Are Gimmicks reflective of a pokemon's true power?

[Almighty Zard]

I've been wondering about this lately, with Pikachu being the prime target.

it's true Pikachu flat out nuked Tapu Koko in the exhibition match between Ash and Kakui, however it required a Z-move...and a rather powerful one at that to get the job done.

While I feel all gimmick's we've seen, it makes me wonder how strong is the pokemon without resorting to them? They've all felt like extensions of a pokemon's abilities (not their natural ones), still while using these gimmicks is always awesome to see, it makes me wonder can you really discern a pokemon's true power if someone has to rely on them all the time?

I mean Pikachu was able to drop Alain's Charizard to it's knees when it wasn't mega evolved, but yet when it went it did it, it became so powerful not even Ash-Greninja could stop it.

and there's a part of me wondering just how strong Leon's Charizard would actually be if he didn't use Gigantamaxing and relied on the max moves to get the job done, and of course Ash's Lucario is looking like it might be more powerful than Korrina's could hope to be, even with her having it's mega form.

So the question is simple, do gimmicks really "extend" a pokemon's abilities, or do you think that a pokemon should rely on it's natural skills for power.

 

[CMButch]

Personally, I like much better if Pokemon rely on his own power without gimmicks, like Pokemon has trained from A(low level) to D(high level) rather than Ash catching C or D level Pokemon and Pokemon being A and then using gimmick to become D level. But yes, gimmicks do create Pokemon more powerful than their Base state. Sometimes less powerful( like Mega Lucario from Korinna, Lillie's Z move) sometimes way more powerful( 10MV, Gigamantax Pikachu, Ash-Greninja, Mega Charizard X).

 

[Mew29240]

I'd say they do because at the end of the day, those gimmicks are just tools at a Pokemon's disposal that they needed to master/train with to use effectively. We already saw how disastrous not having any mastery over them could have on Pokemon like with Korrina's Lucario when it first Mega Evolved. In mastering a gimmick, the Pokemon becomes a more formidable opponent.

I'd liken mastering a gimmick to learning a new move or battling tactic, it's just that the gimmicks are a bit more in your face about it through their payoffs.

 

[Red and Blue]

Z moves, Mega Evolution, and Dynamaxing are just tools and nothing more. While a Pokémon or trainer can be strong without them at the same time using them isn't morally wrong as well.

 

[Epicocity]

I'd say it depends.

Something like Mega Evolution is an enhancement on strength, and given we've seen trainers use only one Pokemon of choice for it, we have to presume that's just their strength.

Z-Moves, however, are entirely arbitrary, and indeed in the Tapu Koko battle was only possible because Koko decided to "reload" the Z-Move. In any other battle, if Ash has another Pokemon use a Z-Move, then it doesn't matter for Pikachu. They're entirely too arbitrary to factor into strength in that respect.

 

[Leonhart]

Personally, I try not to take Z-Moves, Mega Evolutions, or any other contrived power boost into account when it comes to judging how strong a Pokemon is. Satoshi's Pokemon tend to have the most gimmicks in battles in terms of how often they're used to Satoshi's advantage, although one could argue that that's expected since Satoshi has the most battles out of all characters in the show [on-screen].

Still, I didn't like Pikachu versus Kapu-Kokeko primarily because Pikachu was using what was essentially a borrowed power to win against a Legendary instead of relying on his regular moves like he did against Regice in the Battle Frontier.

 

[Applecorp]

Eh it depends. I would never say that Swellow or Pikachu are great because they used Thunder Armor but I think things like Z-moves and other ingame gimmicks are up for debate. I can see both sides of the argument.

 

[Mew29240]

Personally, I try not to take Z-Moves, Mega Evolutions, or any other contrived power boost into account when it comes to judging how strong a Pokemon is. Satoshi's Pokemon tend to have the most gimmicks in battles in terms of how often they're used to Satoshi's advantage, although one could argue that that's expected since Satoshi has the most battles out of all characters in the show [on-screen].

Still, I didn't like Pikachu versus Kapu-Kokeko primarily because Pikachu was using what was essentially a borrowed power to win against a Legendary instead of relying on his regular moves like he did against Regice in the Battle Frontier.

Do you take issue with the fact that Pikachu won using a Z-move in the first place or is it about the Tapus giving Ash and Kukui a refill on their Z-Rings?

 

[Leonhart]

Do you take issue with the fact that Pikachu won using a Z-move in the first place or is it about the Tapus giving Ash and Kukui a refill on their Z-Rings?

I suppose it's a little bit of both, but mostly the fact that it took a Z-Move for Pikachu to win in the first place. I blame Game Freak for this more than I blame the writers however, since Game Freak were the ones who came up with battle gimmicks such as Mega Evolution, Z-Moves, and Daimax. The writers are just trying to promote them since promoting the games is part of their jobs, but that doesn't really change how I feel about power scaling in the anime when it involves outside factors rather than a Pokemon's own innate power.

 

[Mew29240]

I suppose it's a little bit of both, but mostly the fact that it took a Z-Move for Pikachu to win in the first place. I blame Game Freak for this more than I blame the writers however, since Game Freak were the ones who came up with battle gimmicks such as Mega Evolution, Z-Moves, and Daimax. The writers are just trying to promote them since promoting the games is part of their jobs, but that doesn't really change how I feel about power scaling in the anime when it involves outside factors rather than a Pokemon's own innate power.

I get that. The gimmicks give a lot power to Pokemon for the amount of training/mastery required compared to learning a new move/tactic, especially with Z-Moves.

In regards to a Pokemon's innate power, how would you look at the Ash-Greninja transformation and Megas in general (given their whole shitck of being a Pokemon's hidden power unleashed through a strong bond (Battle Bond) or through stones (Mega Evolution))?

 

[Ace-Barn]

Personally, I like much better if Pokemon rely on his own power without gimmicks, like Pokemon has trained from A(low level) to D(high level) rather than Ash catching C or D level Pokemon and Pokemon being A and then using gimmick to become D level. But yes, gimmicks do create Pokemon more powerful than their Base state. Sometimes less powerful( like Mega Lucario from Korinna, Lillie's Z move) sometimes way more powerful( 10MV, Gigamantax Pikachu, Ash-Greninja, Mega Charizard X).

This is something I have wondered about. Outside of Leon, there don't seem to be many instances of trainers actively training their pokemon to use a move, especially not for a specific battle.

Are there any cases in the anime where a trainer trains their pokemons base stats to overcome a pokemon that is using abilities? For instance training a pokemons till it can move as fast as another pokemon that is using a speed boost ability instead of giving up a move.

 

[Ubermuk]

Power ups should never count. We all know that Pikachu wouldn't have won against Tapu Koko without that Z-move and I can name dozens of other fights in the show that all came down to the wire and were decided by Mega evolution or Z-moves. They're cheap plot devices and I hate them...

 

[Blastmaster]

Power-wise, they count. I actually think even Z-Moves are relatively consistent in how they scale to each Pokemon's power. Taking someone like Lillie for example, the main reason her Z-Move couldn't beat Gladion was because Gladion was far stronger anyway. Or even comparing Kiawe vs Brock to Ash vs Misty, Turtonator naturally scaled lower than Pikachu, so it makes sense that Ash's Z-Move was able to beat a Mega while Kiawe's couldn't.

Even with Pikachu vs Tapu Koko, keep in mind it was a special Z-Move overpowering another special Z-Move. I think Pikachu would've won even without the recharge, it's just that a huge Z-Move clash was way more appropriate for le epic finale.

The bigger problem for me is how overused they are narratively as a crutch. 90% of gimmicks in the anime are treated like the battle's entire worth. Anything a Mega does in base form, for instance, is always written like it's irrelevant when the battle is always gonna come down to how broken the Mega is. Like, it's annoyingly obvious against Alain that Ash-Greninja could've swept through everything other than Charizard, and vice versa. The rest of the battle doesn't even matter when they would've eventually been Mega fodder anyway.

Surprisingly SM was kinda better in that regard, at least occasionally, at showing that Z-Moves aren't the absolute be-all-end-all for everything and should be used strategically. Even something like Infernape's Blaze had natural drawbacks that forced more strategy instead of having this instant super mode that could've been used turn 1 and trivialized everything.

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

Power ups should never count. We all know that Pikachu wouldn't have won against Tapu Koko without that Z-move and I can name dozens of other fights in the show that all came down to the wire and were decided by Mega evolution or Z-moves. They're cheap plot devices and I hate them...

How? "We all know that Pikachu wouldn't have won against Tapu Koko without that Z move" That's complete bs. Even before the Z move clash Pikachu was completely owning Tapu Koko and battling quite well. The Z move was meant to be a finishing move, it isn't the crutch that allowed Pikachu to win. You need to rewatch that battle

 

[AznKei]

To me, gimmicks are meant to extend the mainstream games replayability, whether it's Z-moves, Mega Evolutions, Regional variants, etc. So having a Pokemon that had to use its natural abilities all the way until now gets very old. And the anime always made questionable outcomes, gimmicks or not.

 

[Red and Blue]

Unless Gen 9 and onward ditch gimmicks entirely every major trainer in the anime and Ash himself will still always rely on it. They got to promote it somehow for the games

 

[Ubermuk]

How? "We all know that Pikachu wouldn't have won against Tapu Koko without that Z move" That's complete bs. Even before the Z move clash Pikachu was completely owning Tapu Koko and battling quite well. The Z move was meant to be a finishing move, it isn't the crutch that allowed Pikachu to win. You need to rewatch that battle

He was fighting a legendary and one that he'd never come close to beating before. There was no rational way that the writing team could've justified Pikachu winning that fight without using the Z-move as the finishing move no matter how well Pikachu might've been doing before he used it...

 

[Red and Blue]

He was fighting a legendary and one that he'd never come close to beating before. There was no rational way that the writing team could've justified Pikachu winning that fight without using the Z-move as the finishing move no matter how well Pikachu might've been doing before he used it...

Pikachu never beat Tapu Koko in the previous battle because he was just starting out as he did at the start of every new region(except for possibly PM2019)

When Pikachu was at the Alolan League he was at his strongest. And we ready know Pikachu at his best is capable of defeating Legendary Pokemon

 

[SerGoldenhandtheJust]

He was fighting a legendary and one that he'd never come close to beating before. There was no rational way that the writing team could've justified Pikachu winning that fight without using the Z-move as the finishing move no matter how well Pikachu might've been doing before he used it...

If they could justify it beating REGICE and latios, it could beat Tapu Koko. Remember it only struggled against it in beginning of the series and was never actually knocked out by it. Again, REWATCH that battle, long before the Z move clash happened Pikachu was dominating Tapu Koko normally as well. The Z move clash was just a flashy way to culminate the SM arc that had been there since ep2 and I'm glad they went that route then a boring normal battle finish simply coz you headcanon Pikachu can't beat it without z move when evidence points to the contrary.

 

[CMButch]

He was fighting a legendary and one that he'd never come close to beating before. There was no rational way that the writing team could've justified Pikachu winning that fight without using the Z-move as the finishing move no matter how well Pikachu might've been doing before he used it...

Tapu Koko is nerfed in SM series. Remember when Lusamine(?) said that Tapus fought centuries against UBs(including Guzzlords),? Logically, Tapu Koko based on that would be like on Groudon level or more, yet Pikachu that was trained much much much less against weaker opponents would beat it.So,I agree that realistically Pikachu would not beat it but would beat conviniently nerfred TK that would be below Pikachu.