Are ultra sun or moon worth getting?

[shoz999]

Oh. You mean the Mohn scene. Okay yeah. Lusamine definitely had more satisfyin closure in USUM than in Sun and Moon but I still think USUM really dumbed down the story and certain characters like Lusamine which in turn shorten Nebby's story and kind of made Lillie and Gladion appeared to be spoiled brats. I still think the original Sun and Moon's story had far better closure altogether than USUM's. Sorry but there is no way you can convince me that USUM's story is better than Sun and Moon's. So much of the major changes in USUM's story just feel so forced.

 

[Zhydra]

Oh. You mean the Mohn scene. Okay yeah. Lusamine definitely had more satisfyin closure in USUM than in Sun and Moon but I still think USUM really dumbed down the story and certain characters like Lusamine which in turn shorten Nebby's story and kind of made Lillie and Gladion appeared to be spoiled brats. I still think the original Sun and Moon's story had far better closure altogether than USUM's. Sorry but there is no way you can convince me that USUM's story is better than Sun and Moon's. So much of the major changes in USUM's story just feel so forced.

I can argue why I disagree with you about what they done with Lillie and Gladion in USUM.

While the Ultra Do nothing squad exist for building up to Necrozma (Who has enough of a back story to grasp and has done a few things on screen villain worthy.)

A few other things in USUM make more sense than you are letting on.

Lillie and Gladion were still abused in the USUM story. It is VERY clear if you haven't figured it out!

Gladion found potential in Type:Null that Lusamine sure as hell didn't so he took Type:Null and ran!

Lillie couldn't stand Cosmog's suffering, took it and ran! (Not wanting to see pokemon get hurt in those levels IS Lillies character!)

Lusamine being a stubborn,prideful person; refuses to listen to a couple children who to her is as she said it. "Would be much happier if they listen to the adults around them!"

Again... to me at least, USUM didn't dumb her down. It removed the Nihilego venom that turns her into the most unfiltered, most extreme, most WARPED version of her seen in the last game and showed us what was actually her. (Still a villain and a crazy for that matter! But the reasons behind are much more explained INSTEAD of being put in post game dialogue that a lot of people missed.)

Leaving Lusamine opened to redemption in S/M pissed a lot of people off so Game Freak done what they did in both the Anime and USUM. That being making her less villainous/ explain why she became a villain in USUM or with the Anime not even evil... though once Nihilego venom became a thing, she still said nasty things to her kids and tried to kill a couple times.

Her talking about wanting to stop Necrozma more stemmed from her wanting to vent out on Ultra Space and look for Mohn! Causing her to do so many immoral actions to achieve it. (Makes her more human and complex as a villain, instead of the one dimensional villain a lot of people see her as!)

Gladion's own words in USUM if Lusamine goes into that wormhole... there is a REAL chance she would only succeed in disappearing as well which would result in more trauma for the Aether kids.

If you must know about Nebby's story, it's conclusion simply takes place in another place! Even if Lillies reason for handing it over to you is to help Necrozma, it is a lot less forced to Lillies she isn't a trainer excuse. (Mahalo Trial is the new place to catch it!)

Heck, the only reason people complain about USUM so much is because Lillie isn't the main focus of that story... you are! (That does translate to Lillies story being weaker I agree, only by the default of her NOT being a focus. But saying it is ruined is pushing it.)

That and the Exeggutor island scene was only there to tell you that Lusamine wasn't always a psychotic monster (Which a lot of people missed anyways or misinterpreted it as something much worse.) As well as Lillie confessing her feelings for you.

USUM humanizing Lusamine in addition to Lillies moving her confession scene at the end of Rainbow Rocket made that scene unneeded.

Lillie gets more closure as well in USUM, getting to stay on Alola with all the friends she has made rather than go into a strange region by herself!

In USUM Lusamine changed for the better and rightfully so is staying out of her kids lives unless they actually need her presence. (Correcting her behavior on her own volition.)

While Gladion... even though he could have been used better in Rainbow Rocket, got to go explore the world with his Silvally. Getting to be his own! (He even comes back to Alola!)

 

[shoz999]

Spoiler Alert!

I'll admit you got some points in some areas like how the Rainbow Rocket episode does offer some character developoment despite how short it is, such as Lillie or Colress. However the thing is one of the reasons why the original Sun and Moon was a great story was that Lillie and Nebby is one of the main focuses of the story. There is a reason why people complain about it because they were a central part of what made Sun and Moon so great! That isn't a bad thing from what your implying. In fact to some players, Lillie and Nebby are the ones who feel like the main character, that Sun and Moon is there story, not yours which is another reason why people like the duo.

Also I personally think Lusamine's humanization is very rushed in USUM with the exception of the Mohn Scene. This is mostly due to the fact that her wanting to save the world from Necrozma just appears out of nowhere where she speaks like some kind of hero while making one of the most dumb decisions, trying to defeat Necrozma by herself. Due to this rushed plotpoint, it completely takes away what made Lusamine so human to begin with in the original Sun and Moon. The original Sun and Moon did show humanization but in a more subtle and interesting way that her obsession with beauty distances her from her family more and more bringing ever closer to the brink of madness until you the main character saves her from this madness. Then you see a heartwarming scene of Lusamine regaining her humanity again and remembering how precious her daughter is. That smaller but heartwarming scene where she touches Lillie's face is way better than Lusamine declaring that she's going to save the world with almost no help. In fact one of the reasons why Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon is so divided is because much of Lusamine's best elements is thrown out of the window or feels downgraded in order to make her the "hero". That's not why so many people are interested in Lusamine's character and to be honest new players who play Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon will probably not understand what makes Lusamine such a great character in the USUM verisons unless they play the original Sun and Moon games and compare and contrast the two. She's shows tiny hints of madness in USUM through dialogue and a creepy smile a couple of times but not clearly enough to show that she can be freaking crazy to the point she's willing to get rid of her children and because of that her decisions look more dumb than insane. Even to people who already played Sun and Moon, this seems more dumb than insane.

I understand to a degree why you think Lusamine's character is great in USUM but her take is really different from the Sun and Moon versions that it's going to be one of the major reasons that divide fans on Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon.

 

[Zhydra]

Who said I was implying Lillie being the main focus was a bad thing? Because I wasn't, I was only explaining why Lillie's character arc in USUM seem weaker in comparison to S/M. (I did say losing focus makes a weaker overall arc... even though USUM have better closer to that arc since it is actual closure. That and in USUM... Lillie and Nebby don't have to be separated from each other plot wise. Just that you are the trainer.)

While I do agree they showed moments where Lusamine could be redeemed in S/M and it is heart warming, however they came way too little to the point that a lot of people would not notice or care.

So USUM exist to clarify what would have been without the Nihilego venom.

The actual her, what would be once the venom is gone in the S/M timeline and she starts cleaning up her act!

Don't forget what the venom actually does, it increases all traits ten fold, dulls anything resembling a consciousness and redirects priorities to benefit the Nihilego.

The two's Lusamine's behavior is not that different to be honest because the S/M was drugged up to her most extreme in addition to the Mohn trauma that motivated her to mess with the wormholes in the first place.

(Compare and contrast the confrontation scene in both games!)

While USUM villainy was due to the Mohn trauma really messing her up and her faults going the way they did!

As well as people missing the scene in USUM... the first thing Lusamine does in making it up, tending to Nebby after the Necrozma fight and having Lillie help with it! Signs that things are starting to mend. Some are assuming the worse in that one as well.

USUM IS a game where you need to play S/M first to understand things better.

Spoiler by the way.

The scene in USUM's ending where Lusamine see's Gladion off when he leaves for Kanto is something to be considered heart warming in its own right.

 

[shoz999]

Actually it's mentioned in Sun and Moon by Gladion that Lusamine's madness started with Mohn disappearing into an Ultra Wormhole which than began a bunch of theories and memes before getting closure in USUM. Basically in both games, it's the same, Mohn's disappearance is the result of her madness and even with Nihilego, she's clearly shown to completely lost her mind before Nihilego poisoned her wanting the protagonist outright dead before she jumps into the Ultra Wormhole. In fact it was Mohn's disappearance that she started researching into Ultra Wormholes.

Also I thought how Lillie stands up to Lusamine and how Lusamine finally embraced her daughter was one of the most memorable and more emotional scenes of Sun and Moon throughout the main story. In fact I thought that Lillie was far better handled in Sun and Moon than the Lillie in Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon. In fact I don't think Lillie starts to show real strength until the Post-game. Actually now that I think about it, some characters don't even get proper development until the post-game like Lusamine.

Ultimately in the end, it's because of a lot of these reasons that I just think the 7th Generation had the most epic Pokemon story ever told (Sun and Moon) and the most dumbest Pokemon story told (Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon) which is why the 7th generation is my second favorite generation behind the 5th Generation.

 

[Zhydra]

Like I said, Mohn trauma and that is post game dialogue anyone playing S/M would miss or think that Lusamine did something to get rid of Mohn.

In S/M, it was kind of obvious she came into contact with Nihilego's venom BEFORE the game of S/M started if you compare Lusamines behavior in S/M and USUM. (Venom makes your instinctual behavior to its most extreme while shutting out the consciousness.)

In S/M she had her priorities for the Ultra Beast, everything she did was at its most extreme (Using Cosmogs power to open many wormholes without caring if it dies or not.), her having one verbal lashing at Lillie after another, her being incredibly selfish as that only Nihilego mattered, yelling at her kids, as well as the wanting to silence you part! Then she gets to Ultra Deep sea where she had a massive dosage and gone mad!

In USUM, she admitted that she HATES the ultra wormholes. (In contrast to the other being all over it!) Using Cosmog's power to open only one and even being hesitate, while showing only one malicious grin and even showed empathy for the Cosmog when it resisted her.
Even during the scene where Lusamine was talking down on Lillie, she went into the next room leaving would be considered more comforting words, like thanking Lillie for keeping the Cosmog safe. As well as complimenting her kids growth when Cosmog resisted. (Even complimenting Gladion when he offered to go in her stead.)

Not to mention Gladion's dialogue in the big scene is rather different, S/M he wanted to flat out stop her, USUM he is basically begging her to NOT go while actually calling her mother. So something has to have changed in USUM besides the Recon Squad showing up.

Her having Alola as well as her kids being as a priority to protect rather than only caring for Nihilego. (She still disowned her kids!) She does challenge you in USUM at this to metaphorically silence any if all objections of her going to fight Necrozma.

(Aka without that venom she isn't even homicidal... but she still wanted to basically shut everyone up!)

And because Lusamine in USUM never went off the complete deep end (She is still crazy in USUM. She was doing her control freak behavior... ultimately because she didn't want to loose anyone else again which is understandable and made more clear in USUM.) we got to see Lusamine actually start to make it up for her behavior.

One, letting her kids live out their lives without interfering unless they need her. (Correcting her control freak behavior.) Having her frozen pokemon collection starting to get thawed, re assessing her definition of love.

I always pictured USUM's Lusamine post game to be what is going to happen when S/M's Lusamine has the venom out of her system.
(Since the other one was hospitalized, we never really see it rather than Lillie talking about it.) (Again, Sun and Moon... if you want the plot to continue you better start writing fanfics!)

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I thought the story and character development in USUM was absolutely horrible. All the characters get less development and some get negative development. All the characters have become much more shallow. The new characters added absolutely nothing to the story. Not to mention the battles against them were absolutely pathetic. In the very least that ultra beast they fought you with should have been the one given to you. That would have at least added some kind of point to their inclusion.

I found it strange they could all the romantic elements with Lillie out of the story as well. All it did was rob Lillie of almost all her character. She's just barely involved now.

Lusamine was a deep character in S/M. They robbed her of EVERYTHING just to "redeem" her character. Her redemption would have been so much impactful if she had fallen first. Light shines so much brighter after the darkness.


Maybe Hau is a better character in USUM? That's about it. I mean, I don't remember much of him in S/M but him liking masalas. But at least in USUM he eventually becomes a serious trainer.


The only reason USUM is worth anything is because of the few new pokemon. That and the fact I could travel through Alola with an Ampharos, but that's just a me thing. I also got excited in Black 2 when I could travel through that region with an Ampharos.

 

[Zhydra]

One. Lillies romantic scenes are NOT removed. They are just put into the Rainbow Rocket episode (At the end when she confess to wanting to do the trials with you.)

While Lillie got less focus toward the end, I personally don't mind it because she got to be a trainer, she is one of the most useful partners in the battle tree. (Lillies Clefairy in the Faba fight was ACTUALLY pretty useful... least to me!) as well as getting to be with all the friends and new family she made on Alola as well as be with Nebby. (Or be with your character who has Nebby!)

I already spoke that Lillie having less focus does make her story weaker by a default! But the growth was still there!

By the way, Lusamine is still a complex character, if not more so in USUM (Who in S/M before you saw beaten her was seen as a one dimensional villain and the depth for her villainy came in the wrong place at the wrong time! "Post game dialogue that is easy to miss!")

She is still a crazy person that froze pokemon, took advantage of everyone around her, green lit Type:Null, had Cosmog go through horrible treatment and abused her kids (the dialogue from Gladion and Lillie before the big confrontation with Lusamine DID NOT CHANGE!)

All the so call depth you mentioned found in S/M is still in USUM. More specifically depth as a character that to be honest you need to play both games to know enough about her! (USUM's deeds came from her.... anything found there that is found in S/M is legitimately her while the things specifically in S/M is from the venom.)

She was going after Necrozma to find Mohn/ vent her frustration out on Necrozma. A reckless and proven to be endangering decision that resulted in an Ultra Beast out break like in S/M.

We saw on screen character development with Lusamine in USUM rather than hinting it like in S/M where she got hospitalized! As well as see more of that in the post game. (You probably didn't talk to her before the Rainbow Rocket episode... that was where it really started when she is regretting her actions and you probably never saw the dialogue in title defense. Do title defense during the first on the month.)

Also, wait a month until after you beaten USUM.... there is a bit more character development for her once you beat Gladion in title defense.

Plus you didn't see that Guzma actually made good on his redemption/ helped you fight Rainbow Rocket?!

 

[shoz999]

Actually I think Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon are still good additions just in a different way over Sun and Moon. Personally I sum up the two games like this.

If you like great story-telling, get Sun and Moon. If you like action ahd challenge, get Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon.