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Anyone else think it'd be a bit rubbish if

Discussion in 'Animé Spoilers' started by TheNewGuy, Feb 11, 2010.

  1. TheNewGuy

    TheNewGuy Well-Known Member

    Ash beats Paul using his current strategies?

    What I mean is, Paul has been presented for the most part like the "bad guy" with his constant rudeness and mistreatment of Pokemon like Chimchar. There's no doubt he's the antagonist and that's fine. However, Paul's strategies are, by the anime's standards, excellent. The way he uses Electabuzz's protect, set-up moves, and switches; to be honest, he's one of the few anime characters who could do decently in the IRL competitive metagame!

    This is bad, though, because of the way Paul has been presented. It's almost as if the show is saying that his strategies are bad, and that his craftiness shouldn't be as rewarding as it is. I don't like the idea that Ash will beat Paul without there being a mutual learning between the two of them, ie, Paul maybe treats his mons a little better and Ash becomes a smarter trainer because of battling a calibre of opponent that he has rarely, if ever, faced.
    You could certainly make the argument that the only bigger test for him was Brandon (who has also easily beaten Paul); I'd take Paul over any of the people Ash lost to in the leagues, though Paul might struggle with Drake from the Orange league.

    Right now (though he's been getting a little better as of late), Ash is decisively outclassed tactically by Paul. I think the best course of action for the writers would be for Ash to improve and tactically surprise Paul. He's done it before, but those have been fortunate, context-sensitive situations (like heating the rocks to beat Gary). Paul's strats are reliable and work in most any situation.

    What I'm trying to say, and I'm rambling a bit, is that it'd be hugely disappointing if Ash, rather than learning from Paul's superior intelligence, tanked through him in his usual plucky, tactless way.

    The best indicator of this would be to see if Ash's Grotle or Torterra can beat Honchkrow. If Ash brings Groterra in on Honchkrow because of the "rivalry" and wins, that just rewards blind faith and idiocy. If Ash is smart enough to at least switch to one of his other options (Pikachu or, with Ice Punch, Buizel) and wins then, we'll have seen development.

    Of course that happening is not proof either way but it's an indication, like I said. Ash could switch Grotle out and still win with blind offense, which would be total DEM and a very, very disappointing end to by far the best rivalry in the show's history.
     
  2. d4rk_tailed

    d4rk_tailed Doritoes,Leaf Storm!

    Well.......apart from that, Paul relied a lot on luck, plus writer-given power in the 6-on-6 didnt he? For example, I dont think he even thought about Ursaring's guts until Pikachu did him bad, and then BOOM. Then, in terms of writer's luck, Monferno was all over Electabuzz, yet still got beat; besides, its not about tactics, its about Pokemon. See how Staraptor was able to take down Weavile, because its a small Pokemon. Could have been a far more evenly matched battle if Paul had had Magmar, Elekid. etc

    What Im trying to say is this, that full battle could never be a proper gauge of how good either trainer was, as Im sure that the writers are going to pit the two together at the league, they couldnt have Ash win could they? Instead, they had Pokemon like Torterra and Magmortar tank up, show off some skillz, and then set it up nicely at the end, with some clear rivalries that theyre probably going to bring back at the league (IF they battle). A better gauge is the one they had right at the beginning of Sinnoh at Rowans; there, although both trainers had no reasonable Pokemon bar Pika and Elekid (maybe Chimchar), the writers didnt know which way they were going to point the ship, how many more times Ash and Paul would meet before their final full battle, so............eh whatever, hope you get my picture anyway ;)
     
  3. TheNewGuy

    TheNewGuy Well-Known Member

    Paul knew about Guts. He was all "finally" when it kicked in and Reggie speculated that Paul had been waiting for it all along. Monferno lost to Electabuzz because Paul played it smart and his Electabuzz is a strong Pokemon defensively. Monferno looked very strong but was still weak from his earlier battling and it told.

    That's something else I want to see from Ash if they meet at the league (I'm sure they will); second guess that bloody Light Screen tactic. Wait for the Pokemon to attack and counter them, or have Infernape, Buizel, Gible or even, god forbid, Pikachu learn Brick Break to break the screen.

    I do know what you mean; it's all about what the writers want to do in the future. But that's not my point: presuming Ash does beat Paul, I don't want it to be a case of Ash not learning anything from Paul's obviously superior battle intelligence. That would be lame.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2010
  4. V Faction

    V Faction www.faction.com

    There's only one strategy that Ash needs to win:

    Torterrapult

    [img139]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v370/VFaction/torterrapult-1.gif[/img139]
     
  5. S.Suikun

    S.Suikun Thank you, SPPf! :)

    I knew Piplup plushies were full of infants' blood as soon as I first laid eyes on them. Curse me for not alerting the presses sooner.

    My guess is that it's gonna come down to an ability war, since the writers only seem to care about abilities when Paul's around.
     
  6. Almighty Zard

    Almighty Zard He has returned.

    If this was before we knew Ash was going to get Torterra and Infernape, and possibly use some of his reserve pokemon in the league i'd be inclined to think that yes Paul has Ash's number, but now i'm not so sure, Pikachu and Gible are the only two pokemon on Ash's team that seem to show signs of being outclassed by Paul's pokemon currently.

    Staraptor and Infernape so far are the only two pokemon Ash has that have shown they can battle paul's pokemon, especially after how Infernape evolved, if it's flame wheel has become that powerful I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of it.

    Buizel while not getting a win in the full battle weakened and probably could've knocked Magmortar out and stood it's ground against grizzly del psycho, given that it now has Ice Punch and could potentially self ice aqua missile itself, it's become better equipped to fight, and I wouldn't be suprised if during thier league battle it rains so Buizel's ability kicks in:p.

    Then there's Grotle/soon to be Torterra...If it keeps the whole "ingest energy ball for extra power" thing going, then yes it probably could beat Honchkrow legitimently.

    Then there's the reserve factor, given the new opening Ash could be using some of his old pokemon which Paul doesn't know about, cause that's a key factor about the full six battle people forget, Paul built his team for that battle based on how he had seen Ash's sinnoh pokemon so he knew how they would act and battle, but with all the new changes Ash is getting, the tide could shift back to an even fight.
     
  7. J-boogie200

    J-boogie200 Well-Known Member

    I'd say it'll be all on love, for real.

    Ash screaming to his Pokemon "You can do this, I have faith in you" then pulling out a win.

    I loved Morisson, but don't wanna see another Ash vs Morisson, though with his rivals I doubt that will even happen.

    Nando I see making things difficult with contest moves, but Ash will prevail.

    Nando is such a wildcard in this whole saga.
     
  8. Dr. MECha

    Dr. MECha Prof. of Pokeology

    This is what bothers me about the league, it's mostly about Ash's stategies as opposed to brute force. No matter how powerful his monsters become, he'll always lose to trainers that focus more on strategy than him.
     
  9. I agree. If Ash beats Paul by using the exact same tactics he lost with the past.....20392 times, then I don't see how they'd expect anyone to believe it.

    Like I said before in another thread, how do you expect people to believe a character is growing by him ignoring his defeats and not changing up his game? It doesn't work that way, in any media.
     
  10. TheNewGuy

    TheNewGuy Well-Known Member

    Grotle had problems with its last evolution and this could easily happen again so that's not set in stone - and we don't know when he'll evolve anyway, even if it is likely to be before the battle with Paul. I would be extremely surprised and disappointed if it beat Honchkrow. They made a big deal out of it being Ash's mistake to keep Grotle in for sentimental reasons; Ash switching Groterra out will be a sign that he's improved and knows what he's doing. Ash keeping Groterra in and winning shows that the writers have no respect for Paul's obvious intelligence and tactical superiority - that they just showed us that as a device to make him appear more crafty. I think you're forgetting how handily Honchkrow has beaten Grotle (twice), and Honchkrow's toughness overall. Staraptor evolved against it and hit it with all sorts of moves and Staraptor still didn't knock it out, only winning Pokeringer thanks to Staraptor's clutch brilliance. I don't think Grotle's evolution should bridge that gap.

    Buizel lost to Magmortar despite a type advantage: that's not good whatever way you slice it, surely? I mean, yeah, it did some decent damage but you expect that. He didn't win and Magmortar looked to me like it could go a few more rounds.

    The numbers speak for themselves here; Infernape might be able to do some decent damage to Paul and the same goes for Staraptor but that's not enough. Paul will be training as well, remember, and while Ash might improve more than him, I wouldn't have thought that was enough to bridge the gap with Ash's current battling tactics. So he needs to learn from Paul and adapt a little. Using his reserves in the league - and particularly against Paul - would be a good indicator of tactical nous, but I'm not sure they'll do that. Fighting Paul has been a team thing from the start, which is also why I think we'll see Gliscor return to face his old master, Paul's Gliscor.
     
  11. streetlightdsb

    streetlightdsb Uni hiatus

    Not really. Ash would win because he's nurtured his team with positive reinforcement and support, a long term training strategy as opposed to Pauls "get results fast" strategy, and as a result they've grown in terms of evolution, strength and maturity. The in battle strategies Ash has (counter-shield etc) work, it's just there was not quite enough power there in the full battle.

    To be perfectly honest, the full battle was a bit ridiculous at times. Monferno lost to Electabuzz because of luck and because the writers said so. Did you not see it? He was dominating all the way through. Then he lost. :/ Electabuzz got paralysis on Monferno as well. Imo Monferno should have beaten Electabuzz and then lost to someone else relatively easily but that's neither here nor there.

    And no, Buizel didn't lose to Magmortar. Paul withdrew it. Most likely because he's a smart trainer and knew he would probably lose if he carried on, so he sent out Ursaring to clear up.

    Anyway, I'll be fine with the win when it happens, especially if Ash uses one of those "last minute pull it out of his arse" strategies :)
     
  12. Umbilical Noose

    Umbilical Noose Bonzo Nut

    If Ash uses reserves in the battle against Paul then how can it make any difference. Those Pokemon shown in the opening are weakling compared to Sinnoh Pokemon except for Snorlax and Corphish. If Ash uses Snorlax instead of Gible in his battle with Paul then the battle would be much more better to see than seeing a immature Pokemon taking down Paul's(best rival ever) Pokemon. Who wouldn't like to see Ursaring vs Snorlax. Gible has nothing to prove to Paul so far so it is not needed in the battle but if Gliscor is to return then we can pend Snorlax for some other battles like Barry's Snorlax vs Ash's Snorlax.
    As for ability part, Ash says he can without using Pokemon abilities. He should not forget that abilities are part of battle too. Its like Paul is a competitive battler and ash is a nOOb.
     
  13. Champion Jared 14

    Champion Jared 14 Well-Known Member

    No, Ash needs to develop a strategy that doesn't revolve around only the speed of his pokemon and their attacks, as well as counter-shield. He'll have to do more at the league, because I'm sure really skilled trainers will know how to counter that once taken by surprise by it once. Ash's Torterra will only be able to take on so much damage, Ash needs to empasize more of a defensive approach to support his pokemon in battle.
     
  14. V Faction

    V Faction www.faction.com

    Yep, he's using his Sinnoh team, whether it's 'tactically sound' or not.

    Gliscor's return is still up in the air (heh, up in the air... nevermind)

    Paul has seen Ash's tactics, but Ash has also seen Paul's tactics. So don't worry, they'll bring more to the table than what you might be expecting. I guarantee it.

    Ash goes by his own pace, doing his own thing. So far, the build towards getting Ash's Pokemon prepared has steadily been going on so that they are NOT the same bunch o' dudes who lost in the 6 vs. 6. Let's take a took:

    Pikachu
    Has his usual line-up of Volt Tackle, Iron Tail, Thunderbolt, and Quick Attack at his disposal. Knows how to effectively use the Counter-Shield, a tactic which Paul has seen but was not able to counter himself (ala Fantina). Pikachu is still probably the least improved Pokemon in Ash's team, but makes up for it with versatility and ingenuity on the battlefield. And maybe a little extra power doesn't hurt either. How he affects the battle flow is really anyone's guess. His trait, Static, can be helpful or harmful, and comes in play sporadically. Most agree that Static activating Guts last time was pure foul play compared to fights all 3,000 other fights.

    Buizel
    Comes equiped with Aqua Jet, Water Gun, Sonic Boom, Water Pulse, and the newly learned Ice Punch. Long-range attacks, physical attacks, contact moves -- very similar to Pikachu. The difference is that Buizel just gained a large advantage with Ice Punch. This will effectively improve his ability to conjure up his Ice Aqua Jet, a strategy which Paul has not experienced yet. Plus, it's good type coverage. Buizel also knows how to utilize the Counter-shield effectively. His trait, Swift Swim, is in no way disadvantageous to Buizel. But it IS nice DEM material and without a regularly occuring resource of rain, the trait is largely ignored unless due to outside influence.

    Staraptor
    Can utilize Wing Attack, Quick Attack, Whirlwind, Aerial Ace, and the unique Brave Bird and Close Combat. Staraptor is Ash's most diverse Flying-type yet. It's also an offensive powerhouse and was his first 3-stage Pokie in Sinnoh. Most agree that Staraptor did very well in the Paul fight. Strategy-wise, Staraptor is a physical brawler, which is unqiue for a bird Pokemon. It does not know any 'specialized tactic' like the other Pokemon do, but then again, it may not need it. The best thing they could do is not teach it some fancy-shmancy ballet dance, but instead opt for letting it learn another powerhouse move. Its trait, Intimidate, has not been seen yet in the anime to date. And it's doubtful we will ever see it. At best, it's coming into play without us noticing (explaining how Staraptor lasts so long against Super-Effective moves) and at worst it is being ignored.

    Infernape
    Infernape carries great offense with Mach Punch, Flamethrower, and Flame Wheel, and great defense with Dig. It is expected to be one of Ash's greatest threats to Paul because of its history and animosity. The latest episodes show he is no slouch when it comes to strength. Physically, he's superior to most. Agility is also a strong factor. Infernape also knows how to fight using the Counter-Shield method, a tactic he's certain to have been well acquainted with. On top of being Ash's first fully evolved Fire Pokemon since Charizard, there's also the matter of his trait, Blaze, which holds a greater deal of signifcance over most other traits. Getting enveloped in its flames grants Infernape great power with a cost: it usually sends him on a rampage. With his evolution into Infernape, it is assumed (or at least hoped) that the maturity that comes with evolution will have balanced out his control, turning Blaze into an asset instead of a liability.

    Torterra
    We're still on the outskirts of Grotle's evoluton (I like that term by the way, "Groterra"), but I'm inclined to refer to him as Torterra as we know it is confirmed. Coming at us with Razor Leaf, Energy Ball, Synthesis, Rock Climb, and maybe a long-forgotten Tackle and Bite, Torterra is Ash's true forray into defensive Pokemon (after Torkoal and Snorlax's auto-tank abilities). The tactic is one Torterra is accustomed to by now but still can't quite fully embrace. I see the evolution into Torterra as the final step to mastering his defensive qualities totally. There's also the matter of the still relatively new tactic of eating Energy Ball for a boost of power, a tactic that Paul has not seen yet. This, on top of evolving, could be the secret weapon that Ash will unleash upon Paul (it worked pretty well for Palmer). His trait, Overgrow, while sharing the same qualities with Infernape's Blaze, does not come into play. However, if he were to be under the effects of Overgrow (which boosts the power of all Grass-type attacks) and ingested an Energy Ball, I have no doubt the results would double in power.

    Gible
    Small, fresh little Gible. Dig, Rock Smash, Draco Meteor, and Dragon Pulse. Gible has the advantage when facing Paul in that he's never seen this Pokemon in Ash's line-up. It's another edge, aside from evolving Pokemon and giving them new attacks, given to Ash when they face-off. The downside is Gible still needs to work on its attacks. Draco Meteor goes off course, Dragon Pulse tires him out, and Gible can get a little ornery during battle. On the plus, he's an expert Digger. And then there's that silly little beingadragontypeknowingdracometeorandbeingapseudolegendary thing which I'm sure the anime won't get into too much. His trait, Sand Veil, has not come into play yet.

    Gliscor
    This is a tentative spot. Whether you're all for Gliscor's return or you expect him to take a permanent vacation, you still have to account for his potential. It is currently training with the Air Master, and should it come back for the league most people believe the strength it received while training would give it a competitive edge. Similar to Charizard. Now, it doesn't matter if you think this is cheap or not, that's the plain truth. It knows X-Scissor, Sand-Attack, Fire Fang, Steel Wing, and Giga Impact. A nice range of moves. We this time, we do not know what Gliscor's trait could be.

    So there you are. Ash's Pokemon ARE getting some kind of structure to help them fight the big fight. Maybe it's not what you're expecting, but hey, that's how Ash operates. He makes his own tactics outside of the rules. Losing fights are a learning experience and the way Ash adjusts is to come up with things no one expects.

    He's almost like a coordinator -- thinking outside the box -- which I've alluded to in the past. I prefer it this way 10x over simply giving him moves which are meant to exclusively defeat Paul (like giving him Brick Break for Light Screen [just break through it with a physical attack]. Or giving him Feint to counter Protect [find ways to work around the defense]).

    One of the most enjoyable things about Paul's fights is his magical ability to call upon Pokemon Traits during battles. While they mostly ignore them during your garden variety matches, with Paul they like to go for gusto. So perhaps the Pokemon of Ash's that we haven't seen with their traits will get to use them.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2010
  15. talala

    talala Well-Known Member

    he might also come with ice aqua jet punch if the writers get creative enough with ash...
    think you could make an animation of that? xD
     
  16. Lunanight

    Lunanight Well-Known Member

    the reason ash loses is that paul is I that ash's pokemon are physically weak(not including staraptor, infernape, torterra)

    pikachu-low defence/sp.def
    gible-same as pikachu
    buizel-same

    by physically weak, i mean if this was the games ashs pokemon will be 1HKO'ed almost all the time.

    also, I am aware the games and anime are not the same but so far ash has not beat paul.

    pauls pokemon are all fully evolved, not including electabuzz(it will most likely happen at the leaque)

    ash may even use his reserves as paul knows nothing about them.
     
  17. Spacialrend

    Spacialrend Gallade owns

    Pika's power always alternates, one moment he takes down something like say, a Metagross, next he wipes out to Elekid, a "Baby Pokemon", Buizel kinda thinks he's awesome or something, like a big shot, most the time Ash starts with him in battles, which is his downfall cause now Ash's methods are predictable, Paul is arguably very observent to which was he should cream Ash's team, thing such as rotating his team, something that Ash only ever bothers to do in the League, such as calling for Charizard, I think he really needs to use Pokemon that are more easily available to swap his current team with, like Sceptile, Donphan and Snorlax. I mean, would you really miss Buizel or something or one measly episode or two?
     
  18. GOONER1991

    GOONER1991 Pokemon Master...

    I agree with you to a certain degree, but I don't think that Paul's strategies have been presented as bad, because they are constantly shown as superior to Ash's. I think that it's more the way that he treats and trains his Pokemon that is presented negatively. I think that it would be best if they both learn from the other, and become better trainers because of it.

    It depends on the way that Grotle beats Honchkrow... if Ash does some real training, and comes up with a strategy specificly to defeat Honchkrow, I think that this will show genuine improvement on Ash's part. While sticking with his team, will teach Paul that having a connection with your Pokemon is stronger than just training alone.
     
  19. Spacialrend

    Spacialrend Gallade owns

    We all know that Monferno would wipe Ursaring with one jab if or when he evolves, as seen in the one where he as a Chimchar activates Blaze and beats the **** out of him with Flame wheel (Chim-charred) so I think the little guy will have no problem taking him down once he masters his special ability, I think he's the only one other than probably Pika to sand a chance to Paul, even though Buizel may be strong one day, he would get stomped on so to put it by Paul's pokemons, Grotle might need to learn some awesome rock moves or something, though I think that won't happen, I'd hope for him to learn Stone Edge or Rock Slide, it just fits his defensive properties, seeing as he lost his speed
     

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