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Antifa and Black Lives Matter vs. KKK and Neo Nazis:A battle of false equivalence

Discussion in 'Debate Forum' started by Gamzee Makara, Aug 20, 2017.

  1. The Admiral

    The Admiral solid state survivor

    Boy, now I remember why I decided not to follow up very much in this shit carnival. Really, at this point, I don't know why we need this thread open anymore.

    I didn't imply they were peaceful. Like, where the **** did you get that from?

    I mean, it's obvious, Nazis are evil. Blah blah I have skin in this game too, do you want me to tell you about the whole genderfluid/bisexual thing and how the original Nazis burned the original Institut fur Sexualwissenschaft in 1933. But also, your murderous streak is far too wide for anyone who wants to call themselves a human being. Do I need to go back and remind you what you said about John McCain? I mean, he is a scumbag (and admittedly, I rescinded my earlier grace because he pretty much decided to try and go for the gold medal in the 2017 Scumbag Olympics), but you crossed a line, and now you're crossing another one when you suggest we should actually kill, by torture (according to the stories, Vlad the Impaler, whom you name-check, invented some really intricate torture methods resulting in slow deaths) or crucifixion, Nazis. Due to the complexity involved with these, what you're suggesting we do is very systemic as opposed to being something that could be read as self-defense by most people (think about this: if you knew someone out there had a contract to kill you, and you find them and kill them first, how likely is that to be considered self-defense?).

    It is fully possible to stop Nazism and silence hate speech without resorting to surrendering your humanity. There is a strong difference between a giving someone a sucker punch and murdering them, especially if it's heavily premeditated. Let's consider not giving in to the temptation to be as shitty a human being as them, 'kay? If you seriously think the ends justify the means, you have probably never done anything seriously wrong in your entire life, and if you'd be able to say that after the fact and forever, you're probably a little bit on the sociopathic side. What you two are doing is probably the thing we need the least of right now.

    "He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - you know, that guy

    There's also this.

    You don't destroy an ideology by killing all the people who believe in it anyway. That methodology means you just end up waiting around for someone else to come back with it so you can keep playing your game of Ideological Whac-a-Mole.

    I'm guessing that Normal Boots is a relatively informal group, but I'm not an expert about its internals.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  2. Mordent99

    Mordent99 Banned

    From Trump. He keeps insisting again and again that the Nazis at that rally were "peacefully protesting with a permit" while the footage shows something very, very different,

    The "cherry syrup" comment, which implies that Trump is more "manly" and braver because he thinks war is better than negotiations is a common belief by his fat, stupid, gun-toting apologists, which never fails to drive me to rage.

    When their own sons - and daughters! - are brought back from overseas in body bags they might finally realize how stupid they sound.
     
  3. The Admiral

    The Admiral solid state survivor

    So basically, it wasn't actually relevant to anything I even said in the first place?

    In which case, why are you posting it in a manner that suggests a connection?
     
  4. Mordent99

    Mordent99 Banned

    My post that you quoted was not directed at you. It is directed at everyone and anyone who tries to claim that Antifa and BLM are just as bad as the neo-Nazis who were chanting "Blood and Soil" who refuses to admit that said neo-Nazis were squarely and solely to blame for what happened in Charlottesville.

    Which includes Trump.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2017
  5. Scammel

    Scammel Well-Known Member

    The 'cherry syrup' comment is directly lifted from the first post of the thread. I'll have to plead ignorance if there's another context.

    One of the central cruxes of my argument for free speech is the protection of minorities:

     
  6. bobjr

    bobjr It's Fusion, I don't have to expalin it. Staff Member Moderator

    And instead we have people blaming minorities for trying to fight the status quo, which is starting to hurt them more and more both socially and economically. Antifa is polling right around MLK's level at his most active in terms of support, and a lot of that comes from misinterpretation for what he actually did, that he was just 100% talk and no action.

    The long game isn't about a specific government, but to instill it in human behavior.
     
  7. Scammel

    Scammel Well-Known Member

    'Action' is fine. Action is good. Action is attending counter-protests, demonstrating in public, writing to lawmakers, improving the visibility of issues and minorities; so on and so forth. It might even involve granting a platform to those with hateful views, to better dress them down.

    I'm pretty sure MLK never donned a balaclava and picked up a baseball bat, though.
     
  8. Mordent99

    Mordent99 Banned

    That's because he was a pacifist and a minister, who knew that Jesus would not approve of violence. Something Trump and his apologists clearly believe works better than negotiations.
     
  9. bobjr

    bobjr It's Fusion, I don't have to expalin it. Staff Member Moderator

    So all the things Leftists are already doing? This push to the left from the Dems didn't come out of nowhere, and surely not from the rich donors. From what I see the balaclava/batball bat people are a very small minority, especially as the movement grows more and more.
     
  10. Scammel

    Scammel Well-Known Member

    Yes. They are good, and they should be kept up. The example you provided of the conduct of MLK is clear evidence that this stuff works.

    I've never said anything otherwise.
     
  11. bobjr

    bobjr It's Fusion, I don't have to expalin it. Staff Member Moderator

    There's always going to be someone who uses groups like this for a boost to do what they want, it's a matter of if that's productive to the group or not. But as I've said the police have been given more and more power, so a lot of "Look at what this leftist group did" comes off as "Really?" Just look at the pictures people take of reporters and police taking pictures of one knocked over trash can to condemn Antifa while White Supremacists get a police escort.
     
  12. chess-z

    chess-z campy vampire

    All violence isn't equal. This is especially true of the magnitude of the violent acts committed by far right groups vs far left groups. In ethics, they certainly aren't comparable, but also not in scale.
     
  13. GhostAnime

    GhostAnime Searching for her...

    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  14. Scammel

    Scammel Well-Known Member

    Your articles say the exact opposite of what you think they do. Both articles absolutely reaffirm their commitment to non-violence. The second extensively addresses the power of non-violence.

    The first article barely omits it, but here's MLK on riots:

     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
  15. bobjr

    bobjr It's Fusion, I don't have to expalin it. Staff Member Moderator

    There's a big difference between rioting and protesting, but for some people they don't see the line.
     
  16. chess-z

    chess-z campy vampire

    People are fine with protesting as long as they aren't required to pay attention to the protesting. Anything that draws attention is labeled as a riot.
     
  17. GhostAnime

    GhostAnime Searching for her...

    "A riot is the language of the unheard."
     
  18. bobjr

    bobjr It's Fusion, I don't have to expalin it. Staff Member Moderator

  19. Sadib

    Sadib Time Lord Victorious

  20. Mordent99

    Mordent99 Banned

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