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Are you fine with the way games are?

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
I don't think graphics should really be anyone's priority in a Pokemon game anyways. Pokemon has never had cutting edge graphics, and it's the kind of game that really doesn't need them. Plenty of other games rely on their good graphics (or at least, a perception of them having good graphics...) to cover up gaping flaws in their mechanics, storyline, etc. I can think of at least one example you've all heard of and most of you have played. For Pokemon, it's always been the other way around; unique gameplay at the trade-off of mediocre graphics that serve their purpose well enough and nothing more. You can more or less tell what everything around you is and not much more.

I think trying to bring Pokemon up to the AAA standard graphics-wise really isn't a good decision from any perspective; like I said the series simply wasn't built around graphics as a strong point. Instead, putting those resources towards developing better storylines (which recently have been lacking), new mechanics like Max Raids and Dynamax Adventures, and dare I say including previous Pokemon who might otherwise have been excluded, are all ways to provide more enjoyment for most consumers of the game (and therefore more incentive to buy the game in the first place, and more money for GameFreak and co).

Well high quality graphics is only part of the puzzle as far as AAA development. I agree that to some degree they won't ever have super high quality graphics with so many Pokemon to animate, but some of the graphical issues like those infamous trees definitely need to be cleaned up. Higher quality textures should definitely be at the top of their list of graphical improvements for next gen. But it's the content I'm more concerned about when it comes to Pokemon becoming a AAA game. People do not spend $60 on a game for it to be a glorified mobile game that you just blow through in a few days and put down, console adventure games have generally been grand, open ended affairs that you can immerse yourself in for hours at a time and not put down for weeks. For Pokemon to really be accepted as a console game, the content cutting needs to stop. The games needs large map to immerse themselves in and explore (which they're already improving in thankfully) and they need a large quantity and variety of side activities for players to engage in to keep them playing (this is where they need the most work). The games' philosophy of being quick, streamlined affairs designed for mobile players with short attention spans just isn't compatible with the console market, console gamers generally want the exact opposite type of experience.

I also think crunch can only be blamed for so much, and at the end of the day, somebody is responsible for the crunch. It might be (probably is) the higher-up executives at GameFreak who are ultimately responsible, but crunch isn't something that just happens or is unavoidable. Crunch is an inevitable byproduct of inefficiency and poor decision making in the development process, and usually it's not the people doing the grunt work who are to blame.

My sentiment exactly. Game Freak needs a better understanding of how much time and resources are required to make a quality console game to plan the games' development cycle appropriately. And that falls on the executives. It's probably someone who doesn't know anything about game development and just wants to push the games out the door on a regular basis to sell merchandise. Considering how insanely profitable Pokemon's merchandising arm is that's the most logical explanation.
 

janejane6178

Kaleido Star FOREVER in my heart <3
Well high quality graphics is only part of the puzzle as far as AAA development. I agree that to some degree they won't ever have super high quality graphics with so many Pokemon to animate, but some of the graphical issues like those infamous trees definitely need to be cleaned up. Higher quality textures should definitely be at the top of their list of graphical improvements for next gen. But it's the content I'm more concerned about when it comes to Pokemon becoming a AAA game. People do not spend $60 on a game for it to be a glorified mobile game that you just blow through in a few days and put down, console adventure games have generally been grand, open ended affairs that you can immerse yourself in for hours at a time and not put down for weeks. For Pokemon to really be accepted as a console game, the content cutting needs to stop. The games needs large map to immerse themselves in and explore (which they're already improving in thankfully) and they need a large quantity and variety of side activities for players to engage in to keep them playing (this is where they need the most work). The games' philosophy of being quick, streamlined affairs designed for mobile players with short attention spans just isn't compatible with the console market, console gamers generally want the exact opposite type of experience.



My sentiment exactly. Game Freak needs a better understanding of how much time and resources are required to make a quality console game to plan the games' development cycle appropriately. And that falls on the executives. It's probably someone who doesn't know anything about game development and just wants to push the games out the door on a regular basis to sell merchandise. Considering how insanely profitable Pokemon's merchandising arm is that's the most logical explanation.
Exactly, the most fun thing in pokemon for me is thr main story and walkthrough and not thr post game facilities. Its so frustorating that the main story is so short and can be completed in like 2 days.
When first playing pokemon Shield I remember actually stopping my self from playing too much in a row, so the game doesnt end so soon.... annoying.
 

Ophie

Salingerian Phony
All in all, I think the main problem Gamefreak had during the development of Sword/Shield were a deadline that was too tight and simply a way too small team for a game like this. They should've hired more people or outsourced some things (like Pokemon animations, Genius Sonority for an instance showed that they could do the animations right for the first 4 generations of pokemon with the Orre games and Battle Revolution).

Something to bear in mind is that the larger a development team, the more difficult it is to manage. Not only do supervisaors have to split their tim between more people and that there has to be more levels of management, badly run large teams, especially in entertainment, often run into "too many cooks" problems. It is very possible that there is nobody at Game Freak capable of managing a team any larger than the one for Sword and Shield. It is also very possible that they DID have a larger development team (the credits are pretty long) but didn't know how to manage it. It's also not simply a matter of hiring the right people--they have to be people who understand the process, know how to manage the larger team well, and be trusted not to spill secrets. (I'd bet Pokémon, as a franchise, has some very long NDAs.)

Many of you may not have heard of a movie called Twice Upon a Time, but a lot of big name people in movies and animation, including George Lucas, Henry Selick (The Nightmare Before Christmas, Coraline, Kubo and the Two Strings), Andrew Stanton (Toy Story, Finding Nemo), and at least a dozen others of comparable clout worked on it. You'd think this would be a masterpiece, and it was indeed very well-liked among those who saw it--but it was helmed by two people who had previously only worked on small arthouse films or animated shorts. This was their first big budget project, and it would be their last, because while they were able to get a finished project out the door, there was an absolutely insane amount of dysfunction during and after production. They both wound up in over their heads trying to make a blockbuster Hollywood movie, and screenings are very rare nowadays because of it. (This includes streaming the movie over the Internet, as those two hate the other so much that they'll stop other people from seeing the movie.) They both went back to working small projects, which they were better at.

Sounds exactly what happened to Swsh haha

Crunch is something that is tragically very prevalent in video game production. This is particularly so when a small studio winds up with a big hit and has to scale up their resources for subsequent games. Anthem is a game released in 2019 that was uncharacteristically empty for a game from Bioware. A current example is Cyberpunk 2077, which was delayed by a few weeks due to undergoing as much crunch as they could take and still not being able to finish development. Even Nintendo, (in)famous for delaying projects, undergoes crunch, which happens with every Smash Bros. game and every Legend of Zelda game.
 

TwilightBlade

Well-Known Member
Sounds exactly what happened to Swsh haha

Yeah but they most likely already had plans for the DLC packages so they probably weren't worried about unfinished stuff in the actual games since they knew they could fix any issues later on for an extra price. It's all business which is the norm sure, except that in Gen 8 is feels more unapologetic than before or at least it does to me. :[
 

janejane6178

Kaleido Star FOREVER in my heart <3
Yeah but they most likely already had plans for the DLC packages so they probably weren't worried about unfinished stuff in the actual games since they knew they could fix any issues later on for an extra price. It's all business which is the norm sure, except that in Gen 8 is feels more unapologetic than before or at least it does to me. :[
I suck it up cuz I love Pokemon and its an important aspect of my life. Otherwise, I wouldnt buy their products cuz they are very greedy.
 

Bolt the Cat

Bringing the Thunder
Exactly, the most fun thing in pokemon for me is thr main story and walkthrough and not thr post game facilities. Its so frustorating that the main story is so short and can be completed in like 2 days.
When first playing pokemon Shield I remember actually stopping my self from playing too much in a row, so the game doesnt end so soon.... annoying.

No, I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. I would like a longer main campaign, yes, but it's more the side activities that need to come back, the ones we have now are too few and too shallow. Bring back things like Contests, Secret Bases, the Battle Frontier, etc. Make things like Poke Jobs actually engaging activities instead of just "lol just pick some Pokemon and leave them alone for a while".
 

janejane6178

Kaleido Star FOREVER in my heart <3
No, I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. I would like a longer main campaign, yes, but it's more the side activities that need to come back, the ones we have now are too few and too shallow. Bring back things like Contests, Secret Bases, the Battle Frontier, etc. Make things like Poke Jobs actually engaging activities instead of just "lol just pick some Pokemon and leave them alone for a while".
Oh, that's good too. I loved contests. I hated this pictures thing we have in Alola and didnt even bother to try Poke Jobs..
 

UltimateNinja

Praying for the holy relics
I am okay with the current games IF they are willing to put effort after the release and not rush into the next generations. Speaking of SwSh, as "fine" as the DLC was, the main game need more work and before they didn't release some kind of definite game, preferable sequels, I am not okay with rushing to gen 9 or even DP remakes if that's the only pair of games left for this gen. That's why I always scream for longer gens, not only for development time for newer gens but also to leave the current region in a state where I can say "thats the best they could've made with the region".
 

ChandelureDetour

Well-Known Member
I loved the game so much! The game has humongous flaws though. In my opinion the Dex cut hurt Pokémon the most. First off, I want to speak of the positives that should stay. Convenience for raising Pokémon, following Pokémon, Wild areas (Mostly isle on armor and crown tundra), Pokémon on the over world, Dynamax raids being fun and creative, great cast (Some were way worst then others), great soundtrack direction. I would want to point out that Bede and the wolves have fleshed out and fulfilling arcs compared to the rest of the cast who are lacking.

On the other side of the coin is significantly sadder. Good plot at beginning which turns horrible at the end, most characters fall apart in terms of writing towards the end, singles dynamax battles are OP, horrible villains such as when Swordword and Shieldbert have the most plot relevancy you know you did something wrong, bad animations on certain parts, routes are to short, map design and art direction team failed later in the game, Hop, Dexit.

Conclusion: Fix Dexit and the story to make this a great Pokémon game. I could (sorta) live with bad map design and the decent graphics.

Hold up! I’m not finished yet! Dlc fixed a lot of problems with from the main game. Imo the Dlc is better then the main game. I like the map design and characters more.
 

janejane6178

Kaleido Star FOREVER in my heart <3
I loved the game so much! The game has humongous flaws though. In my opinion the Dex cut hurt Pokémon the most. First off, I want to speak of the positives that should stay. Convenience for raising Pokémon, following Pokémon, Wild areas (Mostly isle on armor and crown tundra), Pokémon on the over world, Dynamax raids being fun and creative, great cast (Some were way worst then others), great soundtrack direction. I would want to point out that Bede and the wolves have fleshed out and fulfilling arcs compared to the rest of the cast who are lacking.

On the other side of the coin is significantly sadder. Good plot at beginning which turns horrible at the end, most characters fall apart in terms of writing towards the end, singles dynamax battles are OP, horrible villains such as when Swordword and Shieldbert have the most plot relevancy you know you did something wrong, bad animations on certain parts, routes are to short, map design and art direction team failed later in the game, Hop, Dexit.

Conclusion: Fix Dexit and the story to make this a great Pokémon game. I could (sorta) live with bad map design and the decent graphics.

Hold up! I’m not finished yet! Dlc fixed a lot of problems with from the main game. Imo the Dlc is better then the main game. I like the map design and characters more.
Its like they were short on time and was like: Oh we didnt add a last route before the champion? Ok lets add route 10 real quick...
 

ChandelureDetour

Well-Known Member
Its like they were short on time and was like: Oh we didnt add a last route before the champion? Ok lets add route 10 real quick...

Haha! I think that too! It felt like artists planned gorgeous areas such as the Fairy forest, that desert town, that cold town, etc. It feels like building those were higher priority then Routes. Meanwhile characters and Pokémon seem to take priority over story. I get similar vibes from Kalos in this aspect. At least Kalos had a planned villain and great map though. (Kalos has random ice cities for example.) Galar suffered from terrible story and map (debatably graphics).
 

Aduro

Mt.BtlMaster
Honestly, they've mostly been dissatisfying for me since XY. There are so many problems in Pokemon that I would never accept in a new RPG. There are four main issues.

1. The AI Trainers are completely stupid. This means that there's no challenge in the actual campaign, whatsoever.
2. There is almost a complete lack of anything to do except battling. Even in the DLC there's barely anything but a couple of gimmicky battles. After they got rid of HMs Game Freak wound up giving us corridors instead of dungeons.
3. You have absolutely no agency in how the story pans out at all. Almost conversation is just people explaining stuff to you.
4. Too many things rely on repetitive grinding. This is actually much better than it was in previous gens. But I still don't want to have to spend an afternoon throwing candies into a den to get the mon I need, before spending hours breeding one with the right IV, before EV training it. I don't want to do all that stuff to build a team.

I might buy another pokemon game if they actually try to fix these issues. But for now, it just feels like a game built to encourage its players to spend as much time as possible doing things that are not challenging or exiting.

Competitive pokemon is more accessible to play and entertaining to master than its ever been. But that's the only enjoyable thing about the main games.

This is the biggest video game franchise in the world. Making everything so straightforward and casual feels like lazy incompetence.
 

ChandelureDetour

Well-Known Member
1. The AI Trainers are completely stupid. This means that there's no challenge in the actual campaign, whatsoever.

Counterpoint! SM & USUM fixed the problem of a easy campaign by having smarter Ai and EV in opponent Pokémon. Exp share is much more vital than Xy and SwSh.

2. There is almost a complete lack of anything to do except battling. Even in the DLC there's barely anything but a couple of gimmicky battles. After they got rid of HMs Game Freak wound up giving us corridors instead of dungeons.

I agree with the lack of activities, but it is a RPG so only so much it can do before silly and pointless mini games like Alola photo club. I would also agree if if XY and SM did not have pretty long and enjoyable dungeons. Also all dungeons are linear in Pokémon. I never got lost for more than a minute in any of them. (I played Gen 4 5 6 7 8 and remakes of Gen 1 2 3)

3. You have absolutely no agency in how the story pans out at all. Almost conversation is just people explaining stuff to you.

I don’t understand this at all. We always followed paths the characters told us. Go complete a Pokédex, oh no lakes were bombed check it out for me, deliver this letter to my son, etc. I do agree it would be more enjoyable if we had more say in this story. Screw yo son I’m gonna catch Rayquaza!

4. Too many things rely on repetitive grinding. This is actually much better than it was in previous gens. But I still don't want to have to spend an afternoon throwing candies into a den to get the mon I need, before spending hours breeding one with the right IV, before EV training it. I don't want to do all that stuff to build a team.

Why even make right IVs anymore? Leveling Pokémon to 100 is extremely easy compared to every game so far. We have Bottle caps and a Exp charm with extremely generous Raid dens who gave me more Exp Candy then I need for a whole team. EV training is a hassle still though. Only cost 300,000 Pokedollars though which takes a single round of the Pokémon league with Gigantimax Meowth and Amulet coin.
 

Divine Retribution

Conquistador de pan
EV training can be done in about 5 minutes using Pokejobs and the time advance exploit. It's sort of cheaty, but then again the time advance exploit is widely abused for a variety of other uses as well (finding HA/shiny raids, leveling entire boxes of Pokemon with Pokejobs, etc).
 

ChandelureDetour

Well-Known Member
EV training can be done in about 5 minutes using Pokejobs and the time advance exploit. It's sort of cheaty, but then again the time advance exploit is widely abused for a variety of other uses as well (finding HA/shiny raids, leveling entire boxes of Pokemon with Pokejobs, etc).

No way! I never knew that was a thing. I figured it only worked on Max Raids. Thank you!
 

Divine Retribution

Conquistador de pan
No way! I never knew that was a thing. I figured it only worked on Max Raids. Thank you!
Yeah, it advances the game's clock by a day, so it instantly completes all Pokejobs you sent out before performing it. You can send your Pokemon to an EV academy with the respective Power item attached and it will instantly gain 252 EVs in that stat. You can also send Pokemon on normal Pokejobs for experience (up to 30 at a time), making it an efficient way to train large numbers of Pokemon at once.
 

Ophie

Salingerian Phony
Haha! I think that too! It felt like artists planned gorgeous areas such as the Fairy forest, that desert town, that cold town, etc. It feels like building those were higher priority then Routes. Meanwhile characters and Pokémon seem to take priority over story. I get similar vibes from Kalos in this aspect. At least Kalos had a planned villain and great map though. (Kalos has random ice cities for example.) Galar suffered from terrible story and map (debatably graphics).

This is an issue that can be seen in Game Freak's entire output too. They care very, very much about the visual design of things and small details, but they're not quite as good at programming. It wasn't quite a big deal in the 90s and 00s because game programming was simpler back then, but it's become much more complex now, and they don't really have many programmers who are up to the task.

3. You have absolutely no agency in how the story pans out at all. Almost conversation is just people explaining stuff to you.

This is pretty standard with JRPGs. They tend to have elaborate stories involving plot points falling into place with other things, and Japanese RPG players are very used to linear narratives. In other words, Japanese players play RPGs to be told a story, not to make or influence one. The Shin Megami Tensei games are the closest there is, with a morality system, but it's trinary, it's usually pretty clear which is which, and there is only a single branching point somewhere in the late game that determines your ending.

The Mass Effect games, for instance, failed to take off in Japan because they were confused. A common criticism was that they were given too many decisions, and they had a hard time figuring out which answers were the "right" ones.
 

ChandelureDetour

Well-Known Member
This is an issue that can be seen in Game Freak's entire output too. They care very, very much about the visual design of things and small details, but they're not quite as good at programming. It wasn't quite a big deal in the 90s and 00s because game programming was simpler back then, but it's become much more complex now, and they don't really have many programmers who are up to the task.

Gamefreak definitely suffers from programming issues, I doubt anyone doubts that. To be fair though it’s a very common thing that creative universes suffer from due to planning great scenarios, then actually getting everyone there. You can find this in other game series, to movies, and even books. Planning a large world is definitely challenging. Anyone who succeeds at that is very impressive imo.
 

Leonhart

Imagineer
TwilightBlade said:
Yeah but they most likely already had plans for the DLC packages so they probably weren't worried about unfinished stuff in the actual games since they knew they could fix any issues later on for an extra price. It's all business which is the norm sure, except that in Gen 8 is feels more unapologetic than before or at least it does to me. :[

I don't like the concept of downloadable content, especially when it comes with a cost. But I figure that it's still slightly less greedy than Game Freak simply releasing a third version of Shield and Sword with a few new features included and a higher price tag than the expansion packs we've received.
 

RedBlastoise

Cerulean Blues
Not really I haven't liked the games as much beginning in generation 4 but I stuck with them until I lost interest completely early this year. I barely played Sword because the game got boring for me. Luckily I didn't actually buy the game myself so at least I didn't have to spend any money.
 
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