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Ancient powers

Discussion in '6th Gen RMT' started by Smokin' weedle, Aug 30, 2016.

  1. Smokin' weedle

    Smokin' weedle Well-Known Member

    Remember that guy in red and bleu, who you had to battle for a fossil? Yeah, i lost to him twice. But that kabutops i got was awesome. You see where i am going with this? Yep, I made a full fossil team. The main problem is that they are all rock types, so all of then have the same weaknesses. Grass was easy: with an ice and bug type, and two flying types they are taken down easily. Fighting gave me more trouble: only archeops and earodactyl could work those down. And then there is ice: bastiodons steel type resisted it, but not much else. Then you have the fact that most have 4x weaknesses to something, making these all very weak at certain times. Anyway, enough talk, here's the team:

    Cradily@big roots
    Ability: storm drain
    Ev's: 252sp.att, 252sp,def, 4hp
    Nature: calm
    - ingrain
    - giga drain
    - stealth rock
    - earth power

    Cradily is the lead, set up stealth rocks, and then check how much the battle is in your favour. Having boosted regen from giga drain with big roots, you can keep cradily alive longer. Having earth power to take other pokemon down that resist grass, set aside from flying types. Ingrain can give you a nice basic recovery at all times.

    Archeops@snow ball
    Ability: defeatist
    Ev's: 252 att. 252Spe. 4Hp.
    - roost
    - rock slide
    - acrobatics
    - u-turn

    Archeops or m-aerodactyl, that was the main problem. Aerodactyl seemed like the best choice at first: batter stats and a usefull ability. But i still want with archeops. Archeops outclasses aerodactyl mainly in the gree item slot: with snow ball it can take one 4x weakness without damage, and an attack boost. After this acrobatics is an even better attack. Rock slide is a powerful STAB u-turn is for a quick retreat with some damage, and roost, well, lets say you don't want that ability to activate.

    Armaldo@life orb
    Ability: battle armor
    Ev's: 252 att. 252 def. 4 hp
    - x-scissor
    - metal claw
    - rapid spin
    - super power

    Armaldo is an attacker with some physical defence. losing hp with life orb will help smasing trough enemy's with x-scissors and metal claw. rapid spin speeks for itself, and superpower is just one massive damage move, but its best to retreat after that. Though not long lived, he is a force to think about

    Ability: sturdy
    Ev's: 252 def. 252 sp. def. 4 hp
    Nature: carefull
    - heavy slam
    - protect
    - block
    - toxic

    Bastiodon is a wall, and it can act like one too. It has some good bulky stats to show that. Locking opponents in with block, whilst slowly taking them down with toxic and protect is it's main cause. He is also nearly the only swap in for ice types, and with heavy slam the lighter ice types take some decent damage. Thanks to leftover healing he can sustain even more damage, and stall opponents longer.

    Tyrantrum@choice band
    Ability: rock head
    Ev's: 252 att. 252 spe. 4 hp
    Nature: adamant
    - head smash
    - iron head
    - superpower
    - zen headbutt

    Tyrantrum is a powerhouse. Very lovely. With head smash without recoil it can deal massive damege. Having superpower and iron head for ice types, iron head for fairys and zen headbutt for fighting types, it has pretty decent coverage. Thanks to the choice band head smash's power is increased into incredible heights. And, above that, it looks really awesome.

    Omastar@rocky helmet
    Ability: shell armor
    Ev's: 252 def. 252 sp. att. 4 hp
    Nature: modest
    - hydro pump
    - toxic spikes
    - iron defence
    - earth power

    Three pokemon had a chance to take this position: omastar, kabutops and carracosta. Kabutops lost right away, laking anything over the other two. Carracosta lost thanks to toxic spikes, wich it didn't have. And now omastar takes the last spot on the team, with toxic spikes and iron defense for stal agains physical sets, and with a STAB Hydro pump for main damage. Aside from that, it has earth power to help it with steel types.
    All hail the helix fossil!

    I will most likely get a lot of comments on the missing mega aerodactyl, but i choose archeops over it for the item slot, as normal aerodactyl is not as usefull. Wich is a shame becouse mega aerodactyl looks way cooler.

    The other pokemon I thought about was auroros, for the ice type, but the I choose for archeops, becouse I would have used aerodactyl over auroros.

    Enjoy this team! Or don't, I don't care.
  2. LynxForte

    LynxForte The Phoenix

    2 issues with the bolded statement

    1) Archeops doesn't have a 4x weakness
    2) Snowball only increases the attack stat if you're hit with an Ice type move

    And to say Aerodactyl is not useful in it's base form is just false. It is still much better than Archeops because it's ability doesn't hinder it and it's stats are overall better. Any item you would consider giving to Archeops, Aerodactyl can make better use of.
  3. Smokin' weedle

    Smokin' weedle Well-Known Member

    I mistook the ice weakness. It is an ice/rock type, so I automatically thought it had a 4x weakness. Nevertheless, i still think archeops outclasses base form aerodactyl, becouse of a higher attack stat, mega or normal. And, i know from experience that many people attack archeops with ice, mayby making the same mistake i made. Therefore snow ball is still a usefull item, but, it is very situational, and so you are correct that i need to change the item. Mayby a sitrus berry, as its ability is horrible.
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2016
  4. LynxForte

    LynxForte The Phoenix

    Given that base Aerodactyl can make better use of items such as Life Orb, it is the better pokemon for that reason. You can't put a Life Orb on Archeops because of it's ability. So Aerodactyl will put out more damage than Archeops

    252 Atk Life Orb Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 523-616 (179.7 - 211.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Archeops Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 492-578 (163.4 - 192%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    That is how they compare to each other. While they both OHKO, Aerodactyl is faster than a lot of pokemon and doesn't have it's ability hindering it.
  5. Smokin' weedle

    Smokin' weedle Well-Known Member

    That is true, but archeops has acces to u-turn, what was needed to take him out of dangerous situations. Aside from that, after eating his sitrus berry, most of the time removing ability effect, it can use a 100 base power acrobatics, wich gives batter coverage against fighting types then any of aerodactyls flying type moves. as this was the main use for archeops, I don't see why I should use aerodactyl. I want to, i just can't on this team
  6. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Master of the freak show

    U-Turn is nice but Aerodactyl's superior Speed, access to Taunt, and overall wider movepool make it the superior choice between the two for most situations.

    Since this is a theme team I won't really comment much, but why exactly can't you use Mega Aerodactyl? It IS a fossil after all, and is undeniably the superior choice over Archeops thanks to its blazing Speed, good Attack, and Tough Claws. I've never used Mega Aero in a competitive setting but I've used this set in the Maison and it performs admirably.

    Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
    Jolly - Pressure
    252 Speed, 252 Attack, 4 Sp. Def
    -Hone Claws
    -Stone Edge
    -Aerial Ace
    -Earthquake / Aqua Tail

    Hone Claws patches up Stone Edge's shaky accuracy and provides a decent boost to his Attack, letting him pretty much tear through frailer opponents without much effort at all. Stone Edge is the primary STAB, hitting very hard and accurately after a Hone Claws boost, while Aerial Ace benefits from Tough Claws and covers Fighting opponents. Earthquake is coverage for Steel types, but I also tried Aqua Tail to muscle past things like Landorus and Hippowdown. I'm not sure how effective this particular set is in a semi-competitive setting because I've never really used Mega Aero in tiered play or the Battle Spot or anything. There's just better Megas out there for most scenarios, but if you want a Fossil Mega, you don't really have any other choices.
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2016
  7. Smokin' weedle

    Smokin' weedle Well-Known Member

    I understand that m aerodactyl is very usefull, but here are the problems:
    1) taunt forces attacks, and aside from bastiodon, nothing can use that
    2) hone claws, though usefull, costs me a turn, and no matter how powerfull mega aero is, focus sash weavile is still to much of a problem
    3) u turn is really usefull, as i am already using archeops, and it does save you.
    I do like mega aerodactyl better then archeops (aerodactyl doesn't look like he crash landed in a paint store) but battle wise, archeops just seems better
  8. LynxForte

    LynxForte The Phoenix

    1) Aerodactyl can use taunt
    2) Roost costs you a turn you lose your flying typing which means Fighting types are a bigger problem
    3) U-turn is useful, but if it's constantly taking hits, how useful is it really? A move is only as good as the pokemon using it.

    And for last comment, this is why there is a tier system. Smogon lists base Aerodactyl as RU and M-Aerodactyl as UU. Archeops is NU. So, both forms of Aerodactyl are better (in your terms) battle wise.
  9. Smokin' weedle

    Smokin' weedle Well-Known Member

    1) aerodactyl can, but aside from bastiodon the rest can't
    2) that's what the sitrus berry is for
    3) u-turn is to avoid those hits
    And for your last comment: m mawile is uber, but any fire type resisting sucker punch and that is faster, can wreck it. Tiers don't say everything, though they say a lot, they are only as good as the trainer using them.
  10. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Master of the freak show

    Um no, Mega Aerodactyl is objectively better and more consistent than Archeops. Archeops is a piece of NU trash while Aerodactyl is one of the biggest threats in UU. Defeatist combined with an awful defensive typing that leaves it weak to many forms of priority and Stealth Rock means that it's just an awful Pokemon in general, while Aerodactyl is faster and achieves similar levels of power with MUCH more consistency.

    That being said this team isn't OU viable anyways. I assumed this was for monotype or general Battle Spot play, but the problem with these rigid theme teams is that they are not and never will be viable in tiered play unless you're willing to be extremely loose with your theme. Furthermore, your sets are all extremely questionable at best (Big Root? Metal Claw Armaldo? Iron Defense Omastar?), and the arguments you're putting forth to defend your choices are shoddy.

    Also, what on earth do you think Archeops is going to do to Weavile that Mega Aerodactyl isn't? At least Mega Aerodactyl outspeeds Weavile and can survive an Ice Shard without having its Attack cut in half.

    252 Atk Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 144-170 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO
    252 Atk Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 176-210 (60.4 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Furthermore Weavile outspeeds Archeops and flat out OHKOs with Icicle Crash, or puts you in Defeatist range with Knock Off. Choice Band variants have a 39.5% chance to OHKO you with Ice Shard.

    You also seem to be confused as to how a Snowball works. It doesn't prevent the damage or even reduce it. You take the full damage and then you get an Attack boost when hit by an Ice move. The problem is Archeops doesn't survive any Ice moves without being put into Defeatist range, so it's pretty much useless.
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2016
  11. Smokin' weedle

    Smokin' weedle Well-Known Member

    Big root supports ingrain and giga drain restoration, metal claw is last moment saving, and could be used as a ko move, with a lucky attack raise. And really, you're surprised i run a move boosting a pokemons second best stat? And i will not use aerodactyl, mainly for its lack of flying type support.
  12. MetalSonic

    MetalSonic Orderan' Defendan'

    >Leftovers over Big Root
    >Recover over Ingrain
    >Stone Edge over Metal Claw, its necessary coverage, with a lucky crit chance!
    >Tyrantrums set should be Head Smash/Dragon Claw/Earthquake/Zen Headbutt. Most relevant fairies are hit hard enough with Head Smash. Even Klefki is. Zen Headbutt usually isn't seen on Tyrantrum but I suppose an exception can be made for this team? Simply for the chance to dispatch Conkeldurr after hazards who otherwise happily clicks Drain Punch for all its HP back.
    >Archeops has a lot of attacking power, but its very frail. It likely wont do much even with the snowball boost due to Defeatist, so its probably better for you to not to use an item at all if you really want to take advantage of Acros boost. Aerodactyl is fantastic offensive flying support! Plus a mega cant hurt! If anything, at least try it!
    >Iron Defense on Omastar is really weird. You can change that to Ice Beam or even Spikes.

    Which tier do you plan on playin with this team on? If its Battle Spot, sure! Smogon formats may give you a bit more trouble though. If you're really keen on using Fossil mons, what you really wanna do is make different teams with each fossil! Kabutops works well enough on rain teams and since its what made you feel like makin a fossil team, it could deffo be for you.
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2016
  13. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Master of the freak show

    I'm starting to think your experience in competitive play consists of a few rounds at the Battle Spot...

    These are not valid arguments. Big Root will just about never restore as much HP as Leftovers unless you're Giga Draining a Swampert or something, and it does absolutely nothing if he doesn't use Giga Drain or Ingrain (Leftovers + Ingrain heals more than Big Root + Ingrain by the way). Metal Claw is "last moment saving"? What does that even mean? In what circumstance will Metal Claw ever do more damage than either Earthquake or Stone Edge? Even against threats like Diancie, Earthquake does just as much damage. And the 10% chance to get an Attack boost isn't worth having half the base Power of Earthquake.

    Iron Defence is a terrible idea on a Pokemon with no reliable recovery. You could run Spikes for a more supportive set but I'm partial to Shell Smash Omastar with Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Hidden Power (Grass) / Shell Smash. Despite being a relic from the 5th generation before DrizzleSwim was banned it's still great at breaking through teams once faster Scarfers are removed.

    Aerodactyl can use Aerial Ace to deal respectable damage thanks to Tough Claws. Having Acrobatics is not worth dealing with Defeatist, but at this point I'm just beating a dead horse. Multiple people have tried explaining to you in every possible manner with calcs to back it up that Aerodactyl is just superior to Archeops in almost every situation.
  14. KillerDraco

    KillerDraco The Enforcer Staff Member Super Mod

    So is no one going to mention that Ingrain is an outright lose condition for this team? With the inability to switch out once Ingrain is active, some VERY relevant threats can turn Cradily into literal setup bait, boost to +6, and then proceed to destroy this team. For example; Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, Dragonite, Salamence, etc. all have no problem coming in on this Ingrained Cradily since it can't switch out and they resist/are immune to both of its attacks, so there's really nothing stopping them from boosting as far as they can. Ingrain has exactly one use, and that's to be Baton Passed so that the recipient of a Baton Pass chain (Banned in tiered play btw) can't simply be phased out. However, on this team, Ingrain does less than nothing and can actually cause you to lose outright. It's just a bad move for Cradily; literally the only time it might be useful is if Cradily is your last Pokemon left, in which case, switching isn't an option.

    Drop it for Recover. This should not even be optional; Ingrain is quite literally a lose condition for this team, as it does more harm than good.
  15. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Master of the freak show

    I actually forgot Ingrain disables switching, so yeah, sorry for not spotting that. Even if it weren't for that fact it's still inferior to Recover in general, but that's just one problem among many on this team.
  16. Smokin' weedle

    Smokin' weedle Well-Known Member

    So far the only argument i think is good, is from killerdraco, and I didn't know it blocked my switch. In that case leftovers+Recover is the way to go
  17. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Master of the freak show

    That's fine, it's your team, but other people who, to be blunt, have more experience than you do have explained in excruciating detail why some of your other choices are simply bad, and I'm not even necessarily talking about just myself. The fact that you aren't even willing to consider playtesting with some of the changes Meta and Lynx suggested makes me wonder why you posted this in the first place.

    On the other hand this is a monotyped theme team anyways and wouldn't be viable in tiered play even if you gave them actually decent sets.
  18. Smokin' weedle

    Smokin' weedle Well-Known Member

    Everyone, i have to apologise, i can be the most stubborn person ever. I worked on this team for a few good hours, and was quite proud. As this immediately lead to a wrong pokemon i got agitated. Normally i can be normal after a good night of sleep, but becouse I overslept, i was even more annoyed. I should take your advice, you guys are indeed much better at this. I tried to make this team the same way lynx helped me make my new team (again, thank you), and was disappointed it got so much negative points.
    Anyway, now that i have returned to my senses, i shall accept your knowledge:
    Cradily gets leftovers and recover, losing ingrain
    I take aerodactyl over archeops (thank God, it is so much cooler)
    Metalsonic, i will take your set for tyrantrum
    Armaldo gets stone edge, losing iron claw
    Divine retribution, I'll use your aerodactyl
    Omastar gets ice beam, dropping iron defence

    Again, my apologies

    Now, could you guys tell me if bastiodon is good? To me it looks like a good combo, but i might be wrong
  19. Divine Retribution

    Divine Retribution Master of the freak show

    It's alright, I was pretty much the same way when I first got into competitive Pokemon. I think we all were to some degree or another.

    Bastiodon is very passive, having only 52 base Attack / 47 base Sp. Atk. This means it heavily relies on Metal Burst and Toxic to deal damage, since its offensive stats are just too low to really do much with other attacking moves. However it also lacks reliable recovery, meaning it usually only gets the chance to use Metal Burst once before fainting or being revengekilled, and it suffers from having a rather poor defensive typing that leaves it 4x weak to Fighting and Ground. However, since this is a fossil team you can't really use any of the options that outclass him (Ferrothorn, Skarmory, etc.) so I guess he's not a terrible pick. All 3 of the Gen 1 fossils have very viable niches. Kabutops makes a decent Rain sweeper with Sword's Dance / Stone Edge / Waterfall / Knock Off, but you don't really have a way to set Rain, and honestly setting up Rain would be a pretty terrible idea on a monorock Fossil team, as it turns weak Scalds from bulky Waters into OHKOs where they might otherwise 2HKO.

    Block is kind of gimmicky on Bastiodon. I can see it working in some scenarios if they keep a Pokemon that can't really threaten you in to set up hazards or something, but most of the time they're just going to switch into something that can flat out OHKO him (basically anything with Earthquake or Close Combat, sadly), so I'd consider replacing that with either Magic Coat to reflect Taunt and status moves or Roar to provide your team with a Sturdy phaser. Heavy Slam should be dropped for Metal Burst. Despite the fact that it's really a one shot cannon on a Pokemon like Bastiodon, it's by far and away the best way for him to deal damage and, in most matchups, guarantees that he gets at least one KO if his Sturdy is intact and your opponent doesn't realize you're carrying it.
  20. Smokin' weedle

    Smokin' weedle Well-Known Member

    I see, but still toxic and protect? And just wondering, but if i use something more sturdy (ferrethorn), could block and toxic be a good combo?

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