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Are you suprised with the results of the 2012 Pokemon World Championships?

Marbi Z

Cin-Der-Race!
According to Gameinformer.com Japan has only won 1 out of 6 divisons while Ray Rizzo is now a 3 time Pokemon World Champion! I think it's safe to say that Japan's dominance in Pokemon has diminished (at least in the tournaments anyway) So are you suprised with the final results? Discuss!
 

Nesquik3D

<-- Want a DWF
Not really, the only thing that surprises me is that Japan is getting worse. Or are we getting better? But I'm not really a huge fan of Ray Rizzo.
 

Marbi Z

Cin-Der-Race!
I'm not really a huge fan of Ray Rizzo.

Neither am I... To tell you the truth that fact that he won 3 times in a row is a bit suspisoius to say the least...
 

Nesquik3D

<-- Want a DWF
Neither am I... To tell you the truth that fact that he won 3 times in a row is a bit suspisoius to say the least...
I never really liked him since he's from Smogon, and they try too hard to convince everyone that they are better than everyone else. But now that you mention it, it is a bit scandalous that he's won 3 years in a row. Hm...
 

Kaiserin

please wake up...
I really love how every time Smogon or someone from it comes up, the topic immediately goes to how elitist and arrogant and snobbish they are. It's cute. Not to mention how suddenly it's suspicious that a reigning champion can hold his title three years straight.

For crying out loud, relax, guys. The more you gripe and moan about how stuck-up Smogon is, the more furiously butthurt you look in the process. It's not impossible for someone to win a world championship video game tournament three years in a row -- it may not be the Olympics, but unless you can come up with more reasons it's "suspicious", you're full of ****.
 

Nesquik3D

<-- Want a DWF
I really love how every time Smogon or someone from it comes up, the topic immediately goes to how elitist and arrogant and snobbish they are. It's cute. Not to mention how suddenly it's suspicious that a reigning champion can hold his title three years straight.

For crying out loud, relax, guys. The more you gripe and moan about how stuck-up Smogon is, the more furiously butthurt you look in the process. It's not impossible for someone to win a world championship video game tournament three years in a row -- it may not be the Olympics, but unless you can come up with more reasons it's "suspicious", you're full of ****.

Okay, maybe I was a bit whiney, but I just find it strange how NO ONE in the whole world has managed to beat Ray Rizzo in the VGC in three years.
 

pitty_pat

passionate nerd
Not really, the only thing that surprises me is that Japan is getting worse. Or are we getting better? But I'm not really a huge fan of Ray Rizzo.

I think we are just getting better. In the early years of the VGC it was relatively unknown and nobody really cared about it (in the competitive sense). It slowly grew over the years and began to infiltrate Smogon as more and more people began taking it seriously. I was always a VGC fan, and I remember how hard it was to find others to talk to or help out with team advice in the years of 09 and even 10. Today there is double battling on simulators and Smogon treats vgc as a legitimate tier, even now opening their tutoring program to it. There has been such enormous growth in vgc interest over the last few years and this has brought with it many more great players. In short a lot more people play it now, and competition creates better skilled players. I have no idea what the competitive community is like in Japan, but it must not be as active or dedicated as the players of smogon are.
Also I really like Ray Rizzo, I don't know him or anything, but he must be on heck of a trainer. Anyone who can do what he has done deserves respect from the pokemon community.
 

jstinftw!

hey trainer
I really love how every time Smogon or someone from it comes up, the topic immediately goes to how elitist and arrogant and snobbish they are. It's cute. Not to mention how suddenly it's suspicious that a reigning champion can hold his title three years straight.

For crying out loud, relax, guys. The more you gripe and moan about how stuck-up Smogon is, the more furiously butthurt you look in the process. It's not impossible for someone to win a world championship video game tournament three years in a row -- it may not be the Olympics, but unless you can come up with more reasons it's "suspicious", you're full of ****.

Pretty much this.

Also, Ray Rizzo doesn't really practice with Smogon, seeing as most of Smogon doesn't even participate in VGC battles. They're so different, and most Smogon players don't even touch their DS cartridges anymore.

That being said, the only thing I was surprised about was how badly Japan did. Japan shaped this year's metagame; they brought bulky Pokemon that relied on a lot of setting up into play versus Europe's more offensive style and America's "counter all' strategies. They brought Swagger into play, not to mention meet up weekly to discuss and playtest with each other. They should have made a stronger presence this year's Worlds.

But I don't think they would have made it to the Finals; everyone was setting up to counter them. Ray and a couple of his friends flew over to Japan and watched the Japanese Nationals, and then they were streamed online as well by the company that held the tournament. I meant it when I said everyone was setting up to counter them. Japan is the most watched Nationals because their players are extremely good; they come up with all these strategies that us American players can't fathom. We're too focused on countering everything, which has obviously worked for us. If we hadn't seen Japan Nats, we very well could have lost. Swagger was such a huge thing this Worlds, and that was a Japanese thing. If we didn't see them use it, we wouldn't have known to use/prepare against it, and that would have been an easy win.

That being said, I'm not entirely suprised by the finalists; Ray Rizzo is obviously the best VGC Player in the World. He understands rogue strategies as well as the more standard variety, and accounts all of that into his own team. He played standard Pokemon, but the sets were very much rogue. Wolfe has also been a very strong contender this year. Wolfe is the epitome of rogue; he knows how to make Pokemon work.

What surprised me was how poorly Wolfe played. The match should not have been 2-0 for Ray, both by forfeit. Ray's good, but Wolfe is also very good. There definitely should have been a third round had Wolfe not misplayed so much. And Wolfe acknowledged this; he admits he didn't play his best. I imagine the pressure finally got to him; he'd been doing so well, many people expected him to usurp Ray's throne, and he was being streamed live. Tell me that wouldn't creep you out. I really think he should have brought Exeggutor with him as well. That would have shaped the game differentl, since Exeggutor is the epitome of rogue.

All in all, I'm not surprised America took so many wins. Japan was somewhat expected, but I'd thought maybe they had something else up their sleeve. Korea doesn't have a whole lot going for it just yet since they're new, while Europe has yet to bring in a really scary contender.
 

Sigilyph2

Trainer of Champions
I watched the round 3 video and he played very well. His move sets were great and using Trick Room with a Groudon beside him was a good move I didn't see coming. A lot of critical hits also helped, though.
 

Nesquik3D

<-- Want a DWF
Pretty much this.

Also, Ray Rizzo doesn't really practice with Smogon, seeing as most of Smogon doesn't even participate in VGC battles. They're so different, and most Smogon players don't even touch their DS cartridges anymore.

That being said, the only thing I was surprised about was how badly Japan did. Japan shaped this year's metagame; they brought bulky Pokemon that relied on a lot of setting up into play versus Europe's more offensive style and America's "counter all' strategies. They brought Swagger into play, not to mention meet up weekly to discuss and playtest with each other. They should have made a stronger presence this year's Worlds.

But I don't think they would have made it to the Finals; everyone was setting up to counter them. Ray and a couple of his friends flew over to Japan and watched the Japanese Nationals, and then they were streamed online as well by the company that held the tournament. I meant it when I said everyone was setting up to counter them. Japan is the most watched Nationals because their players are extremely good; they come up with all these strategies that us American players can't fathom. We're too focused on countering everything, which has obviously worked for us. If we hadn't seen Japan Nats, we very well could have lost. Swagger was such a huge thing this Worlds, and that was a Japanese thing. If we didn't see them use it, we wouldn't have known to use/prepare against it, and that would have been an easy win.

That being said, I'm not entirely suprised by the finalists; Ray Rizzo is obviously the best VGC Player in the World. He understands rogue strategies as well as the more standard variety, and accounts all of that into his own team. He played standard Pokemon, but the sets were very much rogue. Wolfe has also been a very strong contender this year. Wolfe is the epitome of rogue; he knows how to make Pokemon work.

What surprised me was how poorly Wolfe played. The match should not have been 2-0 for Ray, both by forfeit. Ray's good, but Wolfe is also very good. There definitely should have been a third round had Wolfe not misplayed so much. And Wolfe acknowledged this; he admits he didn't play his best. I imagine the pressure finally got to him; he'd been doing so well, many people expected him to usurp Ray's throne, and he was being streamed live. Tell me that wouldn't creep you out. I really think he should have brought Exeggutor with him as well. That would have shaped the game differentl, since Exeggutor is the epitome of rogue.

All in all, I'm not surprised America took so many wins. Japan was somewhat expected, but I'd thought maybe they had something else up their sleeve. Korea doesn't have a whole lot going for it just yet since they're new, while Europe has yet to bring in a really scary contender.
I'm not exactly understanding what you mean by "rogue" strategies. Do you mean super original movesets or having a Pokemon do something it's not built for?
 

MugoUrth

Bibarel's adorable.
Pretty much this.

Also, Ray Rizzo doesn't really practice with Smogon, seeing as most of Smogon doesn't even participate in VGC battles. They're so different, and most Smogon players don't even touch their DS cartridges anymore.

That being said, the only thing I was surprised about was how badly Japan did. Japan shaped this year's metagame; they brought bulky Pokemon that relied on a lot of setting up into play versus Europe's more offensive style and America's "counter all' strategies. They brought Swagger into play, not to mention meet up weekly to discuss and playtest with each other. They should have made a stronger presence this year's Worlds.

But I don't think they would have made it to the Finals; everyone was setting up to counter them. Ray and a couple of his friends flew over to Japan and watched the Japanese Nationals, and then they were streamed online as well by the company that held the tournament. I meant it when I said everyone was setting up to counter them. Japan is the most watched Nationals because their players are extremely good; they come up with all these strategies that us American players can't fathom. We're too focused on countering everything, which has obviously worked for us. If we hadn't seen Japan Nats, we very well could have lost. Swagger was such a huge thing this Worlds, and that was a Japanese thing. If we didn't see them use it, we wouldn't have known to use/prepare against it, and that would have been an easy win.

That being said, I'm not entirely suprised by the finalists; Ray Rizzo is obviously the best VGC Player in the World. He understands rogue strategies as well as the more standard variety, and accounts all of that into his own team. He played standard Pokemon, but the sets were very much rogue. Wolfe has also been a very strong contender this year. Wolfe is the epitome of rogue; he knows how to make Pokemon work.

What surprised me was how poorly Wolfe played. The match should not have been 2-0 for Ray, both by forfeit. Ray's good, but Wolfe is also very good. There definitely should have been a third round had Wolfe not misplayed so much. And Wolfe acknowledged this; he admits he didn't play his best. I imagine the pressure finally got to him; he'd been doing so well, many people expected him to usurp Ray's throne, and he was being streamed live. Tell me that wouldn't creep you out. I really think he should have brought Exeggutor with him as well. That would have shaped the game differentl, since Exeggutor is the epitome of rogue.

All in all, I'm not surprised America took so many wins. Japan was somewhat expected, but I'd thought maybe they had something else up their sleeve. Korea doesn't have a whole lot going for it just yet since they're new, while Europe has yet to bring in a really scary contender.

Honestly, I'm more disappointing than surprised. The more I hear about America's dominance in sports, games, and everything else, the less impressed I become when America wins something.
 

sizida

CoconutIsTheAnswer
I thought I seen this thread before...

Oh it was last year.

I won't be surprise of who wins or not. One wrong move and that's it.
 

Excitable Boy

is a metaphor
yeah tbh I really wasn't paying attention

Okay, maybe I was a bit whiney, but I just find it strange how NO ONE in the whole world has managed to beat Ray Rizzo in the VGC in three years.

I BET HIS POKEMON ARE T3H RNG

I'm not exactly understanding what you mean by "rogue" strategies. Do you mean super original movesets or having a Pokemon do something it's not built for?

Movesets/teams that aren't widely used, though are still perfectly usable.
 

Nesquik3D

<-- Want a DWF
yeah tbh I really wasn't paying attention



I BET HIS POKEMON ARE T3H RNG



Movesets/teams that aren't widely used, though are still perfectly usable.

Oh, thanks for clearing that up!
Although I'm not a fan of Rizzo, I must say that he is the greatest VGC competitor ever. It will be a long time before somebody beats his record. But the question is, when will he be beaten?
 

Jaguartail

Well-Known Member
I'm suprised that Japan is doing so badly, but other than that, the results are nothing too suprising.
 

jstinftw!

hey trainer
I watched the round 3 video and he played very well. His move sets were great and using Trick Room with a Groudon beside him was a good move I didn't see coming. A lot of critical hits also helped, though.
Uhm... I think you're watching the wrong Finals. XD

I'm not exactly understanding what you mean by "rogue" strategies. Do you mean super original movesets or having a Pokemon do something it's not built for?
For Ray, definitely just the movesets. He took a team of standard Pokemon and used sets that were extremely uncommon on them. Last year (2011) Ray acutally used some non-Standard Pokemon in Gothitelle and Escavalier. Wolfe went rogue by using non-standard Pokemon in Heatran (to an extent; Heatran saw a lot of play during Worlds, whereas prior it wasnt anywhere near as popular) and, Exeggutor; NO ONE used Exggutor outside of Wolfe.

The important part here is that they knew how to use these Pokemon. I saw someone try to run Exeggutor and did pretty bad. Wolfe made it to top 2. Ray, as I mentioned, used sets that were set up to take on the rest of the metagame with as little problem as possible.

Honestly, I'm more disappointing than surprised. The more I hear about America's dominance in sports, games, and everything else, the less impressed I become when America wins something.
I guess? I dont think it really see the connect. Plus it kind of degrades the individual's achievement. Sorry if I'm calling you out or anything, I just don't really understand why it's a bad thing...?

I thought I seen this thread before...

Oh it was last year.

I won't be surprise of who wins or not. One wrong move and that's it.
Kinda. I mean. Some people make like 5 wrong moves and still win so.

Oh, thanks for clearing that up!
Although I'm not a fan of Rizzo, I must say that he is the greatest VGC competitor ever. It will be a long time before somebody beats his record. But the question is, when will he be beaten?
Honestly, I'm betting this is his last year winning. Wolfe had the best chances this year of beating him, he just misplayed really badly. I'm thinking next year, someone (possibly Wolfe but who knows) will finally be able to beat him. Not saying that he's a bad player, but three years is a long time, and everyone is actually looking at Ray now.

2010 came as a surprise. Ok, he's good. First American cool, but it's probably a fluke. Good year.
2011 came. Oh. Ok, he's good I guess, but he probably fluked again. After all, this was a very limited metagame.
2012 came. No one can really question him anymore. He outplayed Wolfe, one of the best players in the VGC, the entire 2 rounds. He only lost once, but that person didn't make it past Top 8, I think? His team building is obviously tight. His playing skills are obviously tight. This is the most diverse and expansive the metagame is ever going to get, and he won. Three different metagames, all sorts of rules. Ray is the man to watch out for.

That said, Wolfe, the current biggest contender for his rival, will not likely crack under the same pressure. Wolfe lost to Ray for Top 8 in 2011. Wolfe was going into this battle unsure if he could pull the win, but at the same time, wanted to prove that he could do well. All the pressure was on him, and while he misplayed badly, they were mostly bad predictions. Wolfe made plays that would have worked had Ray not foreseen them and acted accordingly. But this upcoming year, Wolfe will probably be more ready. Wolfe saw his mistakes, and what that could cost him, and will likely come in more confident this year.

But that's just my observations/predictions. It very likely could not turn out this way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05iN0hq7lUk&feature=channel&list=UL

Posting this so everyone can see the finals.

I'm surprised he won for the third time. And why do I have a feeling he uses Pokegen?
That's a good idea haha.

As for the Pokegen thing, I highly doubt it. Two reasons.

1.) Pokemon Company International invests loads of money into this whole event. Just SHIPPING the Floating Pikachu cost about $3000. And the winners of each flight gets a bunch of prizes. A scholarship, a free ticket and flight to next year's Worlds, etc. They are very adamant about the anti-cheating thing, and for their 3 time Masters Champion to be using hacked Pokemon would look very bad on them. Coming in #1 3 times in a row, they more than likely have checked his Pokemon for legitimacy. That's way too much money on the line for them to be lenient. Proof? I know a lot of people who have been DQ'd cos they used BW2 Pokemon (movesets, Ability, etc). Why is that proof? Cos BW2 Pokemon are currently illegal. They do check, thus Ray using hacked Pokemon would be very difficult for him to slide past.
2.) Ray doesn't breed his own Pokemon. Neither does Wolfe, nor half the "professional" Pokemon VGC players. First of all, there have friends who are willing to do that for them. They have breeding circles and such. Second, there are multiple threads where they can get free Pokemon so long as they are for the VGC. Not hacked mind you. Again, that's illegal in terms of Pokemon VGC. They just do it cos they're nice and they want to help expand the community partaking in the VGC.

So it's highly unlikely Ray is using Pokegen.


I'm suprised that Japan is doing so badly, but other than that, the results are nothing too suprising.
Hahah Right? I honestly expected them to do a bit better. I had a lot of hope for Junpei, the other guy (too lazy to get his name) and Sejun. But no, they didn't cut very well this year. Again, most likely cos they were pretty much player targetted. Everyone was gearing up for what the Japanese might bring.

Sorry if I sound pretentious or whatever. I'm just really into this metagame, and I follow it pretty closely (imagine the way some people are for football). I follow multiple sites, listen to various podcasts, and I'm a part of a few forums. I even took over for the current VGC Thread in the Competitive Subforum. Again, I'm not trying to be rude and I sincerely apologize if I come off as rude. :(
 
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iFi Salamander

I'm a vampire!
What shocks me is how a Smogonite was able to adapt to VGC on that level.

As for the Pokegen argument, he probably just does what I do and hacks the Pokemons IV and nature, then trains the EVs as he would.
 

Excitable Boy

is a metaphor
What shocks me is how a Smogonite was able to adapt to VGC on that level.

What do you mean, adapt? Smogon basically invented competitive VGC.

As for the Pokegen argument, he probably just does what I do and hacks the Pokemons IV and nature, then trains the EVs as he would.

He probably trades for Pokemon obtained via PRNG manipulation, since that's the only untraceable and reliable method possible for obtaining flawless IVs, primarily because it's not actually cheating.
 

jstinftw!

hey trainer
What shocks me is how a Smogonite was able to adapt to VGC on that level.

As for the Pokegen argument, he probably just does what I do and hacks the Pokemons IV and nature, then trains the EVs as he would.
What a person said.

What do you mean, adapt? Smogon basically invented competitive VGC.

He probably trades for Pokemon obtained via PRNG manipulation, since that's the only untraceable and reliable method possible for obtaining flawless IVs, primarily because it's not actually cheating.
I wouldn't say they invented competitive VGC. I mean, the Japanese did/do it completely separate from Smogon, and they kind of set the standard for VGC.

Also, a large majority of that Smogon community doesn't really interact with Smogon anymore, since they don't really like how Smogon runs things in the VGC department. They kind of shaft it, and only acknowledge it because it has to to stay relevant for Doubles, plus some people really do enjoy it. But most of the Competitive VGC Players spend next to no time on Smogon anymore, having moved over to the self-run Nugget Bridge, where they focus on VGC. Of course there is some overlap, but for the most part, VGC stays with the VGC players, and they don't really do Smogon quite as much anymore. In short, Smogon is no longer the hub for Competitive VGC, its just well known, and in many cases, introduces VGC to people.
 
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