JennaJayfeather
Gangrenous Creature
Lol! I agree with this! XDDD
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Are we really abusing the term "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" for the Anime characters?
- Thread starter matt0044
- Start date
Lol! I agree with this! XDDD
AgentPierce
Mad science FTW!
Except she wasn't very rude at all; she was one of the more supportive characters in Sinnoh.
Stack her up against the likes of Paul, Ursula and Barry, then say she's rude.
Er, it was an issue between friends of hers, so she has the right to get invovlved.
Except that everyone uses those in the anime. Seriously, Pokemon dodge attacks in about every battle, and there isnt a "dodge" move in the games as far as I know.
This is the heart of the issue, eh? Nando (who, IMO, is an inferior character) lost in the GF and Zoey won.
Sorry, just because you're still butthurt over Nando not winning doesn't mean you can throw out the Sue label.
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CupidKirby
Well-Known Member
He's probably the closest we've had to one in terms of personality. What with the owning of tonnes of money, being an elite-four member, his hair-flipping and all that. Just because we don't think a character is bad or annoying doesn't meant they aren't acting like whatever we would define a stu as. I'm pretty sure the writers did that on purpose though just to emphasize that whole Misty-thing.
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The Great Butler
Hush, keep it down
I wouldn't want my friends telling me what to do if I didn't ask for their opinion first.
Evasion, Double Team, Minimize, etc. And that's different than using a move in a completely impossible way, which is closer to Ash's cheating in the second Anabel match by recalling and immediately reusing Corphish, AIM FOR THE HORN, Thunder Armor, or any of the other times an immunity is ignored.
Get off your high horse and stop putting words in my mouth. That line wasn't even about the Grand Festival, it was about how he wasn't allowed to be shown proving Zoey wrong.
THAT'S why I'm putting the Sue label on Zoey. Everybody loved her, she was never shown really being challenged at all by anyone besides her parents, even the only time she was ever really shown remotely not succeeding at anything was the sprained-ankle subplot, while her most pronounced negative trait - her obsession with the Gym/Contest divide - was just suddenly shoved out offscreen to justify turning her into a stereotypical invincible big sister to Dawn.
This, just about. I disagree on the "overly perfect" requirement, but the "fits into the story in an unrealistic manner" bit is pretty much spot on. Sure, the "God Mode" and "Purity" Sue varieties are almost certainly the most common; I'd argue that, for example, pretty much all of Pokemon's league-only-type rivals qualify as one or the other, Tobias being most obvious, considering their tendency to exist solely as a means--a "diabolus ex machina," or "devil out of the machine," if you will--to make the appropriate main character lose in their region-ending tournament arc. But whether or not the character exists unrealistically--in particular, whether or not they warp the nature of the world or the characters within the story--is far more important; otherwise, the various Sue varieties that do have flaws (for instance, the Anti-Sue, a character whose creation process may as well have involved the author perusing a checklist of common Sue qualities and going "Oh, well, I'll just make my character the exact opposite of all of this!" and yet falls into the exact same pitfalls as other Sues) probably wouldn't be as well-recognized.
Take, for instance, Dr. Gregory House. Perfect? No; even though he's supposed to be very good at what he does, he doesn't always get the right answer, and when he does, it's after he's spent the other forty-odd minutes of the episode coming up with the wrong one. Attractive? Well, that depends on your opinion of Hugh Laurie with a bum leg and a permanent five o'clock shadow. Nice guy? Quite the opposite; he frequently bullies not only his employees, but also his patients, his boss, his best friend...he's a jerk. A lonely, borderline-crippled, pill-popping jerk. A genuinely flawed character.
But here's the thing: he's still a Sue (Stu for the politically correct)--at least, I believe he is. Why? Because he's a jerk--or rather, because he's a jerk and gets away with it, even though he really shouldn't. His team of employees respect him. His boss is practically in love with him. His best friend is still his best friend. His patients...well, okay, there's been mention that the hospital only keeps House around because he's "Just That Good" and has part of its budget set aside solely to deal with lawsuits against him, but those are more likely from the genuinely stupid "Johnny Everyman" clinic patients that he regularly insults, as opposed to the patients-of-the-week with actual life-threatening conditions; they're typically nothing but grateful that he saved their life. But personally, I should think that his skill level wouldn't take precedent over the fact that he's a drug addict who not only regularly orders/performs risky and unethical if not illegal medical procedures (and bullies his boss into letting him do them), but has done numerous other things that, in the real world (which is where the show ostensibly takes place), would have not only gotten him fired from the hospital and his license to practice medicine revoked, but landed his sorry tush in prison for any number of years.
Sorry, got a bit ranty there. Point is, a character can still possess genuine flaws and still be a Sue.
Conversely, a character can possess no immediately visible flaws and yet not be a Sue. Like Cynthia; lacking in flaws, to be sure, but considering her role as one of the most powerful trainers in the franchise (just like all the other Champions), it's honestly very much to be expected.
And--though this may be more of a personal thing--it's also possible to still enjoy a character even if they're almost undeniably a Sue of some sort. Like, I still enjoy (well, enjoyed, at least) House's character despite the above criticisms, and the main reason I like Tobias as much as I do is because he's such a blatant Sue; he just wouldn't have had the same effect if he'd been "just another" league-only rival. And hell, what about Paul? Biggest Jerk Sue-type character in the entire show right there, and just look at how much love he gets!
'Course, with all that said, yes, you all do have something of a collective tendency to use "Mary Sue" (and her older, hotter sister, "Deus ex Machina") as shorthand for "I don't like this character or how they did this or that thing or behave in a way I don't like, but because I don't feel like expending five brain cells on attempting to provide a cohesive, logical argument, here's a lame, misused blanket term."
Seriously, stop it.
Not to mention that the show's "dodge" mechanic has effectively been worked into the games; when a move misses, the message no longer says "[move] missed!" but rather, "[Pokemon] avoided the attack!", with the implication that you're supposed to imagine them actually dodging the move as opposed to just standing still and trading blows (which the older games apparently had them doing).The Great Butler said:
randomspot555
Well-Known Member
I don't really think you can make a case of a protagonist being a Sue. Sure, House as a concept is unrealistic, but so is Pokemon.
Mm. I suppose it has a bit to do with willing suspension of disbelief. Like, we know Pokemon's a completely different world with its own set of rules, so it's a bit more acceptable when something happens that's not quite so realistic--though even that has its limits, like when a protagonist does something that violates not only rules that we're familiar with, but also established rules of the setting (e.g. Thunder Armor), but I agree that even a couple of breaks in "reality" like that don't necessarily make the perpetrator a Sue.
With House, being that the setting's rules and those of real life are (ostensibly) one and the same, the fact that the title character's able to consistently get away with being such a massive dick to everyone around him all but breaks that suspension of disbelief beyond repair. Like, I can still watch and enjoy the show (gotta love the MST3K Mantra), but with any character like that--a fan character, a canon one, even the primary protagonist--I do indeed feel like they're a Sue.
Y'see where I'm coming from?
CyberCubed
Yeah, ok!
Zoey was still close to being a sue, even if she wasn't completely one.
She was also the only rival of the series that had no flaws and wasn't used for comedy either. She almost felt like Dawn's mother on the road.
She was also the only rival of the series that had no flaws and wasn't used for comedy either. She almost felt like Dawn's mother on the road.
Caseydia
Ace Trainer
Zoey had alot of flaws. I don't know why no one saw that. It's just that she never seemed to admit it to Dawn or others that she was nervous or careless in some of her contest battles. And she did not win all of them.
CyberCubed
Yeah, ok!
She won every on screen contest battle except the one to May.
matt0044
Well-Known Member
Dawn and Zoey's rivalry could've worked like this: Zoey helps out Dawn with contests in a mentor-like way and all that culminates in the Grand Festival where Dawn wins, beating Zoey. At least, I think so. I wouldn't be surprise if the writers were initially going to do that.
And no, I don't think Dawn winning would've made her a Sue. It all depends on how the battle is written.
And no, I don't think Dawn winning would've made her a Sue. It all depends on how the battle is written.
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CyberCubed
Yeah, ok!
Out of all the main rivals the series ever had, Zoey was definitely the closest to a sue.
Before her, both Gary and Drew were shown to have on-screen losses and have several appearances of humility. Gary lost the Indigo league before Ash even did, and Drew lost to coordinators like Grace and the Phantom that May eventually went on to beat.
This might also be why anytime May and Drew battled, it felt like the battle could go either way, yet with Zoey...we just knew she would always win.
I find it kind of ironic that we get to see May beat Zoey but we never get to see Dawn beat her own rival. Its like May stole her thunder in a way. Its only back then we didn't know that Dawn would never beat Zoey in a GF.
Before her, both Gary and Drew were shown to have on-screen losses and have several appearances of humility. Gary lost the Indigo league before Ash even did, and Drew lost to coordinators like Grace and the Phantom that May eventually went on to beat.
This might also be why anytime May and Drew battled, it felt like the battle could go either way, yet with Zoey...we just knew she would always win.
I find it kind of ironic that we get to see May beat Zoey but we never get to see Dawn beat her own rival. Its like May stole her thunder in a way. Its only back then we didn't know that Dawn would never beat Zoey in a GF.
1rkhachatryan
Call me Robert guys
Didn't she lose to Nando the first time??
CyberCubed
Yeah, ok!
It was done off-screen though so we didn't see the battle.
She had a 99 win streak with excadrill in her hometown as a kid, in a tournament, untill Drayden beat her.
matt0044
Well-Known Member
Although some of that 99 may or might not have been very skilled Trainers. I'd like to think that it was mix of skilled one who made her earn her victory and amateurs who weren't even worth her time.
Caseydia
Ace Trainer
So what? She lost regardless, so that means she has her flaws and she didn't win everything.
The Great Butler
Hush, keep it down
Doing it offscreen means they didn't want us to see her lose then.
That wasn't really the only flaw though; resolution of a major character trait like that really needs to not be rushed.
Now that I'm thinking about it though... was it ever actually explicitly confirmed Nando won and Zoey lost? Sure, we saw Zoey talk about having respect for people who went against her beliefs, but by itself that does not really say she lost. He could have only come close to beating her.
CyberCubed
Yeah, ok!
Zoey lost that match.