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Are people still thinking that Buizel doesn't need to evolve?

bui

Well-Known Member
The people who say Floatzel will just be a bigger version of Buizel are forgetting he will gain a new defense upon evolution
 

Concept

Führer of Fun
The people who say Floatzel will just be a bigger version of Buizel are forgetting he will gain a new defense upon evolution

Explain further please.
 

glowing_light010

•chℓoε•
i think buizel should evolve because he is overpowered by his teamates.
they all have evolved & pikachu is in its own league.
so yes, buizel SHOULD evolve.
 

Concept

Führer of Fun
You have obviously not watched DP83 and Ash's gym match against Wake and his Floatzel, where Floatzel used its expandable sac as a defense-mechanism.

I did already say I hadn't in my previous post. That's pretty cool. I still firmly believe the writers will have all the matches he participates in turn out the same way regardless of whether he evolves or not, they'll just have him do it in a floatsacless way. As I'm starting to get slightly tired of saying, their job is to interest the audience, not keep it realistic; it doesn't make a blind bit of difference to them whether a pokemon is evolved or not. The anime =/= the games.

Like I said before, I'm not saying it won't evolve; just that it'll not change the outcome of a single match ever, and that they should evolve a pokemon whose evolution doesn't just look like a slightly larger version of itself.
 

dman_dustin

Well-Known Member
The razor leaf example is fallacious. Such a thing would only be done for dramatic effect; to heighten the "are they going to escape" factor. It wouldn't have any bearing on later episodes, and if they were ordered not the evolve the pokemon, are you saying that it would therefore fail to escape the cage, and therefore be stolen? Of course it wouldn't, nothing ever gets successfully stolen; it would have succeeded just the same after a few attempts to heighten dramatic tension.
I doubt it since there would've been no reason for it to evolve if that was the case. If the writer intended for that particular grass Pokemon to evolve, then that why it evolved so it could escape from the cage. The only reason to assume the Pokemon were ordered not to evolve, is because that's what the writers wanted, for it not to evolve thus it it would've learned a new more powerful move like leaf storm. If the writers want the grass Pokemon to evolve in that manner, then it makes perfect sense why it's pre-evolved form couldn't break the cage thus evolution was to give a boost in strength.

Also take in account of other factors, I primarily was using Chikorita in this example, but the reason why Chikorita evolved because it wanted to protect Ash, not because it could break the cage. The general argument was not so much that it could break the cage so it couldn't escape but that it could break the cage because it was stronger.

Do you think they'd have made it a walkover anyway, to be realistic?

Of course they wouldn't. They would have him find it equally difficult/easy whether he was evolved or not. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been interesting to watch. That's the key here. The writers job is to keep it interesting, not realistic, and I think people forget that sometimes.

But why evolve the Pokemon at all? If the pre-evolved form had the same exactly potential strength why evolve it, and unlike your Charizard example it can't be applied to every Pokemon that did evolve.

The way I see it the only real reason why Buizel shouldn't evolve in terms of story and plot is because it doesn't want to evolve into a Floatzel. But so far there hasn't been anything of that, it's been neutral. It's neutralness may allow it to evolve.

Now again my stance as I said the first time is: Buizel doesn't necessarily have to evolve, and Buizel could be fine as it is in strength.

But I'm not going to ignore that Ash's Floatzel would be superior to Ash's Buizel except possibly in appearance.

And before you argue what I think you are going to argue. Let me say that it would be entirely up to the writers. They could easily have Floatzel win at least one match after it evolved, or they could have it lose every match. But if I was a writer, I would have Ash's Floatzel beat tough opponents fairly easier than if it was a Buizel.
 
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ijea4444

Well-Known Member
I did already say I hadn't in my previous post. That's pretty cool. I still firmly believe the writers will have all the matches he participates in turn out the same way regardless of whether he evolves or not, they'll just have him do it in a floatsacless way. As I'm starting to get slightly tired of saying, their job is to interest the audience, not keep it realistic; it doesn't make a blind bit of difference to them whether a pokemon is evolved or not. The anime =/= the games.
Like I said before, I'm not saying it won't evolve; just that it'll not change the outcome of a single match ever, and that they should evolve a pokemon whose evolution doesn't just look like a slightly larger version of itself.

Although I still believe that that anime=/=games you are incorrect about the your claim that in the anime it doesn't matter if a pokemon evolves. Some pokemon won't get better if they evolve, ie bulbasour, but in the case of charizard/sceptile/pidgeot, the writers deemed them too overpowered to stay in ash's team for too long. Which is also why evolutions are delayed and why grovyle evolved in middle of the BF saga and not in the hoenn saga.
 

J-boogie200

Well-Known Member
Pokemon like Piplup, Bulbasaur, and Squirtle don't need evolution. This goes for Buizel. However, pokemon like Torchic, Oddish, and Caterpie do. Buizel doesn't need to evolve. It is not mandatory, and if it is, please show me where. However, it can evolve, especially if the writers goal is to evolve every member on Ash's team, excluding Pikachu, who technically has evolved. I wonder if we'd ever get any backstory of it as a Pichu, since that pokemon seems to be what's hot right now.
 

Concept

Führer of Fun
I doubt it since there would've been no reason for it to evolve if that was the case. If the writer intended for that particular grass Pokemon to evolve, then that why it evolved so it could escape from the cage. The only reason to assume the Pokemon were ordered not to evolve, is because that's what the writers wanted, for it not to evolve thus it it would've learned a new more powerful move like leaf storm. If the writers want the grass Pokemon to evolve in that manner, then it makes perfect sense why it's pre-evolved form couldn't break the stage thus evolution was to give a boost in strength.

Also take in account of other factors, I primarily was using Chikorita in this example, but the reason why Chikorita evolved because it wanted to protect Ash, not because it could break the cage. The general argument was not so much that it could break the cage so it could escape but that it could break the cage because it was stronger.



But why evolve the Pokemon at all? If the pre-evolved form had the same exactly potential strength why evolve it, and unlike your Charizard example it can't be applied to every Pokemon that did evolve.

The way I see it the only real reason why Buizel shouldn't evolve in terms of story and plot is because it doesn't want to evolve into a Floatzel. But so far there hasn't been anything of that, it's been neutral. It's neutralness may allow it to evolve.

Now again my stance as I said the first time is: Buizel doesn't necessarily have to evolve, and Buizel could be fine as it is in strength.

But I'm not going to ignore that Ash's Floatzel would be superior to Ash's Buizel except possibly in appearance.

And before you argue what I think you are going to argue. Let me say that it would be entirely up to the writers. They could easily have Floatzel win at least one match after it evolved, or they could have it lose every match. But if I was a writer, I would have Ash's Floatzel beat tough opponents fairly easier than if it was a Buizel.

Thanks for taking the time to reply in full, I appreciate it.

The thing is though, you're not one of the writers. It isn't your job to keep pokemon fans entertained, and if it was and you had his evolved pokemon walkover opponents, you wouldn't be there for long. It wouldn't be interesting any more.

I think your argument about the grass pokemon is rather the wrong the around. It wouldn't have evolved in order to escape from the situation; the situation only existed in order to give it a dramatic scene in which to evolve. It may seem stronger in that one scene, but I maintain that it would make no difference whatsoever in later episodes.

They evolve pokemon not so they can perform better against the challenges they face, but because viewers would rightly find it ridiculous if no pokemon Ash owned ever evolved.

I'm not saying it shouldn't or won't evolve; the thread is about whether people still think it doesn't need to. My answer is yes.

Ash's Floatzel would be stronger than Ash's Buizel - in the games. In the anime, there' no such thing as a pokemons strength. The writers decide that they want a battle to go a certain way. Maybe they think "oh, that pokemon's his mascot, we should have that play an important part" or "oh, this pokemon hasn't played a major part in a while, maybe they should now". But strength, in the terms you're talking about it, doesn't exist in the anime; a Pikachu can beat a Dragonite if it suits the writers, and they do it in a suitably dramatic fashion. After all, if a pokemons strength was in any way relevant to the anime, then by rights Pikachu, who has shown the power to take down legendaries and pseudo-legendaries and various other pokemon a Pikachu should have no business beating, should be so much more powerful than the new pokemon Ash catches in each new region as to render Monferno, Grotle, Buizel etc totally useless by comparison.

Although I still believe that that anime=/=games you are incorrect about the your claim that in the anime it doesn't matter if a pokemon evolves. Some pokemon won't get better if they evolve, ie bulbasour, but in the case of charizard/sceptile/pidgeot, the writers deemed them too overpowered to stay in ash's team for too long. Which is also why evolutions are delayed and why grovyle evolved in middle of the BF saga and not in the hoenn saga.

Evolutions are delayed because if they all happened at the same time people would be like "not another one! that's the ninth this episode!" Those pokemon you mentioned didn't stay on his team for long because in each case he was moving to a new region shortly after they evolved, and they wanted to showcase the new regions pokemon. Specifically with Scepticile, Hoenn had already had more evolutions than Johto; maybe they didn't want the "not another one!" factor to crop up, as I feel it is during Sinnoh.
 
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bui

Well-Known Member
Lol So you're saying Buizel will stay the same strength if it evolve. The anime already said pokemon get stronger when they evolve so you cannot deny it.
 

Concept

Führer of Fun
Lol So you're saying Buizel will stay the same strength if it evolve. The anime already said pokemon get stronger when they evolve so you cannot deny it.

Actually, what I said was that a pokemons strength makes not a blind bit of difference in the anime. Also, the anime said that TR are wanted and successful criminals in their earliest appearance and then had them repeatedly fail to rob a ten year old kid. The anime said that ground types are immune to electric attacks and then had Pikachu destroy multiple ground types with electric attacks. In short, what the anime says and what the writers have happen have very little relation to each other.
 
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Concept

Führer of Fun

bui

Well-Known Member
Let just agree to disagree. In the end none of us has a say in what the writers do. Whatever they decide we all just got to accept it.
 
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Grei

not the color
Some pokemon won't get better if they evolve, ie bulbasour,

Dude, it's Bulbasaur. Not Bull-buh-sour. You've mispelled it's name a number of times already.

I honestly agree with Concept, though it's mostly because I feel it doesn't need to evolve, and Ash would look too overpowered if all of his Pokemon were evolved except for Pikachu.

Plus, Buizel is just cooler than Floatzel.
 

calum

Banned
Buizel is better looking than FLoatzel
 

Torpoleon

Well-Known Member
Buizel might evolve, not in Sinnoh though. I think it would evolve if Ash brings it back for a possible Johto BF, like with Phanpy in the Kanto BF. It does need to learn a new move, preferably an ice type move like Ice Punch or Ice Fang. Not Ice Beam. We have seen that a lot.
 

TurtwigFan1

burning it down
That's a good idea Torp, like many people have said, Buizel needs a new move. Preferably an Ice-type and then at the League he could use his Ice Aqua Jet by himself. He uses Ice Punch on his Aqua Jet or something along those lines. He can be powerful without evolving, but he might in the Johto BF saga.
 
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