it. No idea why people were saying it was retconned. It didn't need to be brought up in the actual episode, it's just a piece of symbolism now. So I don't see how anyone can say the way they addressed the ship was disappointing now. Serena has long since grown that she doesn't blush uncontrollably just seeing Ash again.

 

[cricketlaxwolvesbandy]

Serena needs to gift Ash a new outfit like he gave her the ribbon
And also vs Leon Serena should shout “don’t give up until its over” which causes Ash to win and then they confess after the battle
There needs to be an episode where Ash realizes his feelings for Serena

 

[Epicocity]

Serena needs to gift Ash a new outfit like he gave her the ribbon
And also vs Leon Serena should shout “don’t give up until its over” which causes Ash to win and then they confess after the battle
There needs to be an episode where Ash realizes his feelings for Serena

Uh...exactly what show do you think you're watching...?

One thing for fanfics to do it, but even in the XY era, they weren't gonna do this, especially for Ash who has all the romantic intelligence of a rock.

 

[masdog]

And also vs Leon Serena should shout “don’t give up until its over” which causes Ash to win

Having Serena shout something to Ash to help him win would be a nice callback to the 2nd Viola battle in XY.

then they confess after the battle
There needs to be an episode where Ash realizes his feelings for Serena

There is only one way the show can effectively do this, and that is after a time skip to age both characters up.

 

[Power Up]

Gotta love it when even then-current anime staff wasn't on-board with the whole Kalos loss. Really makes you wanna believe in the whole 'Ash losing Kalos was last-minute' thing.

It's because animators don't have any influence on the story side of the show. Hell, Nishiya was Animation Director for the Kalos League finale and Iwane was solo KA for the first episode and both were annoyed at having to see Ash lose.

I don't know if people actually think " official animator drawing the ribbon " proves anything. I'm pretty sure Oshida wasn't even credited on the episode. I don't know about him, but most animators are freelancers. Implying that they're anime staff the same way directors, producers, etc are is a mischaracterization of the amount of influence an animator has.

Edit: Lol, I just checked his Twitter account again and he literally has " illustrations are not official and are just fan art " in his bio.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Well, the one variation of that old tired meme basically states that Red is better than Ash because he wins the Pokémon League... and I think Testuo Yajima and Daiki Tomiyasu both realize that how unhealthy of a message it would be for someone's worth to be determined on winning the League, a League where only one out of a hundred or more trainers is crowned the champion. If Ash were to beat Alain in the Kalos League, would that change perception of Ash compared to Red? No, of course not. They'll find a way to make Red better than Ash by saying Ash only won because imitated Red and that he's not fast enough like Red or something like that...

And if you can't win them over with Ash winning the League, then you can certainly tear down all the aspects of Red they love with a Pyrrhic victory for Alain. Hence why the Team Flare finale comes directly after the Kalos League finale. No matter the situation, Ash will always get back up to protect his friends, while Alain is frozen in guilt because he never saw this coming. Being someone who wants to do things alone to get stronger and protect his friends didn't give him the courage and will to fight against Lysandre. He was so focused on his own strength at that moment rather than the strength of others like Ash did. It's only when Ash reminds Alain about the people he cared about through his own speech against Lysandre that Alain gets the will to fight.

And that's something I think is the biggest difference between Ash and how fans perceived Red. Everyone wants Red to be a loner, a stoic badass who has to be the very best like no one ever else. No connections to anyone, not even his own mother. That's what fans perceived of Red in GSC and that's what touted as Red being better than Ash. Bah! What an edgelord life that is! This is what fans want their childhood hero to grow up into?

Perhaps that's why Serena's love for Ash is emphasized to be that young, kind boy who helped in the forest, smiling at her and telling her to never give up. That is the Ash she fell in love with it, that is the true Ash, and that is why her love endured despite Ash being so dense about romance. If Serena had loved an edge lord like Pixiv Red, then I think she loved a shadow rather than a character. That is a character that she needs to get over and moved on, even if "Red" is more grownup than Ash. Because really, that Red isn't grown up or mature at all when you look behind the surface. Even Ash is more mature and grown up than Pixiv Red.

While I like this take, it doesnt really work for me
The fact is Red was never really evil and wouldn't really be written that way that Alain was, considering Red canonically refused to join TR and beat them all the same. Heck Origins representation showed him to be firmly against what Alain would do, which is be helpless against the clutches of an evil team
Plus Alain being the moral loser against Ash, while a nice concept doesnt really hit home well enough for me tbh

 

[Shadao]

While I like this take, it doesnt really work for me
The fact is Red was never really evil and wouldn't really be written that way that Alain was, considering Red canonically refused to join TR and beat them all the same. Heck Origins representation showed him to be firmly against what Alain would do, which is be helpless against the clutches of an evil team
Plus Alain being the moral loser against Ash, while a nice concept doesnt really hit home well enough for me tbh

Of course, Red wouldn't do that. He's too much like Ash, more than fans would like to admit.

There's a reason why I said all the negative aspects imposed by fans or Pixiv Red. These memes wouldn't have worked if Red acts like Ash.

Look at all those Reds up there. Notice that only one stands out from the rest? That's Pixiv Red, a fan made perception. The only Red that is significantly older and not smiling whereas every other Red incarnation is smiling and young.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Of course, Red wouldn't do that. He's too much like Ash, more than fans would like to admit.

There's a reason why I said all the negative aspects imposed by fans or Pixiv Red. These memes wouldn't have worked if Red acts like Ash.

Look at all those Reds up there. Notice that only one stands out from the rest? That's Pixiv Red, a fan made perception. The only Red that is significantly older and not smiling whereas every other Red incarnation is smiling and young.

Ahh, yeah I get you. I just really hope that if Alain returns, they bring up the Ash being the moral victor point again in JN and flesh it out more, maybe it could help me appreciate it more like how JN did for me with Serena and amourshipping

 

[PotSmuggle]

Ngl back when XY was airing, I thought everything was aligning perfectly for Ash to win his first league. When Alain turned out to be his last opponent, it looked guaranteed to me with how Ash (iirc) hasn't taken a single battle against him and how Alain still hadn't received a much needed loss to lead to some moral reflection lol.

This is looking like an unpopular opinion, but I don't feel like Ash's journey must or even should end if he becomes the Champion of a League/PWC, nor would it be necessary for Amour's endgame. For starters of course, reaching #1 doesn't mean he's learned all he could know in terms of his goal and battling. After all, defending that title is a lot harder than reaching it, and there would be a lot of potential reasons why Ash might eventually decide to build up a new team for the next generation after that.

As for Amour, I don't care for progression going as far as a timeskip of the two married. Personally I would simply be satisfied with Ash and Serena just officially being made as a couple (even if they can't realistically have episodes together often). I prefer this approach because a timeskip would close us off from getting more Amour content between the two characters if the series shifts focus to a new protagonist or gatekeeps any further development into the distant future, but I understand that others really want more to come out of their relationship though.