Are you fine with the way games are?

[janejane6178]

With all its flaws, its a privillege to be a Pokemon fan. They always release new games and expand on the Pokemon world. Its so exciting to see news regarding a new core games. Im greatful that I still like Pokemon and I hope it stays that way. DP remakes nextttt please

 

[Pokegirl Fan~]

Crown Tundra has improved SwSh a lot for me.

 

[Tepig Pignite Emboar 969]

Yeah, like the games or not, I wish people would live and let live.

I totally agree. I get upset with so called fans that call themselves fans of Pokemon and insult others who like Sword and Shield. People are afraid to defend these games without getting attacked and getting death threats. These games are great and I feel like we should start a Defend Sword and Shield movement to let people know how great these games are.

 

[Gamzee Makara]

While I'm not happy for dex cuts...

1. Consider what was cut for Dynamax/Gigantamax-related reasons, and what was added to supplement it.
2. Why Pokémon were cut? Do they have a ton of moves that were cut/are they thematically inappropriate/redundant, and/or simply not popular enough, long-term, based on various factors
3. Consider how cut moves, Megas, Z-Moves forms and other such things would interract with Dynamax/G-Max if allowed
4. Learn about Masuda and Ohmori's' clear-cut history of not understanding English terms, metaphors and analogies not in the dictionary/textbook, and thus might not have given clear instructions to his translators when he "lied"
5. Consider that you might be nostalgically attached to/have grown up from, or let YouTubers/Romhacks/mods/pirate sims warp your judgement and thus not have the emotional balance to talk about it with minimal resentment
6. Have lost sight of the fact that this is a fancy toy and accompanying toys
7. May be projecting/venting/redirecting anger in an unhealthy way
8. Might be wanting to justify Death/Rape/Violence Threats to feel "above/better" like a toxic elitist/gatekeeper.
9. Might be an asshole with no sense of proportionate response, no control of your hobby, a kidult throwing a tantrum over digital pet toys, a Drama Queen and/or an addict.
10. All/some of the above.

Any sympathy I had for NatDexers died with DistantKingdom's little cult threatening GF employees, deplatforming people via various methods those who don't kowtow to their wishes, and employing PragerU bullshit tactics. The boob mods for tweens showing up on a DK video thumbnail showed me the character of the ringleaders...doesn't help that the leaders came from the Sonic Fandom.

So the games are flawed, but GF are not the totalitarian, incompetent, jackboot-on-neck, worse than Ubisoft, Konami and EA assholes the DKult cult portrays them as.

NatDexers are not the Jim Sterling-esque crusaders for better games/rebellion against the GF Empire they claim they are.

So ignore them and anything NatDexer related

And que, cera, cera.

 

[Locormus]

I haven't really enjoyed any of the core games since Gen VI, so I do have problems with the direction of the franchise. I don't have any real advice for Game Freak's staff, however. They rarely seem to care about fan feedback anyway given that they seemed sanguine about the "Dexit" complaints at first, and while I dislike the newer games, there's no denying that there's still a market for them considering how well Shield and Sword have sold.

There's a few things to unpack here.
1. Dexit: It's a fanmade, millennial-whinefest. Be greatful for what you get - and we all know that we could upload everything to Home. And now with the DLC, we've basically seen GameFreak's intention - and why they weren't fussed about it. Next titles will probably incorporate the few remaining omissions. Point being: People need to keep calm and not throw a millennial-fit every time there's something they don't like.

2. I do agree that they should listen to 'fan-feedback' to a certain degree. But the audacity of some 'fans' had when it came to 'Dexit' is just out of proportions and even potentially criminal.

3. Of course there's a market for these games. They're the first non-remake titles in a 3d format that have the same game-mechanics as the core titles (meaning, they're not trying to reel in Pokémon Go players with similar game-mechanics). Combined with the heavy nostalgia-factor that they're pandering and you've got a good sell there - even if the games are subpar.

4. The direction of the franchise is as far as I know based on wanting to compete with the mobile gaming market, which is flushing 'game time' from young players. Therefore, they're making the games easier to get into and it's why the most recent generations have felt as if you were led throughout the entire game by secondary characters (Kukui/Lillie, Hop/Sonia). So they're basically making them easier and finding ways of keeping you hooked by going from cutscene to cutscene. Honestly, I'm not a fan of this, but I can understand the reasoning behind it.

5. Which leads me to react to your first sentence. If I could just go back and showcase how many times or hours I've played each generation, something becomes very clear: Gen1, 2, 3, 4. I've played them to death with save files with over 400 hours or more. Countless replays of GenI-III, granted on sped-up emulators, but they keep reeling me in for another one. GenIV is probably my favorite and I've had several 400+ hour playthrough's. And hell yeah I'm going to play them to death if they get remakes.

I've only yesterday started a replay on White (on an emulator this time, since I've finally found a good one - and really hyped and trying to do a Nuzlocke now), but I've actually have a living dex on White2 (indicative of the hours spent on it) and countless hours on my physical copy of White.

GenVI took me a while to finish: Kinda want to do a replay, but it's low on my list.
GenVII: Read Sun, not UltraSun - I didn't fall for that cashgrab. I hadn't actually beaten Kukui until the run-up to Gen8 began. And that's the only reason why I picked up Sun again at that point. I haven't done anything of the Postgame.

GenVIII: I think I beat Raihan last month? Got the expension pass, but haven't gone to Isle of Armor or Crown Tundra. Honestly feels like €30'- wasted, but hey.. I wanted the 'complete' games. Increasingly upset that you can't even have the full game experience without having the spend €60 on the game, €30 on what should've already been in it (look at OrAs and tell me I'm wrong) and then a yearly €20 for online capabilities which are necessary to actually partake in what is apparently the main draw of these games: catching all shinies from exploited raids.

So since GenVI, there's this drop-off where I am hardly even finishing the mainstory.

I'm totally not fine with a game where Dexit is a thing but since I'm too far gone and I'm part of the cattle hoard, I still end up buying them.

I'm totally a part of the problem and I'll admit that.

Anyway, while I think SwSh is serviceable is some regards, on others it feels really unfinished and unpolished.

Granted, you're already saying that you're part of the problem. But come the next batch of games - and Dexit won't even be a thing. Actually, in GameFreak's mind: It was never a thing, because adding batches through DLC was always going to be their plan. Unfortunate shortsighted people just didn't foresee how GameFreak had adjusted the model. I'm going to laugh my ass of if they add the removed moves in DLC for the next games though.

While I'm not happy for dex cuts...

1. Consider what was cut for Dynamax/Gigantamax-related reasons, and what was added to supplement it.
2. Why Pokémon were cut? Do they have a ton of moves that were cut/are they thematically inappropriate/redundant, and/or simply not popular enough, long-term, based on various factors
3. Consider how cut moves, Megas, Z-Moves forms and other such things would interract with Dynamax/G-Max if allowed
4. Learn about Masuda and Ohmori's' clear-cut history of not understanding English terms, metaphors and analogies not in the dictionary/textbook, and thus might not have given clear instructions to his translators when he "lied"
5. Consider that you might be nostalgically attached to/have grown up from, or let YouTubers/Romhacks/mods/pirate sims warp your judgement and thus not have the emotional balance to talk about it with minimal resentment
6. Have lost sight of the fact that this is a fancy toy and accompanying toys
7. May be projecting/venting/redirecting anger in an unhealthy way
8. Might be wanting to justify Death/Rape/Violence Threats to feel "above/better" like a toxic elitist/gatekeeper.
9. Might be an asshole with no sense of proportionate response, no control of your hobby, a kidult throwing a tantrum over digital pet toys, a Drama Queen and/or an addict.
10. All/some of the above.

Any sympathy I had for NatDexers died with DistantKingdom's little cult threatening GF employees, deplatforming people via various methods those who don't kowtow to their wishes, and employing PragerU bullshit tactics. The boob mods for tweens showing up on a DK video thumbnail showed me the character of the ringleaders...doesn't help that the leaders came from the Sonic Fandom.

So the games are flawed, but GF are not the totalitarian, incompetent, jackboot-on-neck, worse than Ubisoft, Konami and EA assholes the DKult cult portrays them as.

NatDexers are not the Jim Sterling-esque crusaders for better games/rebellion against the GF Empire they claim they are.

So ignore them and anything NatDexer related

And que, cera, cera.

Well okay then. Or just consider that the 'dex-cuts' were just to generate more appeal for the DLC-based release-format GF had switched to (without telling us beforehand of course):
1. Sword and Shield: 3 parts of the dex are cut.
2. Isle of Armor: You get a big part of the dex back! And a new legendary!
3. Crown Tundra: You get another big part of the dex back! And a new legendary!
4. ...: You get the remaining part of the dex back! And... Play through an entirely revamped region!

I imagine '4' would be Sinnoh-remakes, but realistically could be anything and the second part would still apply.

 

[Ignition]

The games are ok. I don’t think they’re the worst things ever created nor do I feel the need to praise/defend GameFreak for them at every chance I can get. There’s definitely room for improvement but I think they’re evolving more than they’re regressing.

If the responses in this thread and what the Dexit situation brought are anything to go by, the fan base acts like it’s something that you need to argue about and you can’t (dis)like these games without someone generalizing unless you’re echoing their opinion. I just play the game and acknowledge both the good and bad without bias as it’s not worth getting a headache over. It’s a much more enjoyable experience when you can do both instead of sticking to extremes and calling people “shills” or “NatDexers” lol

 

[Ophie]

Something I want to point out: There was a discussion on TV Tropes about "Broken Base" examples throughout the site and what should be removed due to them not being a major point of contention within a fandom. They eventually made their way to "Dexit" for Pokémon, and some of the people questioned how having some Pokémon removed couldcreate such a fandom uproar and if it even happened. It took a few Pokémon fans to come in and explain what happened, and now it's known to dedicated tropers as a poster child of much ado over nothing.

The reason why is because these people are used to long-running video game series with a large cast of playable characters have some go away and others come back with each installment. Pokémon is the only major one to have retained everything up until Pokémon Sword and Shield. Even for Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, which brought everyone back, Masahiro Sakurai said it's very unlikely this would ever happen again, and license-related holdups aside, the project had thoroughly exhausted him and he wanted to relax. They weren't sure why Pokémon fans got so hung up on it.

By the way, I feel the title of this question is loaded.

I totally agree. I get upset with so called fans that call themselves fans of Pokemon and insult others who like Sword and Shield. People are afraid to defend these games without getting attacked and getting death threats. These games are great and I feel like we should start a Defend Sword and Shield movement to let people know how great these games are.

Careful about that--the vocal defenders of Pokémon Sword and Shield are exactly why the detractors remain energized.

 

[Divine Retribution]

There's a lot of hyperbole and generalization going on this last page. I don't think it's fair to judge the entire "anti-Dexit" (if you want to call it that) position based on the unhinged ravings of a few underdeveloped, emotionally unstable manchildren who think sending GameFreak employees death threats is at all a productive way of expressing their misgivings. There aren't just two extreme positions to this issue; it's not either you fully accept and embrace Dexit or you hate Dexit, Sword/Shield, and everything to do with them as well as everyone who enjoys them. I liked Sword/Shield quite a lot; I think they laid important foundations for the Pokemon franchise and I certainly don't have any misgivings with anyone who enjoyed the games, or even anyone who supports Dexit. That being said, I still don't agree that Dexit was a good or necessary thing.

I also see a lot of people talking in very vague terms about the technical aspects of Dexit, and I'm curious if you really have any experience in that area. I will make no claim to be anything in the same ballpark as a professional game developer but I do have a bit of experience porting older models to a new program, and assuming the program is made in a way that allows for it without unnecessary complications, it's really not that difficult or unreasonable. The problem is GameFreak seems to insist on making entirely new models from scratch for every new generation. Would anyone really complain if they simply ported over the old models to new games? Does anyone really care if their favorite Pokemon has an almost indistinguishably different new model that had to be made from scratch? If it was port an old model or simply exclude the Pokemon entirely, which would you choose?

Anyways, I think it's important to remember that this isn't a black-and-white issue and there are plenty of sound arguments on both sides. In fact there really isn't an objectively "correct" side. It ultimately comes down to whether having all Pokemon present in future games is worth the time and resources invested to make it happen versus other things those resources could be used on, which is absolutely a subjective issue that can only be answered subjectively.

 

[Drake Pokétrainer]

I agree that this isn't as black and white as some people make it seem. I'm one of those people who's still very much against the concept of cutting the national dex. Not as in a pokedex per se but not making old mons available. They weren't required for anything in the Alola games either.

Sword and Shield have some huge flaws besides this as well. Very mediocre graphics especially for one of Nintendo's poster child series. Granted, graphics don't make the game, but some textures and a lot of animations (from characters, pokemon and moves) need a lot to be desired.

The story is pretty empty and lackluster. Which isn't a new for pokemon (look at R/G/B/Y and G/S/C) but this is an 8th gen game. The Wild Area feels super empty and way too open (it's one big open valley).

However, the designs of the new pokemon and of the characters are spot on. There's none of the new mons I dislike and there are some absolute gems among them. A lot of the towns are really creative as well. And the DLC is one of the saving graces of these games. The Isle of Armor and especially the Crown Tundra have much more interesting maps than the Wild Area did. Which is a good sign for the future. It shows the devs are learning. Dynamax Adventures are also Raid Battles done right. I absolutely abhor normal Raid Battles (but that is a personal preference).

All in all, I think the main problem Gamefreak had during the development of Sword/Shield were a deadline that was too tight and simply a way too small team for a game like this. They should've hired more people or outsourced some things (like Pokemon animations, Genius Sonority for an instance showed that they could do the animations right for the first 4 generations of pokemon with the Orre games and Battle Revolution).

Hopefully Gamefreak learns from this and uses Sword/Shield as some sort of base to improve from.

As I said before, in the end, I do like Sword/Shield despite its sometimes major flaws. The games are enjoyable, the pokemon are great but they're far from the pinnacle of the series. The DLC does show some hope for the future though.

 

[WishIhadaManafi5]

I agree that this isn't as black and white as some people make it seem. I'm one of those people who's still very much against the concept of cutting the national dex. Not as in a pokedex per se but not making old mons available. They weren't required for anything in the Alola games either.

Sword and Shield have some huge flaws besides this as well. Very mediocre graphics especially for one of Nintendo's poster child series. Granted, graphics don't make the game, but some textures and a lot of animations (from characters, pokemon and moves) need a lot to be desired.

The story is pretty empty and lackluster. Which isn't a new for pokemon (look at R/G/B/Y and G/S/C) but this is an 8th gen game. The Wild Area feels super empty and way too open (it's one big open valley).

However, the designs of the new pokemon and of the characters are spot on. There's none of the new mons I dislike and there are some absolute gems among them. A lot of the towns are really creative as well. And the DLC is one of the saving graces of these games. The Isle of Armor and especially the Crown Tundra have much more interesting maps than the Wild Area did. Which is a good sign for the future. It shows the devs are learning. Dynamax Adventures are also Raid Battles done right. I absolutely abhor normal Raid Battles (but that is a personal preference).

All in all, I think the main problem Gamefreak had during the development of Sword/Shield were a deadline that was too tight and simply a way too small team for a game like this. They should've hired more people or outsourced some things (like Pokemon animations, Genius Sonority for an instance showed that they could do the animations right for the first 4 generations of pokemon with the Orre games and Battle Revolution).

Hopefully Gamefreak learns from this and uses Sword/Shield as some sort of base to improve from.

As I said before, in the end, I do like Sword/Shield despite its sometimes major flaws. The games are enjoyable, the pokemon are great but they're far from the pinnacle of the series. The DLC does show some hope for the future though.

I'm wondering if a lot of the said flaws are due to crunch. Not excusing it, but it makes some sense, looking back at some of the other games in the series that had more time to have things such as the story, graphics, etc., more ironed out.

 

[Spider-Phoenix]

I have no doubt it was time issues.

As for the current topic, I really don't like Dexit because I feel it takes away the liberty of building a team like you want but I guess with how well those games sold, that's most likely to be the new standard going on.

Dexit aside, I feel the games were serviceable if they were very lacking in a lot of places.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

I'm wondering if a lot of the said flaws are due to crunch. Not excusing it, but it makes some sense, looking back at some of the other games in the series that had more time to have things such as the story, graphics, etc., more ironed out.

Um... what? SwSh really didn't have any less development time than past games. The issue is that 3D models and open areas take more time to develop, and thus far they've refused to scale up their workforce or development schedules to compensate. They can't operate like an indie studio like they want to and develop AAA $60 console games, that's like trying to make a Hollywood blockbuster with your friends in your AV club. Game Freak has to make a choice as to how to adapt to the console market, and so far their decision has been to cut corners to stick to the same development practices as before. That's the reason the games are as underwhelming as they are now.

 

[WishIhadaManafi5]

Um... what? SwSh really didn't have any less development time than past games. The issue is that 3D models and open areas take more time to develop, and thus far they've refused to scale up their workforce or development schedules to compensate. They can't operate like an indie studio like they want to and develop AAA $60 console games, that's like trying to make a Hollywood blockbuster with your friends in your AV club. Game Freak has to make a choice as to how to adapt to the console market, and so far their decision has been to cut corners to stick to the same development practices as before. That's the reason the games are as underwhelming as they are now.

We do not know the time management that they may have done. But given that they were split into two teams iirc, some for Sword and Shield and some for that Town game, maybe they were pressed a bit thin and short on a bit of time.

I agree with you on that part. But I wouldn't doubt there was at least some crunch there at least in terms of the main game.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

We do not know the time management that they may have done. But given that they were split into two teams iirc, some for Sword and Shield and some for that Town game, maybe they were pressed a bit thin and short on a bit of time.

I agree with you on that part. But I wouldn't doubt there was at least some crunch there at least in terms of the main game.

It's not just SwSh that's the issue, it's been pretty much every game since XY. The split because of Town might be part of it, but the larger issue is that the modernizations the series has been making are more resource intensive.

 

[WishIhadaManafi5]

It's not just SwSh that's the issue, it's been pretty much every game since XY. The split because of Town might be part of it, but the larger issue is that the modernizations the series has been making are more resource intensive.

Fair enough, noticed some story issues in X and Y as well. But graphics wise, it was still pretty solid. That could be the case too.

 

[Divine Retribution]

I don't think graphics should really be anyone's priority in a Pokemon game anyways. Pokemon has never had cutting edge graphics, and it's the kind of game that really doesn't need them. Plenty of other games rely on their good graphics (or at least, a perception of them having good graphics...) to cover up gaping flaws in their mechanics, storyline, etc. I can think of at least one example you've all heard of and most of you have played. For Pokemon, it's always been the other way around; unique gameplay at the trade-off of mediocre graphics that serve their purpose well enough and nothing more. You can more or less tell what everything around you is and not much more.

I think trying to bring Pokemon up to the AAA standard graphics-wise really isn't a good decision from any perspective; like I said the series simply wasn't built around graphics as a strong point. Instead, putting those resources towards developing better storylines (which recently have been lacking), new mechanics like Max Raids and Dynamax Adventures, and dare I say including previous Pokemon who might otherwise have been excluded, are all ways to provide more enjoyment for most consumers of the game (and therefore more incentive to buy the game in the first place, and more money for GameFreak and co).

I also think crunch can only be blamed for so much, and at the end of the day, somebody is responsible for the crunch. It might be (probably is) the higher-up executives at GameFreak who are ultimately responsible, but crunch isn't something that just happens or is unavoidable. Crunch is an inevitable byproduct of inefficiency and poor decision making in the development process, and usually it's not the people doing the grunt work who are to blame.

 

[janejane6178]

I don't think graphics should really be anyone's priority in a Pokemon game anyways. Pokemon has never had cutting edge graphics, and it's the kind of game that really doesn't need them. Plenty of other games rely on their good graphics (or at least, a perception of them having good graphics...) to cover up gaping flaws in their mechanics, storyline, etc. I can think of at least one example you've all heard of and most of you have played. For Pokemon, it's always been the other way around; unique gameplay at the trade-off of mediocre graphics that serve their purpose well enough and nothing more. You can more or less tell what everything around you is and not much more.

I think trying to bring Pokemon up to the AAA standard graphics-wise really isn't a good decision from any perspective; like I said the series simply wasn't built around graphics as a strong point. Instead, putting those resources towards developing better storylines (which recently have been lacking), new mechanics like Max Raids and Dynamax Adventures, and dare I say including previous Pokemon who might otherwise have been excluded, are all ways to provide more enjoyment for most consumers of the game (and therefore more incentive to buy the game in the first place, and more money for GameFreak and co).

I also think crunch can only be blamed for so much, and at the end of the day, somebody is responsible for the crunch. It might be (probably is) the higher-up executives at GameFreak who are ultimately responsible, but crunch isn't something that just happens or is unavoidable. Crunch is an inevitable byproduct of inefficiency and poor decision making in the development process, and usually it's not the people doing the grunt work who are to blame.

What is crunch

 

[Divine Retribution]

What is crunch

Crunch time, basically the period of time towards the end of the development phase when upper management realizes they aren't projected to meet their deadlines and so they force the developers under them to cram as many half-finished features as they can into the final product before it gets released.

 

[janejane6178]

Crunch time, basically the period of time towards the end of the development phase when upper management realizes they aren't projected to meet their deadlines and so they force the developers under them to cram as many half-finished features as they can into the final product before it gets released.

Sounds exactly what happened to Swsh haha

 

[Spider-Phoenix]

Well since Town was released and end up being a commercial failure I hope they'll use their full team for the next games.