Are Trump supporters implicitly Nazi apologists?

[DeepSeaDragon]

You have to at least concede that the vast majority of Trump supporters are horrible people.

No, I don't and I won't. I don't believe the politicians people vote for is indicative of their morality. Emotion should be (mostly) disconnected from politics imo. Sometimes you have to vote for crappy people if you believe the legislation they represent is better for the country. I may disagree with their reasoning for voting for him, but that doesn't mean I believe they are horrible people, it means I believe they are misguided and incorrect.

 

[Sadib]

No, I don't and I won't. I don't believe the politicians people vote for is indicative of their morality. Emotion should be (mostly) disconnected from politics imo. Sometimes you have to vote for crappy people if you believe the legislation they represent is better for the country. I may disagree with their reasoning for voting for him, but that doesn't mean I believe they are horrible people, it means I believe they are misguided and incorrect.

You think supporting someone who is ok with Neo-Nazis isn't a horrible person?

 

[DeepSeaDragon]

You think supporting someone who is ok with Neo-Nazis isn't a horrible person?

Most of the people who voted for him do not believe he is "ok with Neo-Nazis". You can disagree with that, and maybe you're right. I'm just telling you his questionable comments/tweets are not connected to the legislation that really matters to them. Taxes, economic growth, etc. I'm sure if most of them were convinced that he emboldened Neo-Nazis they would not vote for him, but most do not share that view. And most of them were never making the claim that he was a morally superior person.

 

[Sadib]

I'm sure if most of them were convinced that he emboldened Neo-Nazis they would not vote for him

Or maybe that's exactly why they voted for him.

 

[chess-z]

Most of the people who voted for him do not believe he is "ok with Neo-Nazis".

Then they're complicit. Pretending not to see what's in front of you, especially when that **** is NEO-NAZIS means you're complicit and enabling them.

 

[Mordent99]

Is anyone saying that illegal immigration is a good thing and we shouldn't have borders?

No, but Trump voters seem to think ALL illegal immigrants are on the same moral level as Al Capone. This is a new Red Scare.

 

[bobjr]

They don't call themselves Neo-Nazis either, they just agree with the base talking points and don't do anything to really go against them.

White Supremacy is closely related to Evangelical Christianity, and there's a reason why they went heavily for Trump.

 

[DeepSeaDragon]

White Supremacy is closely related to Evangelical Christianity, and there's a reason why they went heavily for Trump.

I don't want to challenge you on this because I don't want to start a long posting war, so I'll ask you one question and leave it at that.

Do you have objective evidence to substantiate that claim, or have confirmation bias and motivated reasoning brought you to that conclusion? In other words, do you feel like that is true or can you confidently assert that as the truth?

 

[chess-z]

I don't want to challenge you on this because I don't want to start a long posting war, so I'll ask you one question and leave it at that.

Do you have objective evidence to substantiate that claim, or have confirmation bias and motivated reasoning brought you to that conclusion? In other words, do you feel like that is true or can you confidently assert that as the truth?

Claims to not want to challenge claim, but challenges the claim immediately anyway.

 

[DeepSeaDragon]

Claims to not want to challenge claim, but challenges the claim immediately anyway.

Oh, I absolutely think that claim is worth challenging. I just meant I was only going to do so posing one question and leaving it at that, opposed to going back and fourth with paragraphs of arguments.

I don't expect to change people's minds on some forum. I'm just always curios to know if people actually believe some of the extraordinary claims they make because they have evidence I'm not familiar with or if it's simply confirmation bias. If dehumanizing your ideological opposition by using anecdotal evidence and confirmation bias helps you sleep at night, do your thing I guess. I just don't see anything intellectually honest about it.

For example, I'm a center-right Christian who probably agrees with the anti-Trump crowd more than you would think. I've found common ground with plenty of leftists who disagree with me on a lot. I just don't see anything healthy about shouting buzzwords at each other and reducing complicated discussions to "UR A NAZI SO I WIN"

 

[bobjr]

You mean the religion that was okay with slavery, against LGBT rights, is vastly ok with cops gunning down black people, and is okay with exploiting the prosperity gospel might just be a death cult fueled by racism?

This isn't about what you want to believe, or what "should" be, this is about what affects people in their day to day lives, and finding a solution to put all people on equal ground. Turns out voting in a dementia fueled racist who put non-dementia fueled racists in a position of power can potentially cause devastating amounts of damage to certain groups in this country. The least these people can do is say they only care about themselves, or say they really wanted to punish these groups of people, then they would at least be honest.

 

[DeepSeaDragon]

@bobjr

Christianity definitely doesn't have a spotless history. But I also don't think that yields blaming the world's problems on it when humans have always been finding reasons to be crappy to one another and they always will.

Anyway, I'm not here to defend Christianity and that's not my point. I agree with you about putting people on equal ground. That's why I think it's so important we don't reduce dialogue by sensationalizing the evils of our ideological oppositions. Most people on the right hate neo-nazis and white nationalism but some leftists will never know that because they are too busy calling everyone they disagree with a racist or sexist.

 

[bobjr]

I don't blame the world's problems on it, I just blame them for perpetuating it and turning a blind eye.

Plus I specifically mentioned American Evangelicalism for a reason. If people on the right really hated neo-nazis and white nationalism, I really wish more of them would stand up against it.

 

[DeepSeaDragon]

If people on the right really hated neo-nazis and white nationalism, I really wish more of them would stand up against it.

I can see where you're coming from. I consider myself somewhat on the right and I think there are plenty of prominent figures like Ben Shapiro on the right who regularly disavow neo-nazis, white nationalism, etc.

I can agree that more should come out against it. I believe they will more and more if the presence of the alt-right keeps growing.

 

[bobjr]

If Ben Shapiro is your first choice of people who disavow people like that I don't know what to tell you. The man wants the end goal without the dirty work involved. He would be just fine if LGBT people lost their rights, or if black people went back to "Separate but equal", but he's a huge pussy about actually doing anything about it.

Plus if the right couldn't come out against Jeff Fucking Sessions, a man too racist for the 1980's, then I have no hope. Instead you have the right throwing a fit that Trump was manipulated into supporting a plan that would give people citizenship.

 

[DeepSeaDragon]

If Ben Shapiro is your first choice of people who disavow people like that I don't know what to tell you. The man wants the end goal without the dirty work involved. He would be just fine if LGBT people lost their rights, or if black people went back to "Separate but equal", but he's a huge pussy about actually doing anything about it.

Well that sucks. I thought I was being as fair as I possibly could, hoping we could come to some sort of understanding. Oh well. I tried. There's no point in moving forward if you're going to compare Shapiro to the alt-right. It's been nice chatting with you.

 

[The Admiral]

Well that sucks. I thought I was being as fair as I possibly could, hoping we could come to some sort of understanding. Oh well. I tried. There's no point in moving forward if you're going to compare Shapiro to the alt-right. It's been nice chatting with you.

Not even going to try to put together a counterargument? You're just going to leave the conversation over this? Hell, you don't even come up with a half-assed "no he isn't".

So, are you acknowledging that this criticism is fair and reasonable?

I mean, it's your prerogative and all, but I'm just kind of surprised that you both consider this a dealbreaker for debate purposes and have no counter.

 

[DeepSeaDragon]

Not even going to try to put together a counterargument? You're just going to leave the conversation over this? Hell, you don't even come up with a half-assed "no he isn't".

So, are you acknowledging that this criticism is fair and reasonable?

I mean, it's your prerogative and all, but I'm just kind of surprised that you both consider this a dealbreaker for debate purposes and have no counter.

I'm not going to defend against the false accusation that an orthodox Jew who was the number one target of antisemitism online by the Alt-Right (according to the ACLU) is an Alt-Right/ white supremacist. There's no point in moving forward if that's how far you are willing to go to distance yourself from any common ground. I brought up an example of a mainstream conservative who regularly denounces Neo-Nazis (like him or not, he definitely does) and that still wasn't good enough. So yeah I'm not playing that game.

 

[Sadib]

I'm not going to defend the accusation that an orthodox Jew who was the number one target of antisemitism online by the Alt-Right (according to the ACLU) is an Alt-Right/ white supremacist. There's no point in moving forward if that's how far you are willing to go to distance yourself from any common ground. I brought up an example of a mainstream conservative who regularly denounces Neo-Nazis (like him or not, he definitely does) and that still wasn't good enough. So yeah I'm not playing that game.

No one said he was part of the alt-right. What does being Jewish have to do with being a white supremacist?

 

[Scammel]

Anti-Semitism is an absolutely core component of white supremacy. The movement attempted to disavow the Charlottesville attacker on account of partly Jewish heritage, and armed thugs 'stood watch' outside the local synagogue on the day. White supremacy is, after all, shorthand for Aryan supremacy.

Shapiro's a monumental arse, though.