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Are you happy that the Masters 8 just consisting of Champions?

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Sham

The Guardian of Ruin and Birth
Barry actually has the same VA as Raihan (and Flint in Masters funnily enough) Tatsuhisa Suzuki but lost a lot of his roles after rumors of an affair with his wife. For his most recent role as Raihan, he played up until episode 45.
Damn. LiSA does sing some good openings and seems very nice. Guess we’re never getting Barry again.
 

satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
1) Gary decided to stop battling competitively after Johto League. Not after Kanto. Even if he did, he could absolutely go back to it if he wanted to. There are 100 possible ways a convincing scenario could've been written. Just Like Alain entered the Kalos League Primarily to battle Ash and to get Mega Evolution Energy for Chespin, maybe Gary felt in order to research Legendary Pokemon like Mewtwo better, he'd need to get stronger so why not start battling competitively again?
This is just your fantasy head canon. Gary hasn’t even shown an internal conflict or interest in wanting to become stronger. Not even for research purposes.
2) Are you serious about Misty lol? Did you even see the rematch between Misty and Ash during the Sun and Moon series?
Yes I have. It was impressive and one of the most stunning animated battles throughout the anime.
If anything, Misty arguably gave Ash the strongest fight out of all his travel companions ("Until of course, Iris returned in Journeys").
Not even. That battle was a 1v1 too. A nice battle but not the strongest.
Everything you say about Iris could very well be said to Misty.
No, it cannot. Completely different characters with completely different outcomes.
Yes one could argue Iris in general was better and was shown to be much more talented (No Argument there). That said, the only reason she's a Regional Champion is because of the tie to her games "PERIOD".
You could say that but regardless, it was foreshadowed throughout Best Wishes that she would climb up to higher ranks and level up her status.
She would not have been written as a Regional Champion if it weren't for the same. Strictly from an anime perspective, Trip narratively had a greater chance of being the Regional Champion given the fact that he was written as Ash's main Rival who was talented and had strong aspirations to defeat Alder.
This comment is hilarious. You lost me on that. Trip may have said that he wanted to become Champion and defeat his grandfather but he showed way more interest capturing photographs. All Trip did for the most part was enter Don George Tournaments and collected the badges that he needed to enter the Isshu League. For a main rival, he didn’t pull up much of a fight in the League and lost. He lost to a BW Ash that lost to an IDIOT!
The simple fact is, if Iris could be written in as the Regional Champion due to her tie with the games, the exact same could be done with Gary.
No it doesn’t. Blue =/= Gary.
I mean, they don't even have to make Gary the champion but they could've still included him in the PWC if they really wanted.

In fact, most people actually expected this and even thought that Gary was going to be the one who defeats Ash in the Hyper Class.
You don't need to take part in the PWC just to win. Like for example, Ash's motivation in the PWC was not to be the Strongest Trainer or win the title, it was mostly to challenge the Strongest Trainer in an official battle.
Ash wants to challenge the strongest Trainer (Dande) in an official battle which also includes battling and defeating countless other powerful Trainers. Ash has proclaimed this himself many times and has a strong interest in getting stronger. This doesn’t apply to Gary.
Gary could've entered the PWC to get stronger for personal reasons.

Your whole point about claiming Gary shouldn't be in the PWC cause of something said back after the Johto League, is just plain silly.
I never wrote this. You’re mistaking me for @Locormus .

I just don't see Iris being above Gary.
Gary is strong but Iris is stronger. It’s not that hard to compute.
Also, tired of Cynthia.
Leave my ice cream licking Queen alone. This whole PWC would be illegitimate if Cynthia wasn’t listed.
 
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ShinyCharyZard

Too old for your rubbish..
The one thing I do wish is that they’d just advertised the Masters 8 as the Champions League (you know, the one Cynthia spoke of), since now that they’re doing this, the idea of a Champions League further down the line seems obsolete..
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
Now, see this is where I have to sound the alarm because you had a point until this.

Okay you’re really dragging this at this point. How did Trip have a better chance of defeating Alder when he lost every single tournament (besides literally the last one) relatively early but Iris won the very first one? How the F is Trip more likely to become regional Champion but was immediately knocked out in the league? This man was knocked out by Cilan and Bianca relatively early. He got knocked out in his first matches (like the Unova league) and lost early in those tournaments. How sway? He never even made it into the semi finals in none of those tournaments. Explain how this makes sense.

You’re arguing that her ties to the game influenced her becoming the Champion. Nobody is arguing against that. What’s being argued is that you’re simultaneously trying to discredit Iris for being Champion because she’s tied to the game but uplifting Gary like this makes sense. You have cognitive dissonance. It’s possible that Iris COULD of been the regional Champion based on what we’ve seen and admit she became Champion because of the games. Nobody is denying this. In fact you’re arguing BLUE’S role in the game should make Gary Champion. What’s the difference?

You’re arguing about hypothetical power levels because Gary defeated Ash’s Pikachu way back in BF as if that means something and as @Panky.. said that means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things because he’s a glass canon. The entire point of Gary winning that battle was to get Ash to express interest in Sinnoh.

Misty was never on Iris’ level and this was based on their arcs during the series they were on. And this isn’t a “Iris was better than Misty thing” every single girl after Misty was stronger. Granted this is because of how OS was written but until SM Misty wasn’t the best. He wasn’t arguing that Misty was weak now, he was comparing OS Misty to BW Iris which you insisted on doing. Now you’re moving goal post and comparing SM Misty to BW Iris.
1) You seem to have your head stuck far up a fictional characters ass. Whether I like or dislike Iris is besides the point.
NOT ONCE DID I SAY "GARY CAN BE ADDED TO THE PWC OR BE MADE Kanto Champion" WHILE IRIS SHOULDN'T HAVE. Your obsession with the character is making you rephrase that point over and over.
What I said is, there is precedence for adding Gary to the PWC and even making him the PWC champion based on how Iris was made Champion.

You're the one who keeps making it about me hating Iris and Lifting Gary when that isn't the case. If Gary was randomly made Kanto Champion and brought to the PWC and assume Iris wasn't mentioned at all in Journey's, I would have just as much of a problem.
The simple point I'm making is the fact that this was done with Iris means they could have just as very well done it with Gary.

2) So you use hypothetical power about Iris to justify why she reached a level of Regional Champion well ahead of Ash despite the two at the very minimum (being equal in Unova and vastly inferior to regional champions at the time). But now you use some hypothetical power nonsense and other similar arguments in case of Gary? Hyprocrite much?

3) Regarding Misty, the simple point is she was a type expert tied to a gym. The same was the case for Iris from an anime perspective. As for her SM strength, the previous poster seemed to suggest that Misty showed no growth or improvement as a trainer and the writer made her out as someone who just "Swims with water pokemon". When in reality, they did show progression in her character, and the battle against Ash she had was arguably the toughest battle Ash had against a companion ("Until Journeys").

So in other words, if Iris wasn't champion in the games, she simply wouldn't have been champion in the anime. There is really no distinction between Misty and her that way. Like you said, Iris was definitely the stronger companion but this also has to do with the progression of the series and Misty having the disadvantage of being an early companion. That said, the writers did show Misty getting stronger as a Water Pokemon Trainer and it would've been no different with Iris ("Assuming the BW2 Games didn't exist). She would've been a much stronger Dragon Type trainer who would've challenged Ash.

There would be next to no chance to make Iris a Regional Champion especially when the main protagonist was shown to be vastly inferior to them until now.
Further evidence for this is Alain. He is an anime exclusive trainer, first regular trainer who beat an E4 member on screen, the first rival to win a league, first rival who Ash has never beat etc. Yet he still wasn't made a Regional Champion and Diantha was retained as one.
So no way in hell BW Iris would have been made regional champion if it weren't for the games. And if we are creating links between anime characters and the games, this could very well apply to Blue and Gary.
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
This is just your fantasy head canon. Gary hasn’t even shown an internal conflict or interest in wanting to become stronger. Not even for research purposes.

Yes I have. It was impressive and one of the most stunning animated battles throughout the anime.

Not even. That battle was a 1v1 too. A nice battle but not the strongest.

No, it cannot. Completely different characters with completely different outcomes.

You could say that but regardless, it was foreshadowed throughout Best Wishes that she would climb up to higher ranks and level up her status.

This comment is hilarious. You lost me on that. Trip may have said that he wanted to become Champion and defeat his grandfather but he showed way more interest capturing photographs. All Trip did for the most part was enter Don George Tournaments and collected the badges that he needed to enter the Isshu League. For a main rival, he didn’t pull up much of a fight in the League and lost. He lost to a BW Ash that lost to an IDIOT!

No it doesn’t. Blue =/= Gary.

Ash wants to challenge the strongest Trainer (Dande) in an official battle which also includes battling and defeating countless other powerful Trainers. Ash has proclaimed this himself many times and has a strong interest in getting stronger. This doesn’t apply to Gary.

I never wrote this. You’re mistaking me for @Locormus .


Gary is strong but Iris is stronger. It’s not that hard to compute.

Leave my ice cream licking Queen alone. This whole PWC would be illegitimate if Cynthia wasn’t listed.
1) Gary literally insults Goh for his weakness as a trainer and tells Goh that he wants Ash's companion to be strong.

2) Which companion put up a stronger battle against Ash than S&M Misty? (Until Journey's ofc where Ash battled Iris).

3) Yes it can. Outside of the games, both are type experts connected to a gym.

4) No way in hell. Iris at her max was shown to be relative to Ash in Unova. And Ash was shown to be vastly inferior to Regional Champions and the same would extend to Iris. In Fact, Ash was still shown to be vastly inferior to Regional Champions Until Journey's. No way in hell would Iris have been regional champion if it weren't for the games. Alain was a far more promising character with the possibility of this based on feats (And he's also Anime exclusive). Yet, Diantha was still retained as the Kalos champion.

5) Iris is obviously stronger than Gary. Not one place did I even argue or say that otherwise. The simple fact is, if Iris could be written as the Regional Champion and part of the PWC. So could Gary. There are more than enough reasons justifying the same.

The only real point you have is the comment Gary made back after the Silver Conference to not Compete Competitively. That said, there was different motivations for joining the PWC. It's not just to win the title. Like Alain's example back in the Lumiose Conference and now for some reason he even joined the PWC.

In conclusion
1) Writers are linking anime characters to their game characters. (This was done with Iris).
2) Winning the PWC title is not the only reason to take part in the PWC.

So yes, Gary could've been written as the Kanto Champ or even just a PWC contestant if they wanted.
 

Sham

The Guardian of Ruin and Birth
1) You seem to have your head stuck far up a fictional characters ass. Whether I like or dislike Iris is besides the point.
NOT ONCE DID I SAY "GARY CAN BE ADDED TO THE PWC OR BE MADE Kanto Champion" WHILE IRIS SHOULDN'T HAVE. Your obsession with the character is making you rephrase that point over and over.
What I said is, there is precedence for adding Gary to the PWC and even making him the PWC champion based on how Iris was made Champion.

You're the one who keeps making it about me hating Iris and Lifting Gary when that isn't the case. If Gary was randomly made Kanto Champion and brought to the PWC and assume Iris wasn't mentioned at all in Journey's, I would have just as much of a problem.
The simple point I'm making is the fact that this was done with Iris means they could have just as very well done it with Gary.

2) So you use hypothetical power about Iris to justify why she reached a level of Regional Champion well ahead of Ash despite the two at the very minimum (being equal in Unova and vastly inferior to regional champions at the time). But now you use some hypothetical power nonsense and other similar arguments in case of Gary? Hyprocrite much?

3) Regarding Misty, the simple point is she was a type expert tied to a gym. The same was the case for Iris from an anime perspective. As for her SM strength, the previous poster seemed to suggest that Misty showed no growth or improvement as a trainer and the writer made her out as someone who just "Swims with water pokemon". When in reality, they did show progression in her character, and the battle against Ash she had was arguably the toughest battle Ash had against a companion ("Until Journeys").

So in other words, if Iris wasn't champion in the games, she simply wouldn't have been champion in the anime. There is really no distinction between Misty and her that way. Like you said, Iris was definitely the stronger companion but this also has to do with the progression of the series and Misty having the disadvantage of being an early companion. That said, the writers did show Misty getting stronger as a Water Pokemon Trainer and it would've been no different with Iris ("Assuming the BW2 Games didn't exist). She would've been a much stronger Dragon Type trainer who would've challenged Ash.

There would be next to no chance to make Iris a Regional Champion especially when the main protagonist was shown to be vastly inferior to them until now.
Further evidence for this is Alain. He is an anime exclusive trainer, first regular trainer who beat an E4 member on screen, the first rival to win a league, first rival who Ash has never beat etc. Yet he still wasn't made a Regional Champion and Diantha was retained as one.
So no way in hell BW Iris would have been made regional champion if it weren't for the games. And if we are creating links between anime characters and the games, this could very well apply to Blue and Gary.
I ain’t ready to go over all of this sir and I’m not reading any of this. You lost me when you said Trip is more of a prodigy than she is and she should of never had the chance of beating him compared to Trip. Trip should of defeated Alder. You should move along with him being more “deserving” of being Champion than she is

The same fictional character that has you upset and you’ve been arguing about over and over?

Every person here is obsessed? Your ridckoius (and yes it’s ridckoius) is getting called out on all sides. Clearly I’m not the only person who notices you uplifting Gary and downgrading Iris. You even went as far as to say that she’s worse than Trip. Anyway that’s about it.
You must resort to personal attacks because at this point you can’t argue any points. You also (when another conversation like this happens) went over the whole “obsession” thing when I called out your other weird argument in another thread. You said something dumb, got called out on it and now you’re behaving like a child and now throwing tantrums. I would quote literally everything you’ve said here proving you did say all of that but your argument is now voided
 
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satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
2) So you use hypothetical power about Iris to justify why she reached a level of Regional Champion well ahead of Ash despite the two at the very minimum (being equal in Unova and vastly inferior to regional champions at the time).
You say this but then later on in this same message, you write:
There would be next to no chance to make Iris a Regional Champion especially when the main protagonist was shown to be vastly inferior to them until now.
Make up your mind.
But now you use some hypothetical power nonsense and other similar arguments in case of Gary? Hyprocrite much?
Hypocritical much when you used the exact same power nonsense of saying Gary beat Ash’s Pikachu back in Battle Frontier to justify Gary eventually becoming Champion while in the same breath, continuously writes about there is next to no chance of Iris being a regional Chanpion because of Iris being vastly inferior to the regional Champions during her run.
3) Regarding Misty, the simple point is she was a type expert tied to a gym. The same was the case for Iris from an anime perspective.
In the anime, Iris wasn’t tied to a Gym. She didn’t even pursue being a Gym Leader, only wanting to defeat Drayden, the Opelucid City Gym Leader. Also, Iris isn’t a type expert. She was a rookie and is still working towards her dream of becoming Dragon Master. If she was a type expert, she would have more/only Dragon Type Pokemon on her team and they would’ve actually obeyed her.
As for her SM strength, the previous poster seemed to suggest that Misty showed no growth or improvement as a trainer and the writer made her out as someone who just "Swims with water pokemon"
No I didn’t (and that swimming comment was true in a joking way.) Not once have I said that. All I wrote was that we barely saw her train her Pokémon. But in that same message you wrote: From an anime perspective, there was literally nothing that suggested at the end of the series that Iris was on her way of becoming the Regional Champion.
So in other words, if Iris wasn't champion in the games, she simply wouldn't have been champion in the anime. ("Assuming the BW2 Games didn't exist).
(“Assuming that a Gen 1er became the lead writer in the anime, Gary would’ve came back as Kanto Champion.”)
Yet he still wasn't made a Regional Champion and Diantha was retained as one.
Because Alan didn’t pursue battling Diantha for the Champion title.
And if we are creating links between anime characters and the games, this could very well apply to Blue and Gary.
It doesn’t apply when the writers could’ve made Gary Kanto Champion a long time ago but refused to. And there’s distinction between anime characters and their game counterparts. They’re not exactly the same and are treated and handled as different characters.

1) Gary literally insults Goh for his weakness as a trainer and tells Goh that he wants Ash's companion to be strong.
Because he wants Go to get stronger. That’s motivation for Go. What rival wants an easy target that doesn’t present a challenge?
2) Which companion put up a stronger battle against Ash than S&M Misty? (Until Journey's ofc where Ash battled Iris).
Alan. May. Possibly Serena for her invincible DEM energy. At least those were full battles and not 1v1 or unofficial.
4) No way in hell. Iris at her max was shown to be relative to Ash in Unova. And Ash was shown to be vastly inferior to Regional Champions and the same would extend to Iris.
You say this as though we didn’t see Iris beat Ash in a tournament. Or she wasn’t shown to be a battle prodigy. She had an 100 battle winning streak before she could even become an actual Pokémon Trainer, she went toe to toe with the likes of Cynthia & Claire as Trainers, and various other Dragon type Pokémon by her own hands.
In Fact, Ash was still shown to be vastly inferior to Regional Champions Until Journey's.
Does XY ring a bell? SM when he became Alola Champion?
No way in hell would Iris have been regional champion if it weren't for the games.
No one’s denying this.
Alain was a far more promising character with the possibility of this based on feats (And he's also Anime exclusive). Yet, Diantha was still retained as the Kalos champion.
Because Team Flare intruded, because Alan didn’t bother battling Diantha for the Champion title, because he didn’t have Mega Charizard X to rely on anymore wanted to go back to research.
5) Iris is obviously stronger than Gary. Not one place did I even argue or say that otherwise.
I was clearly replying to @Psajdak
The simple fact is, if Iris could be written as the Regional Champion and part of the PWC. So could Gary. There are more than enough reasons justifying the same.
Implying that Gary was pursuing the Kanto League and competitive battling again, but he isn’t.
The only real point you have is the comment Gary made back after the Silver Conference to not Compete Competitively.
Which should be the final nail to end this argument made by yours truly a.k.a. You. And by the way, you made that comment.
That said, there was different motivations for joining the PWC. It's not just to win the title. Like Alain's example back in the Lumiose Conference and now for some reason he even joined the PWC.
Yet Gary isn’t the Kanto Champion and he didn’t pursue it which is why he isn’t in the PWC. The difference is is that Alan has interest in getting stronger and battling strong Trainers from all over, just as he did when he wanted to become the strongest Mega Evolution Trainer, but Gary doesn’t. Don’t be surprised when Gary has to publicly admit he didn’t want to compete in the PWC because of this thread.
In conclusion
1) Writers are linking anime characters to their game characters. (This was done with Iris).
The anime has always taken the liberty to use elements from the games to create their own.
2) Winning the PWC title is not the only reason to take part in the PWC.

So yes, Gary could've been written as the Kanto Champ or even just a PWC contestant if they wanted.
End of argument.
 
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janejane6178

Kaleido Star FOREVER in my heart <3
Yes
It is just right than Kalos has 2 candidates . Love this fact and all 8 look very promising, except for Ash since he is using a boring team with poor development
 

Shadao

Aim to be a Pokémon Master
4) No way in hell. Iris at her max was shown to be relative to Ash in Unova. And Ash was shown to be vastly inferior to Regional Champions and the same would extend to Iris. In Fact, Ash was still shown to be vastly inferior to Regional Champions Until Journey's. No way in hell would Iris have been regional champion if it weren't for the games. Alain was a far more promising character with the possibility of this based on feats (And he's also Anime exclusive). Yet, Diantha was still retained as the Kalos champion.

5) Iris is obviously stronger than Gary. Not one place did I even argue or say that otherwise. The simple fact is, if Iris could be written as the Regional Champion and part of the PWC. So could Gary. There are more than enough reasons justifying the same.

XY marked the beginning of Ash being the Ace Trainer. And this was shortly after BW. Alain managed to defeat an Elite Four member while Ash pushed the regional Champion to the brink is a good enough indication that both Ash and Alain were just behind the Regional Champion tier. And they were only getting stronger since, so it's out of the question that Iris was following them behind after her BW adventures. Do note that Alain, Iris and Ash are all at the bottom of the Master 8 while the five regional Champions rein on top.

As for Gary, the problem is that why he is a strong trainer and still has the moves, he really doesn't have a good track record of battling. At best, I remember him being the guy who caught more Pokémon and earned more badges than Ash. That's what he's best known for in the memes. And only Goh's adventure do we see a collection quest and emphasis on catching Pokémon, so Gary is perfect there.

But battling in the PWC? I've always joked that Gary, despite all the memes, is always second best to Ash Ketchum. In every tournament that both he and Ash partaken, he's always one rank below Ash. His highest rank in the League is the same as Ash's worst rank in the whole series. In order for Gary to be a legit contender for the Master 8, he should have been seen actually participating in the PWC prior to announcement. Iris was showcased earlier just to ensure she didn't come out of nowhere in the Master 8.
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
I ain’t ready to go over all of this sir and I’m not reading any of this. You lost me when you said Trip is more of a prodigy than she is and she should of never had the chance of beating him compared to Trip. Trip should of defeated Alder. You should move along with him being more “deserving” of being Champion than she is

The same fictional character that has you upset and you’ve been arguing about over and over?

Every person here is obsessed? Your ridckoius (and yes it’s ridckoius) is getting called out on all sides. Clearly I’m not the only person who notices you uplifting Gary and downgrading Iris. You even went as far as to say that she’s worse than Trip. Anyway that’s about it.
You must resort to personal attacks because at this point you can’t argue any points. You also (when another conversation like this happens) went over the whole “obsession” thing when I called out your other weird argument in another thread. You said something dumb, got called out on it and now you’re behaving like a child and now throwing tantrums. I would quote literally everything you’ve said here proving you did say all of that but your argument is now voided
Not "ONCE" did I say Iris is worse than Trip.
I said since Trip was the "MAIN RIVAL" of Ash in Unova, it narratively made more sense for him to be the "Regional Champion". If Iris was Ash's official rival in Unova (Had taken Trip's place, this would've applied to her).
You're simply making up bs points to prove your point across and ignoring everything that is factual.

The SIMPLE Fact is Iris is Champion in the anime because of her connection with the games.
NOT 1 point of yours justifies why this isn't the case and why Iris would've still been made champion if it weren't for the games.
Since we're connecting off the games, then the same could be done with Gary.
XY marked the beginning of Ash being the Ace Trainer. And this was shortly after BW. Alain managed to defeat an Elite Four member while Ash pushed the regional Champion to the brink is a good enough indication that both Ash and Alain were just behind the Regional Champion tier. And they were only getting stronger since, so it's out of the question that Iris was following them behind after her BW adventures. Do note that Alain, Iris and Ash are all at the bottom of the Master 8 while the five regional Champions rein on top.

As for Gary, the problem is that why he is a strong trainer and still has the moves, he really doesn't have a good track record of battling. At best, I remember him being the guy who caught more Pokémon and earned more badges than Ash. That's what he's best known for in the memes. And only Goh's adventure do we see a collection quest and emphasis on catching Pokémon, so Gary is perfect there.

But battling in the PWC? I've always joked that Gary, despite all the memes, is always second best to Ash Ketchum. In every tournament that both he and Ash partaken, he's always one rank below Ash. His highest rank in the League is the same as Ash's worst rank in the whole series. In order for Gary to be a legit contender for the Master 8, he should have been seen actually participating in the PWC prior to announcement. Iris was showcased earlier just to ensure she didn't come out of nowhere in the Master 8.
1) Ash didn't push a Regional Champion to the "Brink". This was not a serious battle. If Ash pushed Diantha to the brink before Greninja even mastered its form, then are you saying Sawyer and Wolfrice are also Regional Champion tier based on their performance against a stronger Ash Greninja? Diantha was merely curious about the form and testing greninja and ended up severely underestimating it.

2) Ash only had 1 pokemon on his team that was Elite four Tier which is established based on his battle with Alain's Charizard (A confirmed E4 tier Pokemon). Ash was no where close to Elite four tier at this point.

3) While Ash did place better than Gary in the Pokemon Conferences, it doesn't automatically imply he's better. It was heavily implied that Gary outclassed Ash throughout Kanto and Gary's performance in the Kanto League was him going in cocky. He does get series before Johto and defeats Orange Leage Champion Ash and Pikachu (Who Just defeated Drake and his unbeatable Dragonite). Even the Silver Conference fight wasn't some grand slam victory. It was a very close battle and Ash was still shown to be the underdog throughout the fight.
That said, Ash at this point would be relative to Gary. To say he's better would mean Gary has no chance to defeat Ash but this isn't the case.
We literally see Gary come back and beat Ash before Sinnoh and this was a Gary who had retired while Ash competed in the Hoenn League and Battle Frontier.

In conclusion, the simple fact is that Iris was made Regional Champion because of her tie with the games. No way in hell would her character have been written as a Regional Champion exclusive to the anime. If that were the case, then Alain a much better candidate in terms of feats would've been written as a Regional Champion, but he wasn't.
So if we're going off game connections, Gary could very well have been written as a Champion or PWC contestant if they wanted to.
 

AJ97

Well-Known Member
You say this but then later on in this same message, you write:

Make up your mind.

Hypocritical much when you used the exact same power nonsense of saying Gary beat Ash’s Pikachu back in Battle Frontier to justify Gary eventually becoming Champion while in the same breath, continuously writes about there is next to no chance of Iris being a regional Chanpion because of Iris being vastly inferior to the regional Champions during her run.

In the anime, Iris wasn’t tied to a Gym. She didn’t even pursue being a Gym Leader, only wanting to defeat Drayden, the Opelucid City Gym Leader. Also, Iris isn’t a type expert. She was a rookie and is still working towards her dream of becoming Dragon Master. If she was a type expert, she would have more/only Dragon Type Pokemon on her team and they would’ve actually obeyed her.

No I didn’t (and that swimming comment was true in a joking way.) Not once have I said that. All I wrote was that we barely saw her train her Pokémon. But in that same message you wrote: From an anime perspective, there was literally nothing that suggested at the end of the series that Iris was on her way of becoming the Regional Champion.

(“Assuming that a Gen 1er became the lead writer in the anime, Gary would’ve came back as Kanto Champion.”)

Because Alan didn’t pursue battling Diantha for the Champion title.

It doesn’t apply when the writers could’ve made Gary Kanto Champion a long time ago but refused to. And there’s distinction between anime characters and their game counterparts. They’re not exactly the same and are treated and handled as different characters.


Because he wants Go to get stronger. That’s motivation for Go. What rival wants an easy target that doesn’t present a challenge?

Alan. May. Possibly Serena for her invincible DEM energy. At least those were full battles and not 1v1 or unofficial.

You say this as though we didn’t see Iris beat Ash in a tournament. Or she wasn’t shown to be a battle prodigy. She had an 100 battle winning streak before she could even become an actual Pokémon Trainer, she went toe to toe with the likes of Cynthia & Claire as Trainers, and various other Dragon type Pokémon by her own hands.

Does XY ring a bell? SM when he became Alola Champion?

No one’s denying this.

Because Team Flare intruded, because Alan didn’t bother battling Diantha for the Champion title, because he didn’t have Mega Charizard X to rely on anymore wanted to go back to research.

I was clearly replying to @Psajdak

Implying that Gary was pursuing the Kanto League and competitive battling again, but he isn’t.

Which should be the final nail to end this argument made by yours truly a.k.a. You. And by the way, you made that comment.

Yet Gary isn’t the Kanto Champion and he didn’t pursue it which is why he isn’t in the PWC. The difference is is that Alan has interest in getting stronger and battling strong Trainers from all over, just as he did when he wanted to become the strongest Mega Evolution Trainer, but Gary doesn’t. Don’t be surprised when Gary has to publicly admit he didn’t want to compete in the PWC because of this thread.

The anime has always taken the liberty to use elements from the games to create their own.

End of argument.
1) Iris went toe to toe with the likes of Cynthia? What are you smoking? I said let us assume Iris was relative to Unova Ash. The latter himself was nowhere close to Elite four or champion tier at the time.

2) XY Ash had 1 pokemon that was close to Elite four tier. The battle against Diantha was not a serious battle. If you're gauging Ash to be regional Champion tier based on that, then Wolfrice and Sawyer would be stronger than Diantha. The latter simply wanted to see this new transformation and severely underestimated Ash Greninja's strength and ended up taking unnecessary damage. Alola league Champion? Same league in which Lillie placed top 16th and James place top 8th?

3) THEN YOU LITERALLY PROVED MY POINT. If Iris is Regional Champion because of the games then they could very well have written Gary to be champion because of ties to the games. You can't say they can do it one character and not do it with another.

No need to even look at the other nonsense.
 

Shadao

Aim to be a Pokémon Master
1) Ash didn't push a Regional Champion to the "Brink". This was not a serious battle. If Ash pushed Diantha to the brink before Greninja even mastered its form, then are you saying Sawyer and Wolfrice are also Regional Champion tier based on their performance against a stronger Ash Greninja? Diantha was merely curious about the form and testing greninja and ended up severely underestimating it.
Once Diantha is actually shouting commands and put on the defensive, it has become a serious battle. And it shows that Ash is fast approaching to Alain's level, and he should since it has to be believable that Ash could actually win. Sawyer only won because Ash was too distracted and determined to get Ash-Greninja form, which made Sawyer's victory a bit of a disappointment. And Wulfric, let's just say Ash employed the wrong strategy there.

2) Ash only had 1 pokemon on his team that was Elite four Tier which is established based on his battle with Alain's Charizard (A confirmed E4 tier Pokemon). Ash was no where close to Elite four tier at this point.

Greninja started off as a young Froakie who got beaten by more powerful Pokémon. Yet Ash is able to train Greninja to be Elite Four status in a short amount of time. And Ash trains all his Pokémon on his team, so it's very likely that the rest of his team aren't so far behind. Thus, the foundation of being Champion tier is set.

3) While Ash did place better than Gary in the Pokemon Conferences, it doesn't automatically imply he's better. It was heavily implied that Gary outclassed Ash throughout Kanto and Gary's performance in the Kanto League was him going in cocky. He does get series before Johto and defeats Orange Leage Champion Ash and Pikachu (Who Just defeated Drake and his unbeatable Dragonite). Even the Silver Conference fight wasn't some grand slam victory. It was a very close battle and Ash was still shown to be the underdog throughout the fight.
That said, Ash at this point would be relative to Gary. To say he's better would mean Gary has no chance to defeat Ash but this isn't the case.
We literally see Gary come back and beat Ash before Sinnoh and this was a Gary who had retired while Ash competed in the Hoenn League and Battle Frontier.
When you look at Ash's battle in the 4th round, what allowed him to win decisively was picking a wild card with Muk, something that surprised Misty. When you look at Ash vs Gary in the Silver Conference, Ash ultimately wins by a more clever strategy using Blastoise's power against it. It establishes Ash Ketchum to be a far better battler and strategists than Gary by a long shot.

And then Ash got rivals who match in terms of battlers and strategists, like Paul. Once Paul enters the scene, Gary's only claim to fame is his exaggerated smug attitude. Paul is the rival that actually forces Ash to completely rethink his strategy in the long term.

By the time Ash beats Paul, Gary pretty much disappeared. It was clear that Gary only had advantage over the glass cannon Pikachu because whenever Ash faces a stronger rival these days, he relies on his other ace. Infernape, Greninja, Lycanroc, they face the main rival's final opponent, not Pikachu.

I'm sorry to say, but Gary will never going to be in the Master 8 because there exist more powerful rivals worthy of that title.
 

Panky..

Discord: Panky..#9281
By the time Ash beats Paul, Gary pretty much disappeared. It was clear that Gary only had advantage over the glass cannon Pikachu because whenever Ash faces a stronger rival these days, he relies on his other ace. Infernape, Greninja, Lycanroc, they face the main rival's final opponent, not Pikachu.
It's worth mentioning that Gary's only victories over Ash has been when the rat was used in 1v1s. In their full battle during the Silver Conference, Pikachu was benched and Ash went with a full team of hard hitters. This is the only time this has ever happened in the entire anime and it's pretty notable ngl.

It's something I'd like to see repeated in the M8 as well, where Pikachu is benched and saved for the climax with Leon, and they go with hard-hitters lead by Greninja and Infernape, against Alain and Cynthia respectively, without any Mon usage redundancy.
 

Lord Godwin

The Lord of Darkness
Imagine, Ash and Lwon are going to have thwir last battle, then suddenly, volo pops out with friggin giratina and then all the champions together have to face Volo
I imagined something similar with Volo/Giratina sending Ash back in time to Hisui only with Pikachu. The whole next season Ash travels around Hisui with a new Protagonist doing Gyms etc. Or Goh trying to catch Arceus to bring Ash back:-D
 
So let’s say Ash becomes like Leon and becomes a Pokemon master and when people challenges him, he mops them. Would using megas when the opponent isn’t would be seen as Ash being cheap? Asking because I’m writing a fanfic
 

JustAStatistic

Super Casual Trainer
So let’s say Ash becomes like Leon and becomes a Pokemon master and when people challenges him, he mops them. Would using megas when the opponent isn’t would be seen as Ash being cheap? Asking because I’m writing a fanfic
Remember that Leon used Dynamax against Lance and Raihan because they both could also use Dynamax, but he didn't use it against Flint.
 

satopi

Life doesn’t end, …it changes.
1) Iris went toe to toe with the likes of Cynthia? What are you smoking? I said let us assume Iris was relative to Unova Ash. The latter himself was nowhere close to Elite four or champion tier at the time.
Yes, they did battle even though Axew was getting his tail handed to him. Like Paul, Iris was offered a chance for a battle with Cynthia to improve herself and learned something. And you keep saying that Iris and BW Ash are the same after I wrote about Iris’ battling history and why she’s actually stronger than BW Ash. Nobody’s arguing that BW Ash or Iris isn’t on E4/Champion level.
2) XY Ash had 1 pokemon that was close to Elite four tier.
Pikachu can hold his own as well.
The battle against Diantha was not a serious battle. If you're gauging Ash to be regional Champion tier based on that, then Wolfrice and Sawyer would be stronger than Diantha. The latter simply wanted to see this new transformation and severely underestimated Ash Greninja's strength and ended up taking unnecessary damage. Alola league Champion? Same league in which Lillie placed top 16th and James place top 8th?
So? XY Ash still went toe to toe with Diantha and held his own. Plus made it to the finals in the Kalos League. As for Alola, Ash was able to defeat Prof Kukui as well as Tapu Koko, and yet, you think that it’s less than just because his friends competed in the first Alola League? Yet this is the same person telling me Misty gave him the strongest battle for a traveling companion? Make up your mind as far as power scales. You’re confusing.
3) THEN YOU LITERALLY PROVED MY POINT. If Iris is Regional Champion because of the games then they could very well have written Gary to be champion because of ties to the games. You can't say they can do it one character and not do it with another
You literally proved your own point. And no, it doesn’t mean the same can be done for another character.
.

No need to even look at the other nonsense.
Because you can’t refute it with your nonsense.
 
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