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An Island Kahuna is Born! Ash's Grand Trial!! (1052)

ShadowForce720

Well-Known Member
So this is perfectly fine even though it clearly violates game mechanics, yet what Ash did is apparently the biggest offense ever? That's what i'm not getting here.

Either way i'm tired of arguing over this episode, I agree that it's not the best battle Ash has ever had but at least there was some degree of innovation on his part which is the reason I find it tolerable.

Only thing I still want to know is what Hapu said during the end scene, cause it sounded to me like she was denying being lonely, I didn't hear Ash brought up specifically.


That's not same thing, when a Ground type move actually makes contact it's not changing the pokemon's type, your misunderstanding flying type immunity to Ground type moves, you think it's a complete immunity where even if the move hits the flying type pokemon in the anime that it won't do damage when this has already been proven not to be the case, if you look back at the 3rd gym battle in Kalos you will notice that even though Hawlucha is part flying type it still took damage from Mega Lucario's Bone Rush despite Bone Rush being a Ground type move and Lucario not using Smack Down or Gravity and this is because the move made contact with Hawlucha.

The reason why the games don't show this is because the games own limitation in that you can't really make your average Ground type moves have a chance of making contact because then you would have weird cases like Earthquake hitting a flying type pokemon while it's in the air. Basically when a pokemon in the games has the flying type it's always treated as being in the air even if you see it standing on the ground unless you use a move like Smack Down or Gravity.

However since the anime isn't bound to the restrictions and limitations that the games are, it means they can actually show whether or not the ground type move makes contact, in the anime flying types only immunity to Ground type moves is when they are out of reach of the move however if the Ground type move makes contact with the flying type pokemon it will do damage for instance if Rowlet was knocked down to the ground and was touch the ground when Bulldoze makes contact then there is no reason why Bulldoze shouldn't do damage.

Where as in the case of what Ash did here was the Seawater literally changed the typing of Mudsdale to being a pure Water type even though outside of the first gym battle of the OS water never really stated to have the effect of removing a Ground type pokemon's Ground typing and replacing with a Water typing.

Basically the 2 situations aren't the same in the case of Mudsdale knocking Rowlet down and hitting it with a Ground type move that winds up making contact with Rowlet and doing damage is not changing or removing Rowlet's flying type while, in the case of Ash's Pikachu using the Seawater to make Mudsdale vulnerable to Electric attacks and was said to be the same as using the move Soak which changed Mudsdales Ground typing to Water typing.
 

Joltik-Kid

Careful? Where's the fun in that?
Gotta be the most disappointing final battle of a main quest since Ash's battle with Team Rocket for the Earth Badge. Never thought the Roxie battle would upstage anything this show had to offer moving forward, but here we are.
 

British Soul

Top Hat Regulator
For some reason, when Mudsdale stopped the Iron Tail with its Double Kick, I was reminded of Diamond & Pearl when Paul's Electivire stopped Pikachu's Iron Tail in its tracks and attacking with another part of its body.
 

Sceptile Leaf Blade

Nighttime Guardian
I liked this episode overall. The inauguration ceremony for Hapu was beautiful. Hapu's dance was very pretty and reminiscent of Tapu Fini. Tapu Fini blessing Hapu's Z-Ring and all the water going up gave it a sense of spirituality and sanctity. I'm glad that they did this, it makes the Kahuna more than just a job.

I don't like the excuse the episode used for delaying the Grand Trial further with the tides. It was earlier established that the entrance to the Ruins of Hope is underwater during high tides, and here they could just walk out so it was low tide. Then they walk around the corner and it's suddenly high tide? Tides don't work that way. I get that they didn't want to immediately jump into the Grand Trial and wait for nightfall because it changes the atmosphere to have a battle in the dark, but I think they should've come up with a better reason to do it at that time than the tides. What is it with Sun and Moon not understanding moon-related stuff like this? They already messed up the moon cycles a couple of times (sleepover episode was full moon, a few days later when Lillie and Gladion run off to go save their mother it's quarter moon and a week is missing. Lunala appears on full moon, yet the day after is a solar eclipse even though those two events are mutually exclusive so close together).

The battle itself was cool. I'm a bit disappointed we didn't also get to see Golurk in battle, and I think a 2v2 would've been better. The writers leave Ash's reasoning for going with Pikachu a bit in the dark. Out-of-universe it makes sense, Rowlet would've had a big advantage over Mudsdale, while with Pikachu Ash is challenged extra. In the first Grand Trial he started with an advantage, the second Grand Trial was a double battle, the third Grand Trial he had to fight three pokémon with one of his own, and here he had to overcome an enormous disadvantage. But in-universe it doesn't make much sense that Ash picked Pikachu, and that's a bit disappointing.
'
The battle itself between Pikachu and Mudsdale was cool. Hapu tried to throw Ash off his game from the first move, usually Ash is the one who takes the initiative with the first move but Hapu cut ahead here to set the pace. And while Ash and Pikachu could avoid too much damage with Pikachu's speed it was quite quickly obvious that Pikachu couldn't really damage Mudsdale. Hapu still needs to train a bit more and get better, she didn't really have a solid answer to Pikachu's speed until she started to try cutting it off with Stomp. Hapu's Z-Move looked cool, although Pikachu avoiding most of it by running away underground was a bit bs. Pikachu saving itself with Electroweb was really creative and cool, I like that a lot.
 

mehmeh1

Not thinking twice!
For me it's like this:
104: ok
105: great
106: good, but too compressed
107: great
108: amazing
109: underwhelming
 

satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
I'm not sure how to feel about the battle itself... I'll highlight the positives:

-First of all, the episode being Pikachu (& Ash) centric is an automatic positive in my book.
-I loved that we could hear the Pokémon battling in the background as we listen to the classmates discuss it as it' happening. It was also cool that while the audience is watching the battle unfold in front of them, they're not immune to it's effects (getting soaked in water when another pillar fell). It reminded me how dangerous battling can be if we pretend Pokémon battling existed in the real world.
-Banbadoro's Z Move sequence. It was animated beautifully. The battle greatly showed how much of a sturdy Pokémon it is.
-Hapu guessing what Ash's counterattack was. While it made me feel Ash was a bit of an idiot to yell out what he was going to do, at least he didn't actually say how he was going to perform the counterattack but seeing how Hapu is still a child like her friends, I doubt she would've known what to expect and how to prepare for it.
-Pikachu picking the Z Crystal. Golden moment right there! ;~;

Now onto my true feelings....
Is it me or has the battles been so lazy these past few episodes? I was yelling for Ash to command Pikachu to use Quick Attack as Banbadoro was getting closer to him. And why was Pikachu just standing there, doing nothing right after Hapu commanded the Z Move?! e knew what was going to happen (and that current line breaking through the ground was a blatant warning), yet, he just stood there and took it!! I'm surprised at how stupid Pikachu (and Ash for that matter) were acting in this battle! What an insult!

And I'm having flashbacks of @DatsRight mentioning how dumb it is for the trainer to command his/her Pokémon to Dodge when it should do that by instinct. Like Ash, why didn't you command Pikachu to at least use Quick Attack while Banbadoro was charging at him? It could've been where even though Pikachu is trying to not get hit by Banbadoro's Z Move, Banbadoro was just too fast to evade. And can I say how stupid it was for Ash to remember a forgettable moment from earlier as his "Eureka!" moment that helped him develop his counterattack? The whole battle, or at least Ash's strategy in this episode was so simple and uninteresting! Ash is supposed to wow not just his opponent but he audience as well! But yeah, good on you Ash for figuring out that splashing water will cause Pikachu's electric moves to have an effect...

The episode in general was okay. Some parts I liked (a.k.a. NOT the battle!) and some parts I didn't like. They really need to stop making the battle so simple and boring. It's like it replaced TR in how predictable the battles became lately! The battle was very underwhelming but outside of it, I enjoyed this episode. I wonder who the Pokémon at the end were....? :D

A quick note: I loved the cards during the PokeProblem. They changed it up a bit during the reveal. And poor Hapu's gonna feel lonely without the classmates.:p She looked adorable dancing at her inauguration, summoning Tapu Fini.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Fujisaku only started writing for the show this series, and he hasn't really had much experience with proper battles. In fact I think this is the first full official battle he's done, as in normal rules, two way damage and no plot armour crap involved (he's done two previous trials but they were naked in formula use, Pokemon gets curb stomped, learns new move, instantly wins). His character driven stuff tends to be okay (except when he needs to focus on Mallow :p) hence the early parts of the episode balancing it out well enough and at least making it palpable as an episode rather than a key arc battle. Otherwise yeah, this episode probably should have been given to another more experienced writer (though whoever decided it to be 1 v 1 REALLY cost it). It was interesting to have him do the opening and closing to the Poni arc however.

A downside to this series is that a lot of the new writers aren't really getting to test out writing proper battles until they're granted a main arc episode, which can have clumsy results at the most inappropriate of times. Yuka Miyata is similar, fun character stuff but hasn't done a single battle besides light bad guy curb stomps.
 
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FlygontheRavager

#1 Pokémon Anime Fan!
I'm not sure how to feel about the battle itself... I'll highlight the positives:

-First of all, the episode being Pikachu (& Ash) centric is an automatic positive in my book.
-I loved that we could hear the Pokémon battling in the background as we listen to the classmates discuss it as it' happening. It was also cool that while the audience is watching the battle unfold in front of them, they're not immune to it's effects (getting soaked in water when another pillar fell). It reminded me how dangerous battling can be if we pretend Pokémon battling existed in the real world.
-Banbadoro's Z Move sequence. It was animated beautifully. The battle greatly showed how much of a sturdy Pokémon it is.
-Hapu guessing what Ash's counterattack was. While it made me feel Ash was a bit of an idiot to yell out what he was going to do, at least he didn't actually say how he was going to perform the counterattack but seeing how Hapu is still a child like her friends, I doubt she would've known what to expect and how to prepare for it.
-Pikachu picking the Z Crystal. Golden moment right there! ;~;

Now onto my true feelings....
Is it me or has the battles been so lazy these past few episodes? I was yelling for Ash to command Pikachu to use Quick Attack as Banbadoro was getting closer to him. And why was Pikachu just standing there, doing nothing right after Hapu commanded the Z Move?! e knew what was going to happen (and that current line breaking through the ground was a blatant warning), yet, he just stood there and took it!! I'm surprised at how stupid Pikachu (and Ash for that matter) were acting in this battle! What an insult!

And I'm having flashbacks of @DatsRight mentioning how dumb it is for the trainer to command his/her Pokémon to Dodge when it should do that by instinct. Like Ash, why didn't you command Pikachu to at least use Quick Attack while Banbadoro was charging at him? It could've been where even though Pikachu is trying to not get hit by Banbadoro's Z Move, Banbadoro was just too fast to evade. And can I say how stupid it was for Ash to remember a forgettable moment from earlier as his "Eureka!" moment that helped him develop his counterattack? The whole battle, or at least Ash's strategy in this episode was so simple and uninteresting! Ash is supposed to wow not just his opponent but he audience as well! But yeah, good on you Ash for figuring out that splashing water will cause Pikachu's electric moves to have an effect...

The episode in general was okay. Some parts I liked (a.k.a. NOT the battle!) and some parts I didn't like. They really need to stop making the battle so simple and boring. It's like it replaced TR in how predictable the battles became lately! The battle was very underwhelming but outside of it, I enjoyed this episode. I wonder who the Pokémon at the end were....? :D

A quick note: I loved the cards during the PokeProblem. They changed it up a bit during the reveal. And poor Hapu's gonna feel lonely without the classmates.:p She looked adorable dancing at her inauguration, summoning Tapu Fini.

Quite honestly, I found the strategies to be the best part of the fight. Pikachu using Electroweb to save itself from falling and then splashing Mudsdale ala-Pewter Gym made it much more interesting than it would’ve been otherwise.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Quite honestly, I found the strategies to be the best part of the fight. Pikachu using Electroweb to save itself from falling and then splashing Mudsdale ala-Pewter Gym made it much more interesting than it would’ve been otherwise.

Again this was probably the most developed Fujisaku has done in terms of a proper battle, with actual effective counters and a win decided more by wits and resource than plot armour or a lame opponent. It's okay for a standard battle, but not really as key gym/trial battle.

He did the Kommo-O trial as well come to think about it, which was a nice display for Lillie and Gladion in terms of strategy, but that one's merits were more as an action sequence, with the Totem posse itself an almost inanimate obstacle that didn't put up much of a fight. Here he was trying to make Mudsdale formidable while still have it believable Pikachu could beat it (even if he more or less no sold its Z Move).

I have to say moments like this make it obvious why they gave Pikachu Electro Web, it's really exploitable in terms of shielding and countering to give Ash a more clever streak in using Pikachu.
 
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satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
Quite honestly, I found the strategies to be the best part of the fight. Pikachu using Electroweb to save itself from falling and then splashing Mudsdale ala-Pewter Gym made it much more interesting than it would’ve been otherwise.
I liked the Electroweb scene as well. And I was pleasantly surprised (and happy) that Ash commanded Pikachu to use Electroweb again once Banbadoro was soaked with water instead of Thunderbolt, the move I expected him to use.
 

Twilight-Kun

Pokemon World Champion
The fact it's canon that Z-moves have a long windup time, as seen when Ash uses other people's Z-moves to his advantage (seen during Olivia and Nanu's battles) really makes everyone facing them into idiots for not doing something to get out of the way

At least in some battles they justify it by making the opponent woozy, stunned, or otherwise unable to move, hence why they gave Pikachu Electro Web

But it's still a MASSIVE windup period
 

dman_dustin

Well-Known Member
just saw the subs (may be innacurate, just saying so I don't get modded for accidentally spreading misinformation), and apparently rotom said the water flat out induced the effects of soak (as in, he refers to the move by name)

tbh, the choreography here was good, it's just that the battle was too short

Yeah sure, if we want to ignore that it was absolutely a Deus Ex Machina, then sure, but that's a problem, that they are conveniently saying that Mudsdale was "soaked" because of what "Alolan Sea Water" I'd be more understanding if it was explained that Tapu Fini can learn Soak and due its mythical/legendary properties induced SOAK into the water just because its a special ritual and there was residual properties. Instead "sea water" is the equivalent of a "Pokemon move" conveniently just so Pikachu can win. So I can at least admire that they at least said it was like SOAK the move, at least REFERENCING that aspect. But it doesn't make it any less bullcrap and ridiculous, especially when Pikachu could've just use Splishy Splash which would've served well for Pikachu.

Look if you know me, there are some things I let go, and am not bothered by and I even try to explain away the Deus Ex Machina, such as evolutions, they set the principle of Pokemon evolving whenever they want so mid battle evolutions do not count in my opinion as Deus Ex Machina, is it cheap and unfair, that's more debatable but DEM, no, because it was pre-established a long time ago that it happens. It's an acceptable within the mechanics of the anime universe. Perhaps it was DEM at a time, but it can no longer be seen as such. Tired and cliche trope? Sure, but not DEM.

However when you have situations like Pikachu vs Serperior, where Ash's Pikachu CLEARLY was knocked out, had NO reason to gain consciousness based on how the battle was presented and only came "back" to life just because Ash cried out "Pikachu!" was ridiculous, at least Sceptile against Darkrai made more sense, considering Sceptile actually survived Dream Eater, unlike Pikachu technically losing consciousness, but somehow activating 2nd win.

Then you have this episode, trying to say, the magical sea water conveniently caused the "soak" effect on ground type Pokemon. You know what would've been nice. IF THIS WAS ESTABLISHED earlier. Instead the ONLY reason Ash ordered Pikachu to use "electroweb" to trap Mudsdale within the context of this episode, is SIMPLY because "sea water" conducts electricity and it conveniently worked. There is NO amount of debate that could convince me that they didn't just pull this out of their asses as to justify Pikachu being used and defeating Mudsdale.

I wouldn't have been happy but I at least would've been more accepting of Breakneck Blitz, unfortunately they didn't do that, because Stamina raises defense, therefore they needed to use a special attack move for the basis of a Z move as opposed to physical like (quick attack) and was also technically weaker at a base level of 100 as opposed to 175 (using thunderbolt), and numbers don't count in the anime but I figure they wanted STAB as well as special Z-move instead of just a physical normal type z-move that Pikachu doesn't benefit.

But no, let's randomly let Pikachu win with Gigavolt Havoc because of Sea Water "splashing" Mudsdale making it weak to electricity, because why not?

The fact it's canon that Z-moves have a long windup time, as seen when Ash uses other people's Z-moves to his advantage (seen during Olivia and Nanu's battles) really makes everyone facing them into idiots for not doing something to get out of the way

At least in some battles they justify it by making the opponent woozy, stunned, or otherwise unable to move, hence why they gave Pikachu Electro Web

But it's still a MASSIVE windup period

Wind up doesn't matter, the execution does. The execution of the attack is likely the same speed as other moves.

You can't just see someone using breakneck blitz and tell your Pokemon to move two steps to the left, because the Pokemon hasn't executed the attack yet, it would be no different than yelling out Quick attack, and telling your Pokemon to move two steps to the left is going to prevent your Pokemon from being hit.

Execution of the moves is not static, they can still aim where they launch the attack just like any other attack. Therefore dodging will still have to rely on "waiting for the right time" not just simply the moment they start doing the Z-move poses just like any other move.

Edit:
If however you meant attacking the opponent during this phase, I think it's probably against the rules to attack immediately when a user performs a Z-move, only when the move is being executed I think is when you are allowed to do anything.

But I'm not sure.
 
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SoundVoltex

Well-Known Member
What poor animation quality considering the change in art style specifically for more fluid animation. The only saving grace was Pikachu utilizing Eletroweb, but the battle animation quality has dropped since the beginning of Sun and Moon. Definitely the least exciting Grand Trial or gym battle in a very long time...
 

AuraGuardian448

Aura Guardian
I expected more from this episode and trial, especially given it had Pikachu and Ash battling together and is suppose to be the last grand trial, respectively. I expected the pillars and water to be used, especially the latter, but episode could have used several more ideas. Anyway, one part I did like outside the use of Electro Web (even though we've seen Pikachu fall from similar heights before without relying on such an unnecessary tactic; I can think of an instance from DP and BW but especially the one during SM when Buzzwole sent Pikachu insanely high in the air, only for Pikachu to not only come falling down but increasing its already increasing velocity further with an attempted momentous downwards kick on Buzzwole, which btw it took no recoil damage from when it missed and collided straight on the ground) as well as Pikachu choosing the Steelium Z; it's a nice correlation to Pikachu's staple Iron Tail.
 

Evanibble

Well-Known Member
I agree that it was definitely not the best grand trial battle (imo Olivia's was the best), but it was o-kay. It's clearly the final one, they should have made the battle longer to include other Pokemon like Golurk (on Hapu's end) and Rowlet/Torracat (on Ash's end). They could have extended this battle into a second episode if they wanted and it could've worked.

I didn't expect Pikachu to be used (much less be the only one used), but I wasn't surprised by the choice either. In-universe the "soaking" sort of makes sense, and at the very least it is consistent with the rest of the anime (ie breaking the rules of the games, which seems to piss off a lot of people here, but I really don't mind it at all). The electroweb was easily the best part of the battle, and a great way to utilize Pikachu's non-damaging move in a battle against a ground type.

The inauguration was nicely done (like Kiawe telling everyone to shut up out of respect). Lastly, the way Ash got Steelium-Z was really well done. I knew beforehand he was going to get it, and the whole episode I was wondering what would lead to him getting that (like how he got Electrium-Z and Lycanium-Z), and wasn't disappointed. It was really the only non-BS way for him to get that Z-crystal that was totally unrelated to the battle or to himself. I wonder though, in-universe of course, what the reason was for Pikachu choosing Steelium-Z from the others (maybe he chose it randomly, or maybe he just knew the others wouldn't make much sense because he is an observant Pokemon in that way? I don't know; it doesn't matter but I find it interesting all the same).
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
I wonder though, in-universe of course, what the reason was for Pikachu choosing Steelium-Z from the others (maybe he chose it randomly, or maybe he just knew the others wouldn't make much sense because he is an observant Pokemon in that way? I don't know; it doesn't matter but I find it interesting all the same).

He already has Normalium Z and Electrium Z, which covers his moveset besides Iron Tail, a Steel type move.
 

Evanibble

Well-Known Member
He already has Normalium Z and Electrium Z, which covers his moveset besides Iron Tail, a Steel type move.

Makes sense, which is why I added the part about him being observant. Otherwise it just seems random, which would also be perfectly fine.

It's not really an important point :p just my musings about Pokemon's thought processes.
 

DatsRight

Well-Known Member
Makes sense, which is why I added the part about him being observant. Otherwise it just seems random, which would also be perfectly fine.

It's not really an important point :p just my musings about Pokemon's thought processes.

They go in and out with Pokemon sapience, though Pikachu tends to be one of the most consistently human-like in intellect after Meowth. He probably understands his move typings at least.

Or maybe it was just like a kid at the doctor's picking a lollypop colour, he liked the silver one. :p
 
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