Antifa and Black Lives Matter vs. KKK and Neo Nazis:A battle of false equivalence

[Mordent99]

Do you think Klansmen should be flayed? Maybe they'll realize that skin color doesn't matter if they don't have skin.

I'd prefer Vlad the Impaler's method. After all, that's how he handled secretive groups conspiring against his government.

 

[windwakemeup]

I'd prefer Vlad the Impaler's method. After all, that's how he handled secretive groups conspiring against his government.

Do you two have any concept of chill like, at all? Having the government handle this is a bad idea. I mean, free speech protects you from the government doing this sort of thing. It doesn't mean you don't have any consequences for what you say (getting your *** beat by someone, social ostracize-ment, a private business firing you over your actions or words) but you too are going a bit too far. Unless you are both trolling, in which case carry on I guess.

also, on a not serious note: Shame and humility? In my Jontron? More unlikely than you think!

(If anyone gets that reference you get an internet cookie)

 

[Mordent99]

NOPE.

I'd really, really love seeing Klansmen executed via impalement. Or crucifixion. They are the lowest form of utter scum in this country.

Watch this. It's eye opening:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1nvP0LMGEc

 

[The Admiral]

I'm starting to get the feeling that Mordent99 and/or Sadib are actually accounts owned by the people who make Mortal Kombat to generate heat for a new antifa-themed character. In which case, guys, tell Ed Boon that I'd really like to have my likeness used for one of the guys getting tortured in the background of a stage, and if he agrees, I'll mail him out a picture and some gold brick I found lying around outside of a government building next week and we'll see if we can come to an agreement.

But in all seriousness, one of the things about violence not being your first resort is that you shouldn't spend time thinking about a systematic method of delivery in your spare time -- and by the way, yes, a large majority of antifascists do, as far as I can tell, consider violence to be a last resort. I don't have statistics, because anyone who would bother getting those is too busy writing hit pieces for WaPo and other outlets talking about how antifa -- treating antifascists like some kind of monolithic organization, which couldn't be further from the truth -- are equivalent to fascists, while trying really hard to not realize that this doesn't work. See, even if you believed that, that means that, because antifascists are a symptom of fascism as opposed to being the disease itself, and that antifascist sentiment would disappear from mainstream discourse if fascism were destroyed, as such an end to fascism is a great good which ends two evils.

Which would make you an antifascist.

But, I mean, we shat all over this argument earlier.

 

[Ghost94]

Anarchists I tell you, anarchists!

 

[Mordent99]

Admiral, you can argue all you want that the protesters in Charlettsville were "peaceful", but the facts remain, they were chanting "blood and soil", one of them was a murderer, and Trump tried to equate them with the counter protest.

Nazis were horrid monsters, and trying to equate anyone with them crosses the line.

Don't believe me? When Spielberg directed Shindler's List, he had to revise the script to make it less realistic, because he thought viewers would accuse him of exaggerating if he made it too accurate. Now, rent that movie, see how horrific the situation was depicted, and keep this in mind: you're watching the tamer, less accurate version.

 

[bobjr]

I think the point was more that if things get that bad then you have to take more direct action, but you can't be purely reactionary with this stuff, you have to find the problems as the source and fix them.

 

[Sadib]

also, on a not serious note: Shame and humility? In my Jontron? More unlikely than you think!

(If anyone gets that reference you get an internet cookie)

I don't get that reference. Does that mean JonTron has no shame or humility? I'm really saddened that the GameGrumps haven't called him out on being a racist pos.

 

[Scammel]

Start of thread: 'Antifa has no problem with violence, it's all made up, cherry syrup etc etc etc'

This flaming wreckage: 'Murder and torture are a-ok, you guys'

And so many of you seemed to wonder why I'm anti-political mob violence. These strange people have managed to get themselves this wound up on a Pokémon forum.

 

[chess-z]

The middle ground isn't always the most logical standpoint.

 

[Baba Yaga]

Start of thread: 'Antifa has no problem with violence, it's all made up, cherry syrup etc etc etc'

This flaming wreckage: 'Murder and torture are a-ok, you guys'

And so many of you seemed to wonder why I'm anti-political mob violence. These strange people have managed to get themselves this wound up on a Pokémon forum.

Do you always blow yourself like this?

Despite your whining, you've actually backpedaled from a lot of statements, namely:

Nah. The violent minority can take responsibility for their thuggery. It just highlights what utter cretins they are if they're so stupid they don't know how to intellectually combat Nazism.

And then when people "Jumped down your throat" you quoted Teshun or whatever his name is, agreeing with his more nuanced position that the violence from both parties is not equal and should be used as a last resort.

 

[Scammel]

Grow up.

And then when people "Jumped down your throat" you quoted Teshun or whatever his name is, agreeing with his more nuanced position that the violence from both parties is not equal and should be used as a last resort.

And that would be real interesting, if that was the argument being put forward. If you were being intellectually honest, you'd recap the fact that the OP's argument revolved around a flat denial that Antifa had any problems with violence at all (they do) and that they had ever laid a finger on anyone other than a card-carrying white supremacist (they have). The thread title's a misnomer - this didn't start as an attempt to deny equivalence, this was an attempt to whitewash a flawed movement.

I'm perfectly happy to stand by everything I've said. Antifa has a big problem with a minority of violent thugs in their membership, and they're not rendered morally superior to the rest of us because of the forces they claim to be opposing. We've been opposing Nazism perfectly well for decades, thanks.

Reposting because I like it:

Here's a list of things that can all be true:

- Nazism is the most repugnant ideology on the face of the Earth.
- Neo-Nazi and far-right movements have an alarming tendency towards violence and intimidation.
- The broad stated aims of white supremacy and the Antifa movement are not morally equitable.
- There is no monopoly on opposition to Nazism and it has been combatted by many ordinary and extraordinary people from across the political spectrum throughout history.
- The Antifa movement also has an alarming tendency towards violence and intimidation, though on a lesser scale.
- Many Antifa members are far too comfortable with the notion of political violence even if they are nonviolent themselves (see the 'punch a Nazi' trope).
- Innocent bystanders and journalists have been attacked at Antifa events by activists.
- Nonviolent Nazis and white supremacists should have the right to advocate their views without fear for their own safety.
- Anyone who feels the need to use violence against a nonviolent Nazi is openly advertising the fact that they are a glue-eating chimp without the faculties to intellectually challenge Nazism.

Not a mote of contradiction in any of that. Opposition to Nazism is such an easy, such a fundamentally human thing to do, that we should all be able to expect much, much better from this movement.

 

[chess-z]

We really haven't been. Pretending that there isn't an issue isn't the same as solving the issue.

 

[Baba Yaga]

Seriously, you've been stroking yourself this entire discussion and it's annoying as hell. It isn't immaturity to call it out.

And that would be real interesting, if that was the argument being put forward. If you were being intellectually honest, you'd recap the fact that the OP's argument revolved around a flat denial that Antifa had any problems with violence at all (they do) and that they had ever laid a finger on anyone other than a card-carrying white supremacist (they have). The thread title's a misnomer - this didn't start as an attempt to deny equivalence, this was an attempt to whitewash a flawed movement.

You were addressing my argument, not the OP's. Lord. You changed your argument from a snobbish "Only idiots/thugs can't challenge Nazism intellectually." to agreeing that violence can be used in limited circumstances.

- Anyone who feels the need to use violence against a nonviolent Nazi is openly advertising the fact that they are a glue-eating chimp without the faculties to intellectually challenge Nazism.

This is where you go off the rails. I stand by what I said earlier, that the ideology of Nazism is inherently violent, and when it's preached in large demonstrations it creates an atmosphere that becomes an inevitable powder keg like in Charlottesville, or even by lesser extent Donald Trump's rallies where minorites were often beaten. The problem with you is that you move the goal posts - when punching a nazi doesn't work, your beliefs about violence are confirmed - they play into the hands of the forces you're opposing, we're no better than they are, etc. but when it does work in deterring their demonstrations it's the "symptom of a sick society" or somehow it's worse when Nazis are forced back into twitter because they're "invisible" (The internet is so invisible.) than out in the open, posing direct threat to the public.

 

[Scammel]

You were addressing my argument, not the OP's. You changed your argument from a snobbish "Only idiots/thugs can't challenge Nazism intellectually." to agreeing that violence can be used in limited circumstances.

My argument hasn't changed at all. Yes, you are an idiot if you don't know how to call out Nazism without using your fists. No, violence should never be used to silence speech. I don't know how you think I backtracked when agreeing with Tehrun:

Outside of self-defense, there is literally no reason to punch a Nazi/Klansman.

Seriously, you've been stroking yourself this entire discussion and it's annoying as hell. It isn't immaturity to call it out.

I'm accepting ownership of my arguments. Apologies if that comes across as snobbish or intimidating.

 

[bobjr]

Someone has never had to look at the minority perspective if you think some speech shouldn't be stopped before it leads to action.

 

[Baba Yaga]

He shows a repeated and consistent failure to address the claim that the preaching of Nazi ideology and demonstrations inevitably lead to violence and that the ideology is inherently violent. The closest he came was awhile back, by making an appeal to the Supreme court's decision, but how does he reconcile the fact that time and time again, they very clearly have seemed to have gotten it wrong? Considering all these (initially) non violent events that 99% of the time become violent in some way, shape, or form?

 

[bobjr]

I mean Nazism was on the rise in a lot of places pre-WW2. I don't know as much with other countries, but a lot of the people in favor of it tried their best to scrub a lot of it from the history books.

 

[chess-z]

preemptive self defence

There are plenty of reasons to punch a nazi. Discouraging them from spouting their bigotry, for example.

 

[windwakemeup]

I don't get that reference. Does that mean JonTron has no shame or humility? I'm really saddened that the GameGrumps haven't called him out on being a racist pos.

It does mean that, it's a reference to the "It's more likely than you think" meme which I won't link here but can be google'd. JonTron isn't part of Game Grumps anymore so that might be why, though I wonder why several people in Normal Boots stay on when they've shown a willingness to call out Jontron before and have even stated they dislike him (mostly talking about peanutbuttergamer here).