Are Ash's "Weak" Pokemon Really At Fault?

[thunderblade12]

I was thinking, mostly because of the Infernape thread, is it really fair to say that a lot of Ash's pokemon are weak? Some of the pokemon that are considered Ash's "greats" have failed miserably at one point or another.

Squirtle went from getting one-hit KOed by a Fire Spin and having no notable victories to speak of to being able to withstand Thunder.

Cyndaquil won many-a gym battle in Johto but lost to pokemon it had type advantages against; Venusaur and Magneton. Venusaur being under the control of Team Rocket

Charizard vs Dusclops was undeniably close. And sorry, but I'm having trouble fathoming that a Dusclops owned by a Frontier Brain would be just as strong/stronger than an Articuno belonging to another Frontier Brain. I know Brandon is supposed to be the strongest of the Kanto Frontier Brains, but I seriously doubt there's THAT much of a gap between the ranks of the Frontier Brains.

Chimchar did worse than Buizel against Lucario despite having a type advantage with Buizel not having one. Again, Infernape was one-shotted by Flint while it took multiple hits from Bertha to take down an apparently "weak" Torterra down and took a massive seven hits for Flint to take down Pikachu. Why wasn't Pikachu that far ahead of Infernape in the battles against Paul and Volkner?

Grovyl had a losing streak for a while. It lost to a Luvdisc of all things. Considered one of the weakest pokemon overall in terms of the games and it had an advantage over it.

Buizel also had a steady losing streak but has done plenty to prove itself a powerful pokemon.

Gliscor went from one of Ash's strongest Sinnoh pokemon, to the weakest, to the strongest again. It's win-loss ratio is pretty even with what little battles it had, but losing to Snover after using Fire Fang on it made it look terribly weak. Prior to that, however, it defeated a Gym Leader's signature pokemon without even having a type advantage over it. It also defeated Paul's "trump card" who had only taken one uneffective hit from Torterra earlier.

Noctowl was always thought of as Ash's weakest bird due to lack of use. However, it did defeat two of Morty's pokemon and it seemed on equal grounds with the other two birds at the Sinnoh League. This is an example of failed strategy on Ash's part. Why use Noctowl against Steelix? It took away it's only chance for a League victory and made it look really bad.

Tailow also lost to pokemon it had an advantage against, Machop and Roselia. The latter wasn't even trained for Gym battles.

My point? Well how do we know the pokemon we all consider "weak" right now just haven't been given the right opportunity yet? It does always seem to be the fault of Ash's strategy (or lack of one in some occasions) that cause these pokemon's downfall.

Kingler was the only pokemon Ash had that swept a legitamately good trainer. Hey, he earned eight badges and was the favorite to win the Kanto League at least. It also did well in the Whirl Cup. So what if it lost to Psyduck? Confusion to it was what Blaze was to Chimchar. Due to lack of use for the most part it never gets any credit as the powerhouse that it is. Everyone would rather assume that Mandi was weak for some reason.

Muk was only used twice. And in it's second battle, it was Ash's strategy that prevented it from getting any wins against Gary. Gary was simply prepared. He used Muk's gooey body to his advantage. Who knows, maybe Muk is stronger than Snorlax?

Totodile being used against Harrison is another example of Ash'sa failings. He wasn't even controlling Totodile when it defeated Sneasle. It did it in it's own way. And why didn't Ash withdraw Totodile while Hypno was Hypnotizing it? When you really think about it, Cyndaquil, Totodile, and Pikachu all contributed to defeating Miltank. Maybe not seem impressive, but for this one battle Rollout was actually handled the way it was supposed to be. It was the whole reason Whitney was the hardest GSC Gym Leader to defeat in the games.

Donphan spams Rollout most of the time. And not the good Rollout like Whitney's Miltank; the lame one that's essentially just a Rolling Tackle. What kind of strategy is using the same move over and over? Against Conway he didn't use anything BUT Rollout. Again, we can contribute this loss to Ash's strategy not the pokemon in question's strength.

Torkoal kept using Overheat which weakened it's other moves... I believe this could be a contributing factor to it's less than reputable list of victories. Ash wasn't exactly shy about using the move...

Torterra is the pokemon I first noticed this with. It seems like any time Ash tried to use Rock Climb or Synthesis it backfired. Ash just couldn't time it correctly. They even said so in Ash and Paul's first battle and he never really worked on it since (and it shows.) What's really crazy is that Ash got advice straight from a long-time, successful Torterra owner and ignored it. Now I have no thought in my mind that Torterra would still be able to defeat Roark's Rampardos (with the right strategy...ASH) I have a feeling Ash would try to go in head on with Rock Climb and get Torterra dowsed with a Flamethrower head on. He blatantly ignored Paul's advice and did the complete opposite and it turned out horrible. Who knows, maybe if Paul used Torterra in a battle his own way it would have been stronger than his own.




So why contribute it all to the strength of a pokemon? We all know Turtwig was strong enough to take down a Gym Leader's signature pokemon, for example. Torterra didn't get weaker upon evolving, it got stronger. It's that Ash can't use Torterra effectively, not that Torterra is too weak to defeat these pokemon. This is just one example of many.

 

[ChaosMage]

You make a lot of good points, but unforunately the answer for all of Ash's losses is that the writers require him to lose and they need to find a way to do it. The battle against Paul was an infamous example- three pokemon out of six being defeated by Infernape was just egregious in my opinion, especially when the match was Torterra, Buizel and Staraptor's swan song. Same thing goes for his match against Gary where Tauros, Muk and Bayleef were destroyed with ease in order to put Ash at a massive disadvantage so that Charizard could save the day. Hell, one you haven't mentioned is Bulbasaur being beaten in about thirty seconds by Drake's Electabuzz while everyone else on the team got an impressive victory. It's just one case after another of "just not your episode".

 

[Paul Ketchum]

I agree, it's definitely Ash's fault that some of his pokemon are perceived as weak due to his lack of skill with some of them.

Torterra needs redemption.

 

[DarkWobbuffet]

I can agree with that. A major reason he loses many of his battles is due to sheer ignorance and forgetfulness, not the power of his Pokemon. Ash is just too young and inexperienced to be able to match up to the big boys, and he only adapts clever ideas and tricks after being in battles for an extended time.

His battle with Gary's Blastoise for instance was very one-sided against Charizard before Ash figured the brilliant strategy to heat up the field. In Charizard's battle with Dusclops, he forgot that moves like Seismic Toss don't affect ghost types despite having his butt handed to him a few other times by ghost types because of this.

I also recall a battle in Kanto Battle Frontier where Corphish got royally thrashed by a Vaporeon because it was using the battle field to it's advantage, and Ash acts like it was a tactic he's never heard of, despite not only has he seen the trick be used multiple times, but he himself has used the battle field to his advantage himself!

A lot of his loses also seem to be ones where the opponent dodges and/or resists everything his Pokemon throw at it and OHKOs Ash's team so fast he can't devise counter-strategies, usually ones like Elite Four battles or that pathetic loss to Kenny's Empoleon.

I suppose that's really a huge flaw the writers did with Ash's character, it takes him too long to put together plans and strategies. Some could say this is just a character trait, but it's a really bad trait to give to a main character in a series like this.

 

[CyberCubed]

Different writers write different episodes, and sometimes they aren't aware of what they did.

I very much doubt the writers knew Torterra never won a major battle in its last stage, they probably didn't realize it.

 

[Sayho1234]

I agree with the OP! The OP FTW!

 

[Lorde]

I don't think I'd blame Ash for the way some of his Pokemon are protrayed in the anime though since, you know, he's not real. The writers are at fault most of the time since they don't seem to want a consistent story; just a story that'll make them tons of money by promoting the videogames. Most of Ash's Pokemon could do so much better if this story had any decent momentum, which unfortunately it doesn't have. I think it always comes down to how the anime's sagas are written.

 

[Lee-san]

I never really understood these discussions about which Pokemon is Ash's strongest..the Pokemon are as strong as the writers want them to be, they have no tangible level or anything of the sort.

 

[Graham Aker]

A lot of his loses also seem to be ones where the opponent dodges and/or resists everything his Pokemon throw at it and OHKOs Ash's team so fast he can't devise counter-strategies, usually ones like Elite Four battles or that pathetic loss to Kenny's Empoleon.
.

The battle against Empoleon was biased as hell anyway. Buizel lost because he was "trying Flints battling style". It was just a way for the writers to give Kenny a last min. win for shipping purposes. If Ash would have been any kind of serious he would have used Pikachu just like he did against Barry twice before. Buizel later go one shotted, by Drapion..while Gliscor sustained several hits, and still won.

Besides as 4th Kira said, the writers are at fault really despite what the anime conveys sometimes. They just can't handle each Pokemon equallly which is why some are clearly stronger than others. They want to drag **** out painfully slow, so they make Ash improve, then regress, then improve, then regress. It's a stupid pattern really, but they want cash.

 

[Sayho1234]

I never really understood these discussions about which Pokemon is Ash's strongest..the Pokemon are as strong as the writers want them to be, they have no tangible level or anything of the sort.

Quoted for truth!

It's really just the fandumb anyway who starts those discussions.

 

[CyberCubed]

Well I suppose its better than topics about Misty's next appearance, at any rate. We've had enough of those over the last 8 years.

 

[Sayho1234]

Well I suppose its better than topics about Misty's next appearance, at any rate. We've had enough of those over the last 8 years.

The only person around here who even starts those discussions are you .

 

[Graham Aker]

I never really understood these discussions about which Pokemon is Ash's strongest..the Pokemon are as strong as the writers want them to be, they have no tangible level or anything of the sort.

Infernape, Sceptile, or Snorlax being stonger than something Totodile is fairliy obvious. No, not all his Pokemon are equal. Pikachu is considered his strongest at the end of each region anyway.

 

[Joe.]

Great post but:

Donphan spams Rollout most of the time. And not the good Rollout like Whitney's Miltank; the lame one that's essentially just a Rolling Tackle. What kind of strategy is using the same move over and over? Against Conway he didn't use anything BUT Rollout. Again, we can contribute this loss to Ash's strategy not the pokemon in question's strength.

While I wish Donphan would use more attacks Ash has him spam Rollout because of the "getting stronger every time" feature, or Ash just sucks w/e.

 

[Graham Aker]

While I wish Donphan would use more attacks Ash has him spam Rollout because of the "getting stronger every time" feature, or Ash just sucks w/e.

Or the writers just don't give a damn about Donphan, and didn't bother to give him any new moves like some of the other Pokemon he used in the League.

 

[BlueMage]

The main problem I see with Ash is that he tends to use the same moves over and over with the Pokemon in his team that are considered weak. This is especially notable with Torterra, who pretty much only ever used Rock Climb and Leaf Storm. The former is very situational and requires good timing, the latter weakens Torterra's Sp. Attack (although I'm unsure if this applies in the anime). And, despite Torterra's numerous losses, Ash never really considered using different moves.

 

[Caseydia]

Why does CyberCubed even care now of how weak Ash's Pokemon was? He's catching different Pokemon. Plus, I thought that everyone had made their point clear already in the last few months by bashing Ash's Sinnoh and Johto Pokemon constantly. We don't need to do it anymore.

 

[Graham Aker]

The main problem I see with Ash is that he tends to use the same moves over and over with the Pokemon in his team that are considered weak. This is especially notable with Torterra, who pretty much only ever used Rock Climb and Leaf Storm. The former is very situational and requires good timing, the latter weakens Torterra's Sp. Attack (although I'm unsure if this applies in the anime). And, despite Torterra's numerous losses, Ash never really considered using different moves.

Really that's the writers fault. They just couldn't handle each Pokemon equally. It's easy to point fingers at Ash, but in the grand scheme of things it's the writers. They want to make some Pokemon stornger than others. Hence why you see Torkal for instance launching a flamethrower, and getting onshotted. Yet Sceptile get's hit by Ice Beam, and dream eater..then manages to hit Darkrai ; Two shotting it. Ash does the same thing. Call out attacks.

 

[KibaLG8]

Isn't this another thread that can easily be answered with: "Plot Power"?

 

[Sayho1234]

Isn't this another thread that can easily be answered with: "Plot Power"?

Lol

/thread