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Are we really abusing the term "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" for the Anime characters?

Demonsead

Hoenn Challenger

Champion Jared 14

Well-Known Member
I'm kinda surprised nobody attempted to argue against my points on Takuto thus far.

I mean, if anything it seems like Takutobias was more of a plot device rather than Stu, though he did have Stu-like qualities.

He was basically written in to be the dark-horse character in the Sinnoh League, the one to beat, the one who took the Grand Prize home.

He wasn't necessarily liked or appreciated by his peers. He was a trainer seen as more of a threat, and an obstacle to get past. But he battled like an expert trainer. His skills were very polished, and he won all of his matches with ease. There wasn't any kind of backstory given on how he developed his skills, or how he caught his legendary pokemon. Doesn't make him very relatable as a character.
 

Caseydia

Ace Trainer
If Takuto shows up again in Unova(crosses fingers), maybe we can give Takuto the Gary Stu term because we might get to know more about him and how he got such strong Pokemon in the first place. They just don't give out Darkrai's in Pokemon Labs ya know.
 

Yeul

Green Eyed Girl
I said I don't see them as any kind of sue. Why did you think I meant anything else?

Hmm......I think Tobias is more of a troll than an actual Stu. People on these forums like him enough to discuss comeback episodes and tournaments where he beats Ash again, which is rare in regards to Sues/Stus because you'd just want them to leave and have the writers be done with them. Tobias isn't getting that kind of reception in my view, so really he's not a Stu.

Zoey's no exception though, she can freeze in the lowest circle of hell for making the Contests so boring. At least we had poor Ursula, but how come the superior rivals can't be as entertaining, instead relying on interesting/strong Pokemon and nice designs?
 

CupidKirby

Well-Known Member
If Tobias comes back by the end of BW just to troll Ash again, I'd actually be pretty interested to see how far Ash would get this time in beating him.
 

AgentPierce

Mad science FTW!
Zoey's no exception though, she can freeze in the lowest circle of hell for making the Contests so boring.

Uh, the contests would've been boring with or without Zoey.

And no, Zoey is NOT a Mary Sue. She was just a terribly inconsistently handled character. Her never been "wrong" or barely being defeated makes her a victim of wasted potential writing rather than Sue-ishness, and her being an awesome coordinator makes her...well, a freaking awesome coordinator. But she's not flawless, nor was she ever treated as a perfect human being.

Honestly, if winning at contests alot makes Zoey boring and a Sue, what did that make May during Battle Frontier? In fact, what does that make Paul, who is praised by fandom as such an "awesome rival", yet he beat down nearly every opponent he came across all the time (out of his four losses, the two against Ash were still incredibly close; he could curb-stomp Ash but Ash could never curb-stomp him), and unlike Zoey, he never admits to any bad behavior on his part and in fact gets away with it nearly every damn time!

This, friends, IS a Sue; what's known as a "Jerk Sue".

In the end, IMO, the only real Sues are Ash post-OS/pre-BW, Ritchie, Solidad, Paul, animeverse Cynthia, and Tobias of course. And I actually do tend to cut Ritchie some slack because, as someone earlier said, it really wasn't his fault he came across as such a Sue.

Can I just say that I also rather like Tobias? I think his voice is sexy.

Then you like J Michael Tatum, not Tobias the character himself.

I haven't seen that episode in ages but was it ever actually said if Aipom hit Glameow, Ash would have won? I mean Zoey owned the match the whole time so one hit and suddenly she would lose? If anything it makes Ash look like the sue

THIS. So very much.
 
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CyberCubed

Yeah, ok!
How was Ash a sue pre-BW?

That doesn't make any sense. Ash was a more experienced trainer at the time but he STILL lost and had things to learn.
 

AgentPierce

Mad science FTW!
Umm, he's a pure goody-twoshoes, won most all his battles, was usually always in the right, has seen/helped/befriended several legendary pokemon, has girls falling for him left and right even though he'll never return their feelings, has that special "aura" power that came up once in awhile, has been a "destined hero" more than once, hogged the spotlight from many other (better) characters, and was generally portrayed as the kindest, most loving trainer to his Pokemon that no other trainer can compare to. Add that to the fact that the world seems to bend over to serve his purposes every now and then, and you have a Mary Sue protagonist.

Honestly, losing his biggest matches is just the one thing he DOESN't have going for him.
 

JennaJayfeather

Gangrenous Creature
Lolz..."Are we abusing the term Mary Sue/Gary Stu for anime characters?"

Let's see..."Iris is a sue!" "Dento is a Stu!" "Ash is a Stu" "Tobias is a Stu!" "Dawn is a Sue!" "Zoey is a Sue!"

Since no one can come onto an agreement can we just say "Pokemon" is a Mary Sue show then? :D
 

Yeul

Green Eyed Girl
Lolz..."Are we abusing the term Mary Sue/Gary Stu for anime characters?"

Let's see..."Iris is a sue!" "Dento is a Stu!" "Ash is a Stu" "Tobias is a Stu!" "Dawn is a Sue!" "Zoey is a Sue!"

Since no one can come onto an agreement can we just say "Pokemon" is a Mary Sue show then? :D

Nah, the current trio aren't Mary Stus........but Zoey is, and that's my unchanging opinion.
 

CyberCubed

Yeah, ok!
Umm, he's a pure goody-twoshoes, won most all his battles, was usually always in the right, has seen/helped/befriended several legendary pokemon, has girls falling for him left and right even though he'll never return their feelings, has that special "aura" power that came up once in awhile, has been a "destined hero" more than once, hogged the spotlight from many other (better) characters, and was generally portrayed as the kindest, most loving trainer to his Pokemon that no other trainer can compare to. Add that to the fact that the world seems to bend over to serve his purposes every now and then, and you have a Mary Sue protagonist.

He was a destined hero in the original seasons too. He also had girls from the movies like Melody and Latias kiss him.

Ash is no different than he's ever been. He has some cheap wins along the road but he's always never allowed to become too strong.
 

Caseydia

Ace Trainer
You sure are right baout that. I think that's why most people still likes him. Because he is not too perfect like most competitive shonen characters
 

AgentPierce

Mad science FTW!
He was a destined hero in the original seasons too. He also had girls from the movies like Melody and Latias kiss him.

Back in the original seasons, him being a destined hero hadn't been used to death the way it is now. Melody kissed him out of some sort of obligation to "the chosen one" (and kept teasing Misty about it afterwards), but with Latias it had gotten kind of dumb. Ash pretty much was a Stu by that point anyway.

Ash is no different than he's ever been.

WRONG! Right now I guess you could say he's no different then he's been for the whole past decade, but he's very clearly a different character now than he was back in the early seasons. And it's NOT from any good character development either.

You sure are right baout that. I think that's why most people still likes him. Because he is not too perfect like most competitive shonen characters

And it's why I dislike him. Because he is generic like most competitive shonen characters, and still close to perfect enough.

Oh and, baout? Wha?
 
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CupidKirby

Well-Known Member

An unchanging opinion can't be wrong XD

Umm, he's a pure goody-twoshoes, won most all his battles, was usually always in the right, has seen/helped/befriended several legendary pokemon, has girls falling for him left and right even though he'll never return their feelings, has that special "aura" power that came up once in awhile, has been a "destined hero" more than once, hogged the spotlight from many other (better) characters, and was generally portrayed as the kindest, most loving trainer to his Pokemon that no other trainer can compare to. Add that to the fact that the world seems to bend over to serve his purposes every now and then, and you have a Mary Sue protagonist.

Honestly, losing his biggest matches is just the one thing he DOESN't have going for him.

So what happened in BW that changed all that? Just curious.
 

AgentPierce

Mad science FTW!
An unchanging opinion can't be wrong XD

Except when it is. XD

So what happened in BW that changed all that? Just curious.

Nothing much happened to his character that changed, it's more the way he's handled now. There's more jokes at his expense and he always gets taken down a peg whenever he behaves like an idiot, rather than glorified and treated like he's endearing.
 
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Demonsead

Hoenn Challenger
Umm, he's a pure goody-twoshoes, won most all his battles, was usually always in the right, has seen/helped/befriended several legendary pokemon, has girls falling for him left and right even though he'll never return their feelings, has that special "aura" power that came up once in awhile, has been a "destined hero" more than once, hogged the spotlight from many other (better) characters, and was generally portrayed as the kindest, most loving trainer to his Pokemon that no other trainer can compare to. Add that to the fact that the world seems to bend over to serve his purposes every now and then, and you have a Mary Sue protagonist.

Honestly, losing his biggest matches is just the one thing he DOESN't have going for him.

Well this is an....amusing post, one that persuades me to never take anything you say seriously ever again, but just for fun..

Umm, he's a pure goody-twoshoes.
Becaue people can't be written as nice guys without being written as a stu.

won most all his battles.
He is the main character, he is expected to win most of his fights, otherwise he'll never reach his goal.

was usually always in the right.
Unless your whining about him giving life lessons that some COTD needed, or his training ethic that as a trainer he should have for his own Pokemon by now, this is not a trait that Ash alone shares in the Anime.

has seen/helped/befriended several legendary pokemon,
...as has Misty, Brock, Tracey, May, Max, Dawn, and Team Rocket. They must be sues too.

has girls falling for him left and right even though he'll never return their feelings,.
Whatever(weak, maybe baseless)points you had are gone thanks to this claim. Ash has only ever had 2 girls showing romantic hints for him, Latias and Anabel, those never went anywhere, but not on any fault of ash's. You make it sound like damn near every girl his age harbors secret feelings for him, It's laughable.

has that special "aura" power that came up once in awhile
What? the "listening to Aura-sensitive pokemon power that was only good for a TV special? He's not flinging Aura Spheres at Team Rocket.

has been a "destined hero" more than once
You must have a problem with every single fictional character that is a destined something.

hogged the spotlight from many other (better) characters
And now we get to your(now very clear) bias against Ash. Possibly your saddest point, liking a side character more than a main character isn't unheard of, so I'll just acknowledge this as unimportant and move on.

and was generally portrayed as the kindest, most loving trainer to his Pokemon that no other trainer can compare to.
This isn't any different than saying he's a pure goody-twoshoes.

Add that to the fact that the world seems to bend over to serve his purposes every now and then, and you have a Mary Sue protagonist..
Wrong, this is exactly why calling any character in the Anime a sue is laughable and basically amounts to nothing but personal contempt for the character.
 
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